"Official" Im-taking-ED-delivery 2nd/3rd week Oct thread (*and not using winter tire)

[BwoodBMW]

Originally Posted by SamS

Thanks for the update. I checked the 10/15 day forecast for Munich, and it looks a bit cold and wet, but never below freezing.

But I'm starting to think Grossglockner might be out.

I was going to drive susten pass but it was so cloudy I didn't want to risk it, even if it was dry visibility was so low that it maybe wouldn't have even been that cool... so I spent the morning in the spa with my wife instead... Which was amazing

[frisky]

Originally Posted by Mustangquadcam

Post a delivery picture when you get it!

Posted a couple of the M5 board. http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1182721

Dont wanna hijack this thread and post non F-8X pictures lest I get flamed. :-)

f.

[absoluteis350]

Drove Grossglockner today. Awesome, but WAY shorter than I thought.. if you don't go to the glacier, the whole thing is done in 30-45 mins (with no stops).

Having said that, I would look at the temps on the webcams rather than the weather forecasts. It was beautiful and sunny, with a dry road, even tho there was snow in some places beside the road. The summer tires had ZERO problems in those conditions, temps were at the min 34-36F at the lowest, even in this second week of October. I would also say that the weather forecasts claimed it snowed close to a foot of snow on Grossglockner highway Sat and Sun, and my trip was Monday early afternoon.

I would recommend that you do NOT worry about winter tires IF the temperatures will be above freezing in the towns along GG (not the mountain) and the forecast is for sun. Honestly, this drive is do-able in summer tires even at freezing, as long as you have full sun. It would be a shame to freak out about this drive and not do it, when it is very well maintained and no issue at all.

There were a lot of other sports cars (Porsches, i8s, Ms, AMGs) running summer tires today, tearing around the GG road.

Just DO it, and unless the web cam shows snow accumulation on the road, don't worry about winters. Worst case scenario, the whole thing will be over in 20 mins.

By the way, I will post pics of GG and my drive/conditions when I finally get home and offload the thousands of images I took.

Here's one:

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

Drove Grossglockner today. Awesome, but WAY shorter than I thought.. if you don't go to the glacier, the whole thing is done in 30-45 mins (with no stops).

Having said that, I would look at the temps on the webcams rather than the weather forecasts. It was beautiful and sunny, with a dry road, even tho there was snow in some places beside the road. The summer tires had ZERO problems in those conditions, temps were at the min 34-36F at the lowest, even in this second week of October. I would also say that the weather forecasts claimed it snowed close to a foot of snow on Grossglockner highway Sat and Sun, and my trip was Monday early afternoon.

I would recommend that you do NOT worry about winter tires IF the temperatures will be above freezing in the towns along GG (not the mountain) and the forecast is for sun. Honestly, this drive is do-able in summer tires even at freezing, as long as you have full sun. It would be a shame to freak out about this drive and not do it, when it is very well maintained and no issue at all.

There were a lot of other sports cars (Porsches, i8s, Ms, AMGs) running summer tires today, tearing around the GG road.

Just DO it, and unless the web cam shows snow accumulation on the road, don't worry about winters. Worst case scenario, the whole thing will be over in 20 mins.

By the way, I will post pics of GG and my drive/conditions when I finally get home and offload the thousands of images I took.

Here's one:

Thanks for the update ! 36 hours to delivery!

[frisky]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

Drove Grossglockner today. Awesome, but WAY shorter than I thought.. if you don't go to the glacier, the whole thing is done in 30-45 mins (with no stops).

Awesome! Glad you made it up!
f.

[absoluteis350]

Ok I am finally back and I just wanted to bring some kind of closure to this thread, in an attempt to make it useful for others doing October Euro Delivery, without snow tires.

First of all, snow tires were not an option for me since my dropoff was in Nice. You have to do pickup AND dropoff into Munich if you want to do the snow tire swap.

One advantage I will tell you right now of Sept/Oct is that there is very little traffic (none, in some cases).

