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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 82 32.03%
Trump Trump-umphant. 88 34.38%
Inclusive 18 7.03%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 74 28.91%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 10 3.91%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-09-2019, 01:33 PM   #4027
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Some people think almost everything government does is bad and some don't. I think it is as simple as that.
I don’t see it that way. I think most things government does are good, or at least well intentioned. But I also think most of those same things are done badly and could be done better in other ways (from fully private to private-public partnerships).

When someone proposes something, my first question after agreeing it is a good idea, is “is this appropriate for government?” And then, “if it is, at what level of government (local, state, federal) is it best accomplished?”. In this way I rarely get to a “yes” for federal involvement.

When I lived in CA and OR, states with a lot of ballot initiatives, that is how I approached those initiatives, too. I voted “no” on a lot of good ideas, because I thought they should belong in the local or non-government category. I’m a big supporter of the arts, for example, but strongly believe government should stay out of them.
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      12-09-2019, 01:35 PM   #4028
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I still can't believe we are talking about this, but hey go internet! There is no way the states on their own would of built as robust as a system or as efficiently etc. Some would've chose not to or done it differently here and there and it wouldn't of been nearly as consistent as a transportation/commerce system as we have today.

Yes, some people got screwed as always happens in change. But, the economic growth that came from it and the new communities that sprouted up along the routes is tremendously positive for the country.
The interstate and national highway systems are among the things I would say “yes” to federal standards and funding for. But not states, county, and local roads and bridges.
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      12-09-2019, 01:35 PM   #4029
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US automakers support something like 8 million jobs. You can't just let 8 million jobs disappear.
Please show me in the US Constitution where it is the federal government's responsibility to ensure folks who work building automobiles have the right to a job?

I'll wait.
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      12-09-2019, 01:36 PM   #4030
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Matt Gaetz looks and sounds like every Scumbag, asshole Fraternity leader from every College Movie ever made LOL!
He's literally the Poster Child for the Republican Party.

And then there's Castor. Why does he look Constipated AF every time we see him?
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      12-09-2019, 01:36 PM   #4031
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Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
I don’t see it that way. I think most things government does are good, or at least well intentioned. But I also think most of those same things are done badly and could be done better in other ways (from fully private to private-public partnerships).

When someone proposes something, my first question after agreeing it is a good idea, is “is this appropriate for government?” And then, “if it is, at what level of government (local, state, federal) is it best accomplished?”. In this way I rarely get to a “yes” for federal involvement.

When I lived in CA and OR, states with a lot of ballot initiatives, that is how I approached those initiatives, too. I voted “no” on a lot of good ideas, because I thought they should belong in the local or non-government category. I’m a big supporter of the arts, for example, but strongly believe government should stay out of them.
I'm not saying everyone, but there is a decent amount of people that do think that way.

And like you, everyone obviously hasn't different thoughts on what government should be or shouldn't be involved in.

Like building the greatest transportation system the world had ever seen at the time for defense and expansion/efficiency of commerce.
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      12-09-2019, 01:38 PM   #4032
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Matt Gaetz looks and sounds like every Scumbag, asshole Fraternity leader from every College Movie ever made LOL!
He's literally the Poster Child for the Republican Party.

And then there's Castor. Why does he look Constipated AF every time we see him?
It sucks because I really like Gaetz when it isn't about Trump. He is one of the few Republicans that recognizes certain very large problems and has ideas on how to mitigate them.
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      12-09-2019, 01:44 PM   #4033
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Please show me in the US Constitution where it is the federal government's responsibility to ensure folks who work building automobiles have the right to a job?

I'll wait.
Didn't you serve in the military? I'm a little surprised to hear how little you want to be a part of something larger than yourself.

This country would have looked like the beginning of Terminator 2 if we allowed the automakers and the banks to fail.
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      12-09-2019, 01:47 PM   #4034
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm not saying everyone, but there is a decent amount of people that do think that way.

And like you, everyone obviously hasn't different thoughts on what government should be or shouldn't be involved in.

Like building the greatest transportation system the world had ever seen at the time for defense and expansion/efficiency of commerce.
Well, let's be fair... we had seen a great transportation system once before and aimed to emulate it, though it's very difficult to give credit to its biggest champion.
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      12-09-2019, 01:47 PM   #4035
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I still can't believe we are talking about this, but hey go internet! There is no way the states on their own would of built as robust as a system or as efficiently etc. Some would've chose not to or done it differently here and there and it wouldn't of been nearly as consistent as a transportation/commerce system as we have today.

Yes, some people got screwed as always happens in change. But, the economic growth that came from it and the new communities that sprouted up along the routes is tremendously positive for the country.
Efficent? Stop by LA or Jersey the interstate are constantly clog up and anyone who has a navigation sense will tell you the cr, us, local and state roads flow far better then the IS
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      12-09-2019, 01:48 PM   #4036
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Well, let's be fair... we had seen a great transportation system once before but it's very difficult to give credit to its biggest champion.
That wasn’t even close to what the US ended up building, but yes they had the original idea, which is where Ike got it from.

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Efficent? Stop by LA or Jersey the interstate are constantly clog up and anyone who has a navigation sense will tell you the cr, us, local and state roads flow far better then the IS
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      12-09-2019, 01:53 PM   #4037
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Efficent? Stop by LA or Jersey the interstate are constantly clog up and anyone who has a navigation sense will tell you the cr, us, local and state roads flow far better then the IS
Hence the need to invest further in our infrastructure. We've outgrown much of it. The problem is that the parts that are most in need also happen to be in areas where widening is not a feasible option. Just looking at CT, I-95 faces a massive bottleneck in the connection of New England to the rest of the country. It needs more lanes but it runs through some of the most expensive real estate in the country. It's also the oldest part of the country which did not allow for much planning with regard to future transportation needs. Newer, less populated areas do not have this issue. It's a conundrum but it's only going to get worse.
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      12-09-2019, 01:58 PM   #4038
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1) Yup - anyone who thought this would turn out different is a fool.

