BMW M Performance Suspension (HAS height adjustable sleeve over kit)

[AMOR]

Originally Posted by scott13

The installation manual indicates that "in general the car must be upgraded to the latest I-level" prior to install. But is that necessary for a car with passive suspension? I'm having these put on next week and don't want to risk have my coding blown out by a flash upgrade unless it's really necessary. Can't think of any good reason why the flash would be necessary on a car without EDC???

Speaking of installing these on a car with passive suspension...anyone have any feedback on the before/after? Seems like many (most) have these on cars with EDC.

If you don’t have EDC - better get coilovers. MPHAS makes more sense to retain damper control.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by scott13

The installation manual indicates that "in general the car must be upgraded to the latest I-level" prior to install. But is that necessary for a car with passive suspension? I'm having these put on next week and don't want to risk have my coding blown out by a flash upgrade unless it's really necessary. Can't think of any good reason why the flash would be necessary on a car without EDC???

Speaking of installing these on a car with passive suspension...anyone have any feedback on the before/after? Seems like many (most) have these on cars with EDC.

In principle no, there’s no need to upgrade software on a non-EDC car.

MP-HAS were specifically designed for the EDC dampers. I recall reading folks that reported installing them on non-EDC with satisfactory results. However, as others have pointed out, if you’re going through the trouble, might as well get full coil overs and have the dampers matched to the springs.

[scott13]

Originally Posted by AMOR

If you don’t have EDC - better get coilovers. MPHAS makes more sense to retain damper control.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In principle no, there’s no need to upgrade software on a non-EDC car.

MP-HAS were specifically designed for the EDC dampers. I recall reading folks that reported installing them on non-EDC with satisfactory results. However, as others have pointed out, if you’re going through the trouble, might as well get full coil overs and have the dampers matched to the springs.

Thanks all for the info. I'm actually currently on coilovers, but am looking to try something new. Trust me...it's a long, frustrating story.

Anyways, I thought the MP HAS might be an interesting option to try out instead of rolling the dice with a different coilover kit. I guess I assumed the MP HAS springs would still be well suited for the non-EDC dampers. But maybe that wasn't a fair assumption? Guess I'm about to find out...

[scott13]

Many thanks to PushinRice for posting the parts list for the hardware kit.

Originally Posted by PushinRice

These are the extra parts on my invoice from the install:

$68.88 with BMWCCA discount

But just in case there's anyone else out there with my level of OCD that likes to confirm that all the proper bits and pieces were shipped prior to install, here's a pic of what came in the kit I ordered. Looks like they only sent me 1 of the 2 gaskets, but I'm guessing I should be able to get the other one pretty easily.

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[mindspin311]

Originally Posted by scott13

Many thanks to PushinRice for posting the parts list for the hardware kit.



But just in case there's anyone else out there with my level of OCD that likes to confirm that all the proper bits and pieces were shipped prior to install, here's a pic of what came in the kit I ordered. Looks like they only sent me 1 of the 2 gaskets, but I'm guessing I should be able to get the other one pretty easily.

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These are the supposed 1 time use bolts that need to be replaced?

[scott13]

Originally Posted by mindspin311

These are the supposed 1 time use bolts that need to be replaced?

Yep. To be very specific, this is the ~$65 bundled hardware kit from getbmwparts (Tischer BMW). I'm having my local shop do the install rather than my dealership, so figured it couldn't hurt to get the kit just in case they didn't have the parts on hand.

[Ed_rx7]

Any spring rates for these?

[mindspin311]

Originally Posted by scott13

Yep. To be very specific, this is the ~$65 bundled hardware kit from getbmwparts (Tischer BMW). I'm having my local shop do the install rather than my dealership, so figured it couldn't hurt to get the kit just in case they didn't have the parts on hand.

Can you post a link? I can't seem to find it myself.

[CRRobert]

Question, how much are people adjusting before they get a new alignment done? Need to raise the front some, 3-6mm, and curious if that is enough to warrant alignment. I do plan to get a full alignment/corner balance, etc before my first track day in April.

[Suds]

It will depend on how aggressive you drive, you will be loosing some negative caber and toe.
I raised my Avant about 3/8” and it has less front grip without having the alignment done.

Originally Posted by CRRobert

Question, how much are people adjusting before they get a new alignment done? Need to raise the front some, 3-6mm, and curious if that is enough to warrant alignment. I do plan to get a full alignment/corner balance, etc before my first track day in April.

[figure99]

Originally Posted by CRRobert

Question, how much are people adjusting before they get a new alignment done? Need to raise the front some, 3-6mm, and curious if that is enough to warrant alignment. I do plan to get a full alignment/corner balance, etc before my first track day in April.

I lowered my rears about 5mm after already having the alignment done. I still may go another few mm lower in the spring, in addition to lowering the front 3-5 mm as well. I wasn't planning on getting another alignment unless I notice something is off. Not sure that's right, so if someone believes an alignment is warranted I'm all ears.

[Jockey]

My understanding is you can adjust the front without an alignment but touching the rear will require another alignment.

[MrSmartyPants]

Originally Posted by Jockey

My understanding is you can adjust the front without an alignment but touching the rear will require another alignment.

Incorrect. Ride height changes in mac strut or multilink will result in alignment changes. Mac strut will be toe only, multilink will be toe and camber.

[SanchoDivine]

I did an alignment after adjusting mine. The way I see it, getting a good alignment cost less than a tire which is a better deal then paying for 4 tires for having a bad alignment.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

Incorrect. Ride height changes in mac strut or multilink will result in alignment changes. Mac strut will be toe only, multilink will be toe and camber.