So, with summer tires (Michelins) I ended up doing ALL of the passes on my list. Here are the lessons and things to look out for: (more complete story will be in my ED diary post)
edit- sorry I didn't realize how long winded this would be but I wanted to provide everyone with as much info as possible.

Grossglockner - this was iffy. It snowed a little the 2 days prior, and snowed 2 days later. But the day of my intended drive, I checked the webcams at 10am and it showed beautiful blue skies, dry roads, and above freezing temps. So I decided to do it. It was cloudy, cold and rainy in Munich but by the time we made it to grossglockner, it was clear. We arrived approx. 4pm which was much later than I hoped. However, the drive was fantastic. I kept the temperature gauge on in the car, and it never dipped below freezing (37F min I recall). The turn off the main road and drive to the glacier is worth it. Again, we had a massive 4 deck parking garage to ourselves, essentially.
Lesson- the Grossglockner webcams are fantastic. Use them. Check the actual road condition (there may be snow on the ground beside the road but temps still well above freezing) They also give you the current temperature which is invaluable. If its above freezing, do the drive. EdelweiSSspitze is the summit, which is a turn off the main road, and will give you your coldest temperature readings/conditions.

Dolomite's- Gardena pass, Pordoi pass, Sella pass - due to time constraints, we could only do the Gardena pass. The web cams in these areas are limited (the links I posted are decent), but the passes are not very high at all. It was cold and slightly rainy when we did these, but they will always be warmer than Grossglockner, and so you can probably safetly assume you can do these passes in October. They are beautiful in their own way, but very short drives. We had zero issues. Temps prob down to 40F at the worst spots.

Oberalp pass- wasn't on the to-do list, but we ended up on it in order to get from Davos to Furka. The high point on this pass was just around freezing, but the road was perfectly dry and the conditions were relatively safe. There was snow on the ground adjacent to the road, but again, the road was in perfect condition (not even much melt). The temps always stayed above freezing, maybe 34F at the summit. But the clear sky meant the road surface was much warmer. Hitting the summit (which is quite a relatively long stretch of road) was spectacular, since we had crystal blue skies, a white mountain peak beside us, and a scarlet red 'alp express' train all in the same spot at once. Jaw dropping.

Furka pass- this is, by FAR, the hairiest pass to drive. Many areas are single car width, there are trucks and tourist busses on it (I have NO idea how they do it) and there are shear drops with few barriers. I am afraid of heights but I still did it. Again, had checked the weather conditions, and we saw from a distance that there were many cars on it. The temps were around 40 at the base, so we decided to try it (plus we just came from Oberalp and knew the roads were dry, even if the temps dropped). Again, no problems. Some areas here had melt crossing the road, but in crystal clear skies the sun kept the road surface warm enough. Same as the other passes, in that if its clear skies and dry, with temps in the 40s at the base, it will be no problem. We did briefly hit freezing air temps near the top, but the road is straight there, very well maintained, wide and mostly dry.

Grimsel pass- **use the web cam from Grimselsee** We could see that the pass was in good condition (you can see it from Furka), and we knew what the temps would be like just having done Furka (which is higher I believe). So the Grimsel climb was no problem at all.. Dry, wide road, temps didn't hit freezing (37F min again). Easy drive. However, once you hit the peak and go to the other side (hence the web cam check) the visibility conditions can be different (temps were the same, so no issue). Basically, the other side of Grimsel was in a cloud. Visibility was maybe 3 car lengths at best. There aren't any real hairpins, or anything dangerous, but it is annoying to drive in that low vis for that long of a time. The only issue is that the dense fog/cloud cover will mean that the road temps are closer to the air temps, which means less grip (not that you would be going fast anyway).
Lesson- Use the webcams to be prepared for what you will find. Going back down Furka to avoid Grimsel was not an option for me :P Besides I wanted to see it

