Why BMW design matters

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

That's an interesting question to ask. Did BMW need to evolve to survive? Considering that they are in the top ten of car manufacturers by revenue, I don't think it can be argued that any change they make is a survival move. Perhaps a move to become the number 1 manufacture but whatever the reason for their drastic design changes it isn't so they can survive. If we can agree on this then there has to be another reason. To follow a trend in bigger grills and become the new Toyota/Lexus? To be number 1 in sales? To appeal to a different demographic? Or just change for change's sake to appear radical and fresh? I don't think any of those are valid reasons to change a loved and iconic design trait, but either way you look at it they are cutting customers like me loose. My opinion no longer matters and in fact they find those with opinions like mine worthy of ridicule in their advertising. Regardless of design opinion, that isn't the way to build a brand or sell a change.

Marketing is a tricky beast. You risk alienating your loyal base at the expense of gaining a new one. I'm
Thinking the over 40 crowd will be more inclined to get an M5 since the M3/4 has always been aimed at a younger crowd.

I was telling a younger coworker of mine about the G82 M4 I ordered and he said "The one with the big grill!? Those are nice!" Mind you, he's got a weird style and I call him "Tic Tok" as in "what's up Tic Tok?" So obviously it makes sense that BMW is setting themselves up to capture the next wave of young consumers.

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by White340

They just had record sales for M division and said that m3/m4 demand is greater than ever. No one in my friend circle likes the design. Then again we are in our 40s now. I guess I'm getting old…

I would argue that sales do not indicate an iconic design. Lots of cars sell that are horribly designed. Take Toyota/Lexus for example. Most of their cars are train wrecks as far as design, especially that Lexus grill. Interestingly, one of the best designs to come out of Toyota recently is the Supra. It seems young people really like that car and it doesn't have a huge grill. This idea that the big grill is to appeal to a new generation or provide better cooling is complete nonsense. Many different designs could have accomplished both, without the race to the biggest grill. The huge grill craze is just a bad idea. And not surprisingly, the Lexus EV super car concept completely dumps the grill. Let's hope that design direction finds its way into their other cars.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

I would argue that sales do not indicate an iconic design. Lots of cars sale that are horribly designed. Take Toyota/Lexus for example. Most of their cars are train wrecks as far as design, especially that Lexus grill. Interestingly, one of the best designs to come out of Toyota recently is the Supra. It seems young people really like that car and it doesn't have a huge grill. This idea that the big grill is to appeal to a new generation or provide better cooling is complete nonsense. Many different designs could have accomplished both, without the race to the biggest grill. The huge grill craze is just a bad idea. And not surprisingly, the Lexus EV super car concept completely dumps the grill. Let's hope that design direction finds its way into their other cars.

Many people think the Supra is "bad design" as well. I disagree but that goes to show it's all subjective.

I believe I've already posted a video and an explanation on how the bigger grill actually does improve the cooling capabilities of the G80. Allowing for a smaller area for the "crash bar" and moving the radiators closer to the front than the F80 decreases the turbulence behind the front fascia (as shown in the video). Again, it's fine if you don't like it, but it's not because it doesn't provide actual benefits to cooling, because it does. Additionally the coefficient of drag is slightly lower on the G80. In the least it didn't make it worse with the benefit of more airflow and cooling.

[M3JetPilot]

So if BMW had filled in the middle of the bigger grill with bumper type trim instead of making it part of the grill trim, cooling would have suffered?

[knightarmor]

Loving this discussion.
I've come to love the look of the G80, specifically the front end. I fell in love with the F80 the moment I saw it in person. The G80 has grown on me especially now that I've seen it lowered. For me it's always been about what a car can be (or look like) and not what it's like from the factory.

All in all, as jmg pointed out, the G80 makes the F80 look aged. That's my personal opinion about the G80 design.

What's funny to me is how some people can't let go of the big grille setup. It's almost as if people expected BMW (or any manufacturer) to keep making cars specifically for them and to their taste. That's not the way the world works. I wish Volvo kept making their cars look like they did in the late 90's/early 2000's. It took the look of the F80 to sway me away from Volvo.

[knightarmor]

Originally Posted by jmg

Actually, the flat portions of the grill are defined by each surface of the front of the car–its a direct connection to the continuity of the car. See the attached pic where I highlighted these surfaces. I find it quite attractive.

In fact, I think this discussion has helped me discover another thing I like about this design. It's very angular. The more I look at this front, the more I see what they were trying to do.



Well, I actually hate the M440i design. The lower grill is awkwardly placed. The G8X is much, much more cohesive. But that's not the point..