2) The statement about how the votes will be used in the election applies to congress as well. History shows that anytime a president is impeached and survives, the other party takes a beating.

3) Who cares regarding which subsidy is larger - ag or auto. Neither should have a subsidy of anything over $1. Why is the federal government giving money that they took from me in the form of taxes to any private business? This is crony capitalism at it's worst.
The ag subsidies used to have a populist, agrarian sentimental appeal to them when there were millions of Americans living on farms. The bucolic image of the family farm was heartwarming. But most of today's "farmers" live in Beijing or in posh condos overlooking Central Park. The subsidies long ago outlived their purpose, which was a bad idea even then.
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      12-09-2019, 02:02 PM   #4039
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Hence the need to invest further in our infrastructure. We've outgrown much of it. The problem is that the parts that are most in need also happen to be in areas where widening is not a feasible option. Just looking at CT, I-95 faces a massive bottleneck in the connection of New England to the rest of the country. It needs more lanes but it runs through some of the most expensive real estate in the country. It's also the oldest part of the country which did not allow for much planning with regard to future transportation needs. Newer, less populated areas do not have this issue. It's a conundrum but it's only going to get worse.
No no no, just let the state spend even more money making a shit ton of two/four lane roads all over the place. Stop mass transit projects and ideas etc etc. That'll fix the congestion.
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      12-09-2019, 02:07 PM   #4040
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No no no, just let the state spend even more money making a shit ton of two/four lane roads all over the place. Stop mass transit projects and ideas etc etc. That'll fix the congestion.
Route 1 runs right through my town and continues all the way to Key West. I think if I left tonight I would get there by the next US Centennial.
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      12-09-2019, 02:53 PM   #4041
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No no no, just let the state spend even more money making a shit ton of two/four lane roads all over the place. Stop mass transit projects and ideas etc etc. That'll fix the congestion.
As much as I try to adhere to minimal government principles, I see examples where government has provided something that didn't/wouldn't otherwise exist and is of obvious ongoing common benefit. Spent the weekend in Chicago, and the public transportation is so far advanced from the Twin Cities of Minnesota. Ditto for Munich, where I was in October. Fantastic public transportation for all to use - and everyone uses it. Unlike so many boondoggle public transportation systems I've seen in the US that cost billions of dollars but are used by thousands of people.
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      12-09-2019, 03:00 PM   #4042
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
As much as I try to adhere to minimal government principles, I see examples where government has provided something that didn't/wouldn't otherwise exist and is of obvious ongoing common benefit. Spent the weekend in Chicago, and the public transportation is so far advanced from the Twin Cities of Minnesota. Ditto for Munich, where I was in October. Fantastic public transportation for all to use - and everyone uses it. Unlike so many boondoggle public transportation systems I've seen in the US that cost billions of dollars but are used by thousands of people.
I was in Paris last month and was shocked by how fantastic their transit system is as well. Very impressive.
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      12-09-2019, 03:02 PM   #4043
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
As much as I try to adhere to minimal government principles, I see examples where government has provided something that didn't/wouldn't otherwise exist and is of obvious ongoing common benefit. Spent the weekend in Chicago, and the public transportation is so far advanced from the Twin Cities of Minnesota. Ditto for Munich, where I was in October. Fantastic public transportation for all to use - and everyone uses it. Unlike so many boondoggle public transportation systems I've seen in the US that cost billions of dollars but are used by thousands of people.
DART in Dallas......seemingly a boondoggle.
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      12-09-2019, 03:04 PM   #4044
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I was in Paris last month and was shocked by how fantastic their transit system is as well. Very impressive.
And I get the argument that - hypothetically - private concerns could have done the same, possibly cheaper. But they didn't. They don't, or won't.
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      12-09-2019, 03:08 PM   #4045
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The running costs and authorities involved are simply staggering. Many railroads in the US were private at one point but failed along the way. It's hard to run across so many jurisdictions without being state-run, I imagine.
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      12-09-2019, 03:10 PM   #4046
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I said this before, the sooner you accept Trump, the sooner the healing process begins.
I xant wait for the left's meltdown when Trump gets re-elected in 2020.
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      12-09-2019, 03:12 PM   #4047
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Somehow an ad just popped up in this thread.
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      12-09-2019, 03:26 PM   #4048
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Didn't you serve in the military? I'm a little surprised to hear how little you want to be a part of something larger than yourself.

This country would have looked like the beginning of Terminator 2 if we allowed the automakers and the banks to fail.
Look - we are going to disagree on this subject.

To call into question my loyalty to the view of what America should be, however, is just sad.

How many bomb fragments do you have in your body protecting this country? Because I have several. In fact, my worst injury came subsequent to my military service when I worked for the government in another capacity, so I'd appreciate you forgoing the lectures.

That said - the 'too big to fail' argument and comparing it to the apocalyptic wasteland of the Terminator movies is absolutely ridiculous. By that account, when Eastern Airlines, Pan Am, Standard Oil, Enron, and PaineWebber all ceased operations - the economy should have collapsed - since all were of comparable size and scope to the companies you describe.
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