Susten pass- Ok.. Preface - I did it with summer tires, I did not use the webcam (mistake). I think I had to change my underwear during this drive. Probably most unnerving drive of the trip (well, see my ED, there was a worse one). The beginning part of the Susten leg was fine until we started to climb. Once again, we went into a cloud (again, check the Grimselsee camera, and I believe there is a susten one too). Conditions were 3-4 car length visibility. No real traffic, but temps dropped like a rock. We ended up with a min temp of 27-28F. The roads were dry thankfully, but I did detect faint snowflakes in the air, all while we were still climbing (meaning it was potentially going to get worse). With the dense cloud cover, I no longer had confidence in the road surface temps, and I was wetting myself with every turn. I don't think the roadside drops were that bad, or barriers too small (certainly it was a billion times better than Furka) but I suppose I couldn't see the drops in the cloud.
Lesson - Definitely NOT recommended if there is dense cloud cover. Assume the temps here are worse than Furka/Grimsel peaks if you see dense cloud cover on the cams. It may even be higher since there was easily a 10F difference in temps. Had it been clear skies and sunny like Oberalp/Furka/Grimsel climb, then it would probably have been fine since the roads were dry (even if they were cold) and it would have been an okay drive.

Davos Not a pass, technically, but this was the worst drive of the trip, perhaps of my life: nighttime with rapidly dropping temps, snow imminent, and the pass to Davos still climbing. See my ED diary. Took 10 years off my life. For reference, we came at it via Fluelapassstrasse (Fluela pass)
edit- I should have done more research.. from the dangerousroads.org website "The road is difficult and it’s a nightmare in the wet or dark (or both)." .. yup.. it suuure is..

Chamonix/Northern French Alps We had to divert around these since we had a cold front move in which resulted in snow fall (Oct 14). I was not going to attempt it.

French Alps, middle- Col de Vars, Col de la bonette - This and the next pass are easy to get weather forecasts and current temps for. No worries, no guess work. Just check the temp and go. These are much warmer than the Swiss alpine passes. We had 45F summit temps (50F base temps) with zero worries about road conditions, ZERO traffic.
I will add that it had snowed a good amount on Bonette the day before, and the first sign we passed indicated col de la Bonette was closed. However, we still decided we had to go to its base (since we were doing col de Vars first) and by the time we go there (1 pm) the pass had been opened. With such warm temps, even a moderate snow fall melts quickly on these passes. And they are truly spectacular. Much better (I think) than the Swiss passes everyone lines up to drive.
Lesson- check the weather forecasts, but these both should be drive-able in October on summer tires. The temps are much higher than in Switzerland, and even an overnight snow fall may not stop you. If it snows, I would recommend re-checking the status of the pass the next day around early afternoon, since it should be open again. The weather forecast at the peak can be found by googling Cime de la Bonette, which is the highest point along these roads and will give you a good guide to go by

col de Turini- no issues in October.. its way south, its way warm, its way in need of resurfacing in some parts ;P

I will parrot this in my ED writeup, but everyone should drive Route Napoleon. THAT is where you really get to 'drive' a high performance car, not the high alpine passes with hairpins and narrow passing. Relatively high speeds, good road conditions, sweeping turn after turn, passing zones, wide enough that you aren't nervous, just a stunning drive from a performance car standpoint. For reference, this particular stretch of road is from the end of col de la bonette, to Rimplas, France.

I sincerely hope this helps people doing October delivery in the future. Feel free to ask me questions if I wasn't clear.

Final take away - You can definitely drive alpine passes with summer tires in October if you go to the mid/southern French Alps. If you want to drive the Austrian/Swiss alps with summer tires, it is possible but you must use information to keep yourself appraised of the conditions.

[CosmosMpower]

Picked up Oct 15 and dropped off at Munich on the 20th, no snow at all in Munich, Berchtesgaden, Stuttgart, Nurburgring, Stavelot Belgium, or Frankfurt. Lots of rain and coldest it go was about 37F. Summer continentals were fine.

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

Ok I am finally back and I just wanted to bring some kind of closure to this thread, in an attempt to make it useful for others doing October Euro Delivery, without snow tires.

First of all, snow tires were not an option for me since my dropoff was in Nice. You have to do pickup AND dropoff into Munich if you want to do the snow tire swap.