It's easier to say what will be a classic than to determine what certainly will not. Remember the Z8 when it came out? It wasn't that popular, and they didn't sell many. Now it's considered a classic. Many people thought Elvis and the Beatles would be the downfall of society. Instead they changed rock and pop music forever. Who would have thought?

Does it carry BMW into the future? Did Bangel bring BMW into the future? Most definitely yes. Objectively speaking, you have to make mistakes to know what not to do next time. As a brand, BMW is strong enough to survive one subjectively ugly M3/4 generation. What they got right was how great it is to drive. If they got the design wrong, they will correct, because the market will require them to. In the meantime, no one can say they didn't take risks or try something new. Whatever design they bring next, this polarizing grill will influence that direction, and by design, will carry BMW into the next phase. The line between famous and infamous is thinner than we think.

I can't believe people don't like an image like this.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

So if BMW had filled in the middle of the bigger grill with bumper type trim instead of making it part of the grill trim, cooling would have suffered?

If you look at the fairings behind the license plate on the M5, they are either the exact height, or slightly taller than the euro license plate. The M3 crash bar is thinner than the euro license plate, and sits behind the grill slits. The fairing on the M5 is in front of the grill slits, so there is potentially more turbulence before the air even gets to the grill near the fairings, lowering efficiency. In other words, the M3 appears to be slightly more efficient without a fairing than with one. We would need air volume data from BMW to really see, but regardless, I don't think the big grill design decrease airflow vs the smaller grill design.

So we cannot disqualify it as being objectively "bad" based on functionality and the aesthetic design remains subjective.

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by jmg

If you look at the fairings behind the license plate on the M5, they are either the exact height, or slightly taller than the euro license plate. The M3 crash bar is thinner than the euro license plate, and sits behind the grill slits. The fairing on the M5 is in front of the grill slits, so there is potentially more turbulence before the air even gets to the grill near the fairings, lowering efficiency. In other words, the M3 appears to be slightly more efficient without a fairing than with one. We would need air volume data from BMW to really see, but regardless, I don't think the big grill design decrease airflow vs the smaller grill design.

So we cannot disqualify it as being objectively "bad" based on functionality and the aesthetic design remains subjective.

I wouldn't disqualify it in terms of functionality but I would point out that the grill design and size itself is not necessary to achieve the required cooling. This idea that the grill is justified to any degree by a need for cooling is a smoke screen. The grill is a stylistic choice. Nothing more, nothing less. It's BMW emulating the several car companies above them that bring in higher revenue and have huge grills. That's all that it is. The car could have looked like this and been just as good at cooling.

[allinon72]

The X3M features the S58 and does not feature an elongated grill. Doesn't that invalidate that argument right from the start?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by allinon72

The X3M features the S58 and does not feature an elongated grill. Doesn't that invalidate that argument right from the start?

That's a different vehicle for a different purpose.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

I wouldn't disqualify it in terms of functionality but I would point out that the grill design and size itself is not necessary to achieve the required cooling. This idea that the grill is justified to any degree by a need for cooling is a smoke screen. The grill is a stylistic choice. Nothing more, nothing less. It's BMW emulating the several car companies above them that bring in higher revenue and have huge grills. That's all that it is. The car could have looked like this and been just as good at cooling.

To me that design looks funny and not a step forward. The tiny upper grills look comically small.

For arguments sake let's say that cooling isn't affected with a big grill. It's still looks better to me, more aggressive, forward thinking etc. Your photo looks too much like a F30 concept or even a G20 M340i concept. I'm not really concerned if it's following a trend or not since not all trends are bad. This is all subjective, of course.

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by jmg

To me that design looks funny and not a step forward. The tiny upper grills look comically small.

For arguments sake let's say that cooling isn't affected with a big grill. It's still looks better to me, more aggressive, forward thinking etc. Your photo looks too much like a F30 concept or even a G20 M340i concept. I'm not really concerned if it's following a trend or not since not all trends are bad. This is all subjective, of course.

Maybe not as subjective as you think. I actually agree that isn't a good render and the grills don't look right. I was mainly trying to show that the recent grill size is not justified by cooling. Correct me if I am wrong but I think we agree on this. Am I reading too much into your last post?

Also, you say that the small decrease in size of the grills in that render are comical. Given that the increase in grill size is 3-4 times in height from the previous generation, wouldn't that seem a bit comical itself? Maybe you're just against small grills but BMW would have more justification to go smaller based on past M cars than to go larger. If that render is comical then the recent increase in size is hilarious.

[icebiker]

I would just like to commend M3JetPilot and jmg for a healthy, informative and thoughtful debate. 👏 👏 This is a great example how different opinions can be exchanged constructively and with civility. The exact opposite of what we sadly see in so many other forums (online or otherwise). While I am in the camp that feels BMW's design ethic is headed in the wrong direction, I can agree with some of jmg's perspectives too.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

Maybe not as subjective as you think. I actually agree that isn't a good render and the grills don't look right. I was mainly trying to show that the recent grill size is not justified by cooling. Correct me if I am wrong but I think we agree on this. Am I reading too much into your last post?