I was going off the literature provided by BMW

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

Incorrect. Ride height changes in mac strut or multilink will result in alignment changes. Mac strut will be toe only, multilink will be toe and camber.

As far as I know, changing ride height on a MacPherson strut will also change camber...

[MrSmartyPants]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As far as I know, changing ride height on a MacPherson strut will also change camber...

Technically yes, but its typically at a very low rate, where a multilink or double a arm layout will gain much more camber through travel. Don't know where my M3 started, but lowering 1 inch or so (Eibach V2) only yielded -1.6 front neg camber. I'd guess a couple tenths change maybe. Cars with mac strut front tend to run more neg camber to start due to the lack of gain during compression. My evo used to run -3.5. I've heard of Porches running more the -5 (also mac strut front). Aligning my buddies S2k we never added neg camber bc it didn't need it (double a arm front).

If you play with some 2D CAD layouts you'll see what I mean.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

If you play with some 2D CAD layouts you'll see what I mean.

Actually I have played a fair bit with suspension geometries on CAD back in college, I was responsible for the suspension design on our Furmula-SAE. Good times those were .

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

Technically yes, but its typically at a very low rate, where a multilink or double a arm layout will gain much more camber through travel. Don't know where my M3 started, but lowering 1 inch or so (Eibach V2) only yielded -1.6 front neg camber. I'd guess a couple tenths change maybe.

I'd say camber variation with travel greatly depends on the geometry of the suspension regardless if it is multi-link or strut.

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

Cars with mac strut front tend to run more neg camber to start due to the lack of gain during compression. My evo used to run -3.5. I've heard of Porches running more the -5 (also mac strut front). Aligning my buddies S2k we never added neg camber bc it didn't need it (double a arm front).

The F8X has -1.5deg front and -1.8deg rear camber nominal specifications...
I assume you mean track setups?

[MrSmartyPants]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Actually I have played a fair bit with suspension geometries on CAD back in college, I was responsible for the suspension design on our Furmula-SAE. Good times those were .



I'd say camber variation with travel greatly depends on the geometry of the suspension regardless if it is multi-link or strut.



The F8X has -1.5deg front and -1.8deg rear camber nominal specifications...
I assume you mean track setups?

Lucky, we didn't have FSAE at my school. Those programs look so fun. But yeah, my frame of reference is layouts from my Evo and reading Carroll Smith's books and a few others. Most of the mac strut cars I've played with all needed lots of neg camber for front grip, regardless of how damn stiff we made the suspension. And yeah, the big camber numbers are from autox and track setups primarily.

In terms of relevance to this thread, a ride height change up to 5 or 6mm is not going to change neg camber in a measurable way for the front suspension. It may not create a big toe change either in the front. I'd be more worried about the rear personally. I've noticed post alignment that the car tracks and accelerates much straighter with a good alignment.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

But yeah, my frame of reference is layouts from my Evo and reading Carroll Smith's books and a few others. Most of the mac strut cars I've played with all needed lots of neg camber for front grip, regardless of how damn stiff we made the suspension. And yeah, the big camber numbers are from autox and track setups primarily.

I think that using greater camber angles up front relative to the rear in racing setups is more a question of overall handling dynamics than suspension configuration (strut/double-A-arm/multi-link). The front tires are responsible for most of the load when changing direction while the rear tires are mostly responsible for propulsion (on RWD cars). For instance, in F-1, where sophisticated double-A-arm geometries are used front and rear, cars are usually setup with -3 to -4 deg front and 0 to -1 deg rear camber because of this.

Originally Posted by MrSmartyPants

In terms of relevance to this thread, a ride height change up to 5 or 6mm is not going to change neg camber in a measurable way for the front suspension. It may not create a big toe change either in the front. I'd be more worried about the rear personally. I've noticed post alignment that the car tracks and accelerates much straighter with a good alignment.

A few mm of change in ride height will not likely require a re-alignment, front or rear. For instance, when I had the rear height issue with the Eibach on my previous M4, when I got the replacement rear springs that lowered the rear by 0.5" (13mm), we could barely see the change on the alignment machine and decided not to touch anything.

[scott13]

For the sake of sharing…

The majority of the feedback in this thread seems to be based on installs on CP cars with EDC, but I went ahead and had them put on my non-CP (“civic”), non-EDC (passive suspension) 2015 M4 and have been quite happy with the results so far.

I have them set to their lowest setting (-25mm front / -20mm rear) and that definitely cleans up the wheel gap nicely, even with my 18” winter wheels. In terms of ride quality, I’d say it feels firm and “sporty” without ever really feeling overly harsh or jarring. In general, the ride is pretty “quiet” (not twitchy or jiggly) over comparatively smooth roads doesn’t feel “crashy” or un-compliant over some of the bigger bumps. At “sporty” turn in speeds (for winter tires), everything feels nice and flat/tight and grippy—definitely excited to see how things feel on my summer PS4S tires.

I’ve been on a bit of a suspension odyssey (OEM, lowering springs, multiple coilover setups…LONG story) and there’s been things I’ve liked and disliked about all of those setups. I don’t expect the MP HAS to be “perfect”, but so far I’m pretty happy with the blend of comfort and performance. It’s only been a few days on the new kit so I’m curious to see how they stand the test of time…and the test of some of the crappiest of crappy roads that the greater Boston/Cambridge area has to offer. But so far so good.

[Shadow2]

Whats the recommended height? Couldn't find it in the PDF instructions linked from the first post, nor through the last 10-15 pages of the thread???
Having it installed on my new to me 2016 F80 w/EDC, tomorrow at RRT Performance in VA. The car, stock, is just incredibly darty to me. Not always confidence inspiring, but something I know will be gone now. I need it to be lower but not slammed, it is a daily.