One advantage I will tell you right now of Sept/Oct is that there is very little traffic (none, in some cases).

So, with summer tires (Michelins) I ended up doing ALL of the passes on my list. Here are the lessons and things to look out for: (more complete story will be in my ED diary post)
edit- sorry I didn't realize how long winded this would be but I wanted to provide everyone with as much info as possible.

Grossglockner - this was iffy. It snowed a little the 2 days prior, and snowed 2 days later. But the day of my intended drive, I checked the webcams at 10am and it showed beautiful blue skies, dry roads, and above freezing temps. So I decided to do it. It was cloudy, cold and rainy in Munich but by the time we made it to grossglockner, it was clear. We arrived approx. 4pm which was much later than I hoped. However, the drive was fantastic. I kept the temperature gauge on in the car, and it never dipped below freezing (37F min I recall). The turn off the main road and drive to the glacier is worth it. Again, we had a massive 4 deck parking garage to ourselves, essentially.
Lesson- the Grossglockner webcams are fantastic. Use them. Check the actual road condition (there may be snow on the ground beside the road but temps still well above freezing) They also give you the current temperature which is invaluable. If its above freezing, do the drive. EdelweiSSspitze is the summit, which is a turn off the main road, and will give you your coldest temperature readings/conditions.

Dolomite's- Gardena pass, Pordoi pass, Sella pass - due to time constraints, we could only do the Gardena pass. The web cams in these areas are limited (the links I posted are decent), but the passes are not very high at all. It was cold and slightly rainy when we did these, but they will always be warmer than Grossglockner, and so you can probably safetly assume you can do these passes in October. They are beautiful in their own way, but very short drives. We had zero issues. Temps prob down to 40F at the worst spots.

Oberalp pass- wasn't on the to-do list, but we ended up on it in order to get from Davos to Furka. The high point on this pass was just around freezing, but the road was perfectly dry and the conditions were relatively safe. There was snow on the ground adjacent to the road, but again, the road was in perfect condition (not even much melt). The temps always stayed above freezing, maybe 34F at the summit. But the clear sky meant the road surface was much warmer. Hitting the summit (which is quite a relatively long stretch of road) was spectacular, since we had crystal blue skies, a white mountain peak beside us, and a scarlet red 'alp express' train all in the same spot at once. Jaw dropping.

Furka pass- this is, by FAR, the hairiest pass to drive. Many areas are single car width, there are trucks and tourist busses on it (I have NO idea how they do it) and there are shear drops with few barriers. I am afraid of heights but I still did it. Again, had checked the weather conditions, and we saw from a distance that there were many cars on it. The temps were around 40 at the base, so we decided to try it (plus we just came from Oberalp and knew the roads were dry, even if the temps dropped). Again, no problems. Some areas here had melt crossing the road, but in crystal clear skies the sun kept the road surface warm enough. Same as the other passes, in that if its clear skies and dry, with temps in the 40s at the base, it will be no problem. We did briefly hit freezing air temps near the top, but the road is straight there, very well maintained, wide and mostly dry.

Grimsel pass- **use the web cam from Grimselsee** We could see that the pass was in good condition (you can see it from Furka), and we knew what the temps would be like just having done Furka (which is higher I believe). So the Grimsel climb was no problem at all.. Dry, wide road, temps didn't hit freezing (37F min again). Easy drive. However, once you hit the peak and go to the other side (hence the web cam check) the visibility conditions can be different (temps were the same, so no issue). Basically, the other side of Grimsel was in a cloud. Visibility was maybe 3 car lengths at best. There aren't any real hairpins, or anything dangerous, but it is annoying to drive in that low vis for that long of a time. The only issue is that the dense fog/cloud cover will mean that the road temps are closer to the air temps, which means less grip (not that you would be going fast anyway).
Lesson- Use the webcams to be prepared for what you will find. Going back down Furka to avoid Grimsel was not an option for me :P Besides I wanted to see it