Also, you say that the small decrease in size of the grills in that render are comical. Given that the increase in grill size is 3-4 times in height from the previous generation, wouldn't that seem a bit comical itself? Maybe you're just against small grills but BMW would have more justification to go smaller based on past M cars than to go larger. If that render is comical then the recent increase in size is hilarious.

I think it's the size of the lower left and right grills and the large fairings on top of them that accentuate how small the kidneys are. I don't have anything against the look of smaller grills, the E30 M3 is one of my favorite car designs of all time.

[M3JetPilot]

Originally Posted by icebiker

I would just like to commend M3JetPilot and jmg for a healthy, informative and thoughtful debate. 👏 👏 This is a great example how different opinions can be exchanged constructively and with civility. The exact opposite of what we sadly see in so many other forums (online or otherwise). While I am in the camp that feels BMW's design ethic is headed in the wrong direction, I can agree with some of jmg's perspectives too.

Icebiker, I agree. This discussion has been refreshing to say the least. At the end of the day it's just a car. There are much larger issues to really get fired up over.

[M3JetPilot]

jmg, I completely agree about the E30! Such an epic car even after all these years. I'm actually sad I don't like the G80. I hate not having the same excitement as I had for previous generations. And I never owned an M3 until this past November. I've looked at pictures of the new grill until I can't take it anymore, stopped by my local BMW dealership walking around these new cars, and generally tried to force myself to like it. I just can't. My F80 M3 only has 12,500 on it so maybe it can last me till the next generation.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

jmg, I completely agree about the E30! Such an epic car even after all these years. I'm actually sad I don't like the G80. I hate not having the same excitement as I had for previous generations. And I never owned an M3 until this past November. I've looked at pictures of the new grill until I can't take it anymore, stopped by my local BMW dealership walking around these new cars, and generally tried to force myself to like it. I just can't. My F80 M3 only has 12,500 on it so maybe it can last me till the next generation.

I'm on my 3rd M car, and 9th overall BMW. While deviating from certain aspects of their predecessors might seem like a betrayal of what the M3/4 is spiritually, I see it it more as a way to distinguish each generation with its own identity, bringing unique styling and performance each time. How different the G80 is from its predecessors makes each one more special for what it brought to the market.

E36 - First an I6, the first 4 door sedan
E46 - More luxurious, no 4 door sedan
E90 - The only V8, coupe now has a more swooping rear roofline
F80 - The first twin turbo I6
G80 - First X-Drive, large grills

The E30 will always be great for what it is, no matter what BMW does to the badge. I don't believe that modern iterations can destroy a legacy, I think it helps make it that much more special. So once I got over the fact that the G80 had to be beholden to past M3/4s, then I could appreciate it for what it is.

[TractionControlDelete]

Originally Posted by icebiker

I would just like to commend M3JetPilot and jmg for a healthy, informative and thoughtful debate. 👏 👏 This is a great example how different opinions can be exchanged constructively and with civility. The exact opposite of what we sadly see in so many other forums (online or otherwise). While I am in the camp that feels BMW's design ethic is headed in the wrong direction, I can agree with some of jmg's perspectives too.

This. You said it perfectly

[2sporty]

what BMW could have done is what Honda did with the Integra in the Japan market vs the US market.

[Gbcarmona]

Originally Posted by allinon72

We can argue design choices all day long, but the simple fact is BMW is all in on China and their designs match that. Most of us on this forum are used to cars being designed for…us, in the North American market. Look at all the design cues that most of us revile, now look at the current trends in China. BMW is making the calculation that they will succeed in China and the rest of the world will come to accept the design language after its become normalized.

You are spot on!
Funny thing is that, in certain colours, I’m getting used to it and doesn’t shock me as much now! Still think the F80 or latest M5 is much nicer tho. A bit like the E60 when it came out, everyone said how awful it was, and even today I think it looks “current” and not too dated!

[M3JetPilot]

Let the mods begin. What's interesting is this mod attempts to hide a design element of the car instead of accentuating it. A spoiler isn't attempting to hide the trunk. This mod is attempting to hide the grill size. Sadly, I don't think it looks better.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

Let the mods begin. What's interesting is this mod attempts to hide a design element of the car instead of accentuating it. A spoiler isn't attempting to hide the trunk. This mod is attempting to hide the grill size. Sadly, I don't think it looks better.

It looks kind of like the M4 GT3. I wish it were a little more integrated:



Also similar to the "CSL" grill which I am not 100% sure is legit: