2020 GT500 vs. M4

[minn19]

Originally Posted by MSport28

I think some people forget on this thread and the M3/M4 vs. GT350 thread that just because two cars cost about the same money does not make them competitors. I've owned multiple Mustangs over the years, including a Shelby, and would not hesitate to buy another one. In fact, I have an allocation in process on a 2019 GT350R. The point is, Ford isn't building the Mustang to compete against BMW, so panel fitment, perfect paint, and leather-wrapped interiors aren't "necessary" in a Mustang. Sure, some will argue that if they're going to spend $65-80k on a car they expect a certain level of quality, but the Ford and the BMW are built for entirely different purposes. If I want to cruise in style, blow the doors off most anything beside supercars, carve canyons on the weekend, and sit in traffic during the week, the M3 is wonderful. But if I want an old school muscle car with a screaming V8, mechanical feel, and the ability to track on the weekend without fear of getting a rock chip, the Shelby's are my choice.

This has been fought over a lot in the GT350 forums as well. I don't care if it is a 15k Chevy Cruze or 60k ish GT350 or M3/4. It shouldn't be unreasonable to think that panels light up correctly (not perfect) and the paint is reasonably free of runs and overspray. Especially by a massive car company like Ford that invented the mass produced automobile. As you said a base M3/4 and GT350 are not that far apart in price. So why the wide gap in build quality?

My second GT350 was so bad that my ceramic coating installer/detailer swore my car was in an accident and repaired shoddily by a second rate body shop. He still thinks that. That is just plain lazy and unacceptable level of workmanship in any priced car. All of that being said, I was able to look over the quality issues, but the reliability ones I couldn't and moved on.

It's funny you say Ford and Mustang owners don't care about certain things. The 19 GT350s are getting spruced upped wrapped interiors, blind spot tech and upgraded stereo options. So some must care when it enters a certain price range or Ford wouldn't be doing it.

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by minn19

This has been fought over a lot in the GT350 forums as well. I don't care if it is a 15k Chevy Cruze or 60k ish GT350 or M3/4. It shouldn't be unreasonable to think that panels light up correctly (not perfect) and the paint is reasonably free of runs and overspray. Especially by a massive car company like Ford that invented the mass produced automobile. As you said a base M3/4 and GT350 are not that far apart in price. So why the wide gap in build quality?

My second GT350 was so bad that my ceramic coating installer/detailer swore my car was in an accident and repaired shoddily by a second rate body shop. He still thinks that. That is just plain lazy and unacceptable level of workmanship in any priced car. All of that being said, I was able to look over the quality issues, but the reliability ones I couldn't and moved on.

It's funny you say Ford and Mustang owners don't care about certain things. The 19 GT350s are getting spruced upped wrapped interiors, blind spot tech and upgraded stereo options. So some must care when it enters a certain price range or Ford wouldn't be doing it.

Agree 100%. A cavalier attitude towards body panel and paint imperfections signifies a general attitude towards mechanical tolerances and the quality of more important parts of the car. In my observation, the reliability issues you face often go with the aesthetic issues.

Also - Honda and Toyota have been getting it right for 30 years on sub $10k cars, no one has any excuse for these kinds of issues.

That said, this GT500 very well may be the first American car i ever own. We’ll see.

[Graves]

Owned mustangs my whole life. Sure they're not the best quality in the world but they're still fun and cheap to make fast. What I have learned though is how much BMW owners judge and complain about everything else. This is my first BMW and I absolutely love it. Wouldn't trade it for much. But, this GT500 is a monster and whether the panels line up perfectly or the paint has orange peel, you're getting Super Car Performance for dirt cheap compared to other super cars. A simple CAI, L/Ts, smaller pulley and a tune and you have an 800+rwhp car that will run circles around the majority of cars to include some heavy priced tagged ones for under $75k. Seriously, try not to be so snobby your whole lives.

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by Graves

Owned mustangs my whole life. Sure they're not the best quality in the world but they're still fun and cheap to make fast. What I have learned though is how much BMW owners judge and complain about everything else. This is my first BMW and I absolutely love it. Wouldn't trade it for much. But, this GT500 is a monster and whether the panels line up perfectly or the paint has orange peel, you're getting Super Car Performance for dirt cheap compared to other super cars. A simple CAI, L/Ts, smaller pulley and a tune and you have an 800+rwhp car that will run circles around the majority of cars to include some heavy priced tagged ones for under $75k. Seriously, try not to be so snobby your whole lives.

Really? Is it being snobby to say ‘hmmm...if Ford was ok with shitty paint quality, what else are they ok with being shitty?’

Just to be clear, i’m not judging a car that’s not even out yet. And i understand that to get that much performance for what Shelbys have traditionally sold for, you’ve got to live with some corners being cut by design. But that means i’m ok with a Mustang having cheap plastics, not with it falling apart.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Graves

Owned mustangs my whole life. Sure they're not the best quality in the world but they're still fun and cheap to make fast. What I have learned though is how much BMW owners judge and complain about everything else. This is my first BMW and I absolutely love it. Wouldn't trade it for much. But, this GT500 is a monster and whether the panels line up perfectly or the paint has orange peel, you're getting Super Car Performance for dirt cheap compared to other super cars. A simple CAI, L/Ts, smaller pulley and a tune and you have an 800+rwhp car that will run circles around the majority of cars to include some heavy priced tagged ones for under $75k. Seriously, try not to be so snobby your whole lives.

Snobby? I bailed on the M3/4 platform for the GT350. The first one I was assisted out of had a hole in the back windshield weather stripping so it leaked when it rained/car wash. That was one of many issues leading to an engine replacement. I gave them a second chance thinking I got unlucky with the first one and then the second GT350 ran into similiar issues.

Had I not had those issues I’d still have my GT350. As for build quality we are not talking about barely misaligned panels/gaps. Nor simple orange peel, which all cars have today because of regulations/materials. It was considerably worse than that. Search bumper sag on the GT350s. That is one of many glaring quality issues that shouldn’t appear in this day and age on any modern car.

I loved the drive of my GT350 and it was the most fun car to drive I’ve ever owned. I’m sure (aside from the 4K plus weight) the GT500 will be a blast as well. But, until I see the overall culture change at Ford I will not be buying their cars for awhile. It has absolutely nothing to do with caring about which badge is on the car.

[Graves]

Originally Posted by Darth One

Really? Is it being snobby to say ‘hmmm...if Ford was ok with shitty paint quality, what else are they ok with being shitty?’

Just to be clear, i’m not judging a car that’s not even out yet. And i understand that to get that much performance for what Shelbys have traditionally sold for, you’ve got to live with some corners being cut by design. But that means i’m ok with a Mustang having cheap plastics, not with it falling apart.

When has it fell apart? You have crank hub issue galore all over these forums. So much fear that many aren't modding their M's based on that fear. Granted, I know that failure is a very small percentage, but so is the GT350 having oil consumption issues. In fact, mod the M3/4 and mod the GT350. See what car has serious mechanical failure first. I bet it's the M3/4. Anyhow, it's Ford. You get what you pay for. How much do you think BMW would charge for a 700+hp, DCT car, with the brakes, suspension, and CF pieces Ford is? Double what Ford is. Fords focused on providing cheap means of going fast. BMW is not.

[Graves]

Originally Posted by minn19

Snobby? I bailed on the M3/4 platform for the GT350. The first one I was assisted out of had a hole in the back windshield weather stripping so it leaked when it rained/car wash. That was one of many issues leading to an engine replacement. I gave them a second chance thinking I got unlucky with the first one and then the second GT350 ran into similiar issues.

Had I not had those issues I'd still have my GT350. As for build quality we are not talking about barely misaligned panels/gaps. Nor simple orange peel, which all cars have today because of regulations/materials. It was considerably worse than that. Search bumper sag on the GT350s. That is one of many glaring quality issues that shouldn't appear in this day and age on any modern car.

I loved the drive of my GT350 and it was the most fun car to drive I've ever owned. I'm sure (aside from the 4K plus weight) the GT500 will be a blast as well. But, until I see the overall culture change at Ford I will not be buying their cars for awhile. It has absolutely nothing to do with caring about which badge is on the car.

You get what you pay for. Like you kind of said, if you can't live with it, then I guess it's not for you. Just sit back and watch as they blow by you and slam into crowds of innocent women and children. Heard a rumor, ISIS was going to use C&C as a platform for terrorism. Scary stuff!

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by Graves

When has it fell apart? You have crank hub issue galore all over these forums. So much fear that many aren't modding their M's based on that fear. Granted, I know that failure is a very small percentage, but so is the GT350 having oil consumption issues. In fact, mod the M3/4 and mod the GT350. See what car has serious mechanical failure first. I bet it's the M3/4. Anyhow, it's Ford. You get what you pay for. How much do you think BMW would charge for a 700+hp, DCT car, with the brakes, suspension, and CF pieces Ford is? Double what Ford is. Fords focused on providing cheap means of going fast. BMW is not.

My dude. You've taken the last two words of my post and spun it off into a different rant.

Let me restate my point again. The guy I quoted (see above) said that poor fit and finish is indicative of poor reliability. I said I 100% agree and there is no excuse in this day and age for that.

Did you read where I said I'd still probably buy the car? I am still interested in the GT500 but am just concerned about these issues. He says he had two Shelbys fall apart (a little creative license with those words on my part), which is the cause of my concern.

Do you think that line of thinking makes me snobby? If so, have a nice day.

Btw all that stuff about crank hubs is classic whatabout-ism. What do BMW issues have to do with my potential decision to buy a Ford??

[Graves]

Originally Posted by Darth One

My dude. You've taken the last two words of my post and spun it off into a different rant.

Let me restate my point again. The guy I quoted (see above) said that poor fit and finish is indicative of poor reliability. I said I 100% agree and there is no excuse in this day and age for that.

Did you read where I said I'd still probably buy the car? I am still interested in the GT500 but am just concerned about these issues. He says he had two Shelbys fall apart (a little creative license with those words on my part), which is the cause of my concern.

Do you think that line of thinking makes me snobby? If so, have a nice day.

Btw all that stuff about crank hubs is classic whatabout-ism. What do BMW issues have to do with my potential decision to buy a Ford??

Never mind.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Graves

You get what you pay for. Like you kind of said, if you can't live with it, then I guess it's not for you. Just sit back and watch as they blow by you and slam into crowds of innocent women and children. Heard a rumor, ISIS was going to use C&C as a platform for terrorism. Scary stuff!

I tried to have a rational conversation with you, but I guess it isn’t possible. I have nothing against the blue oval or any brand from a snobby standpoint. I’ll drive anything if I like it until it is in the shop more than it is on the road when brand new. Toys shouldn’t be pains in the ass.

[Graves]

Originally Posted by minn19

I tried to have a rational conversation with you, but I guess it isn’t possible. I have nothing against the blue oval or any brand from a snobby standpoint. I’ll drive anything if I like it until it is in the shop more than it is on the road when brand new. Toys shouldn’t be pains in the ass.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Graves

Just sit back and watch as they blow by you and slam into crowds of innocent women and children.

I'm not all that bright but that doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to own a Mustang.