Susten pass- Ok.. Preface - I did it with summer tires, I did not use the webcam (mistake). I think I had to change my underwear during this drive. Probably most unnerving drive of the trip (well, see my ED, there was a worse one). The beginning part of the Susten leg was fine until we started to climb. Once again, we went into a cloud (again, check the Grimselsee camera, and I believe there is a susten one too). Conditions were 3-4 car length visibility. No real traffic, but temps dropped like a rock. We ended up with a min temp of 27-28F. The roads were dry thankfully, but I did detect faint snowflakes in the air, all while we were still climbing (meaning it was potentially going to get worse). With the dense cloud cover, I no longer had confidence in the road surface temps, and I was wetting myself with every turn. I don't think the roadside drops were that bad, or barriers too small (certainly it was a billion times better than Furka) but I suppose I couldn't see the drops in the cloud.
Lesson - Definitely NOT recommended if there is dense cloud cover. Assume the temps here are worse than Furka/Grimsel peaks if you see dense cloud cover on the cams. It may even be higher since there was easily a 10F difference in temps. Had it been clear skies and sunny like Oberalp/Furka/Grimsel climb, then it would probably have been fine since the roads were dry (even if they were cold) and it would have been an okay drive.

Davos Not a pass, technically, but this was the worst drive of the trip, perhaps of my life: nighttime with rapidly dropping temps, snow imminent, and the pass to Davos still climbing. See my ED diary. Took 10 years off my life. For reference, we came at it via Fluelapassstrasse (Fluela pass)
edit- I should have done more research.. from the dangerousroads.org website "The road is difficult and it’s a nightmare in the wet or dark (or both)." .. yup.. it suuure is..

Chamonix/Northern French Alps We had to divert around these since we had a cold front move in which resulted in snow fall (Oct 14). I was not going to attempt it.

French Alps, middle- Col de Vars, Col de la bonette - This and the next pass are easy to get weather forecasts and current temps for. No worries, no guess work. Just check the temp and go. These are much warmer than the Swiss alpine passes. We had 45F summit temps (50F base temps) with zero worries about road conditions, ZERO traffic.
I will add that it had snowed a good amount on Bonette the day before, and the first sign we passed indicated col de la Bonette was closed. However, we still decided we had to go to its base (since we were doing col de Vars first) and by the time we go there (1 pm) the pass had been opened. With such warm temps, even a moderate snow fall melts quickly on these passes. And they are truly spectacular. Much better (I think) than the Swiss passes everyone lines up to drive.
Lesson- check the weather forecasts, but these both should be drive-able in October on summer tires. The temps are much higher than in Switzerland, and even an overnight snow fall may not stop you. If it snows, I would recommend re-checking the status of the pass the next day around early afternoon, since it should be open again. The weather forecast at the peak can be found by googling Cime de la Bonette, which is the highest point along these roads and will give you a good guide to go by

col de Turini- no issues in October.. its way south, its way warm, its way in need of resurfacing in some parts ;P

I will parrot this in my ED writeup, but everyone should drive Route Napoleon. THAT is where you really get to 'drive' a high performance car, not the high alpine passes with hairpins and narrow passing. Relatively high speeds, good road conditions, sweeping turn after turn, passing zones, wide enough that you aren't nervous, just a stunning drive from a performance car standpoint. For reference, this particular stretch of road is from the end of col de la bonette, to Rimplas, France.

I sincerely hope this helps people doing October delivery in the future. Feel free to ask me questions if I wasn't clear.

Final take away - You can definitely drive alpine passes with summer tires in October if you go to the mid/southern French Alps. If you want to drive the Austrian/Swiss alps with summer tires, it is possible but you must use information to keep yourself appraised of the conditions.

Excellent summary! I did a few of these during my last delivery, and loved them. That was in December, and it was a bit hairy. This time, skipped Solden and upwards because it was snowing the night before. But did a lot of lower elevation hills and sweeping backroads in Austria on the way to and from Salzburg and Innsbruck, and really enjoyed them. There are lot of beautiful driving roads in that area.

Love the picture in Nice too.