HRE Wheels
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3/M4 versus...

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-18-2019, 11:08 AM   #23
Funf6cyl
First Lieutenant
178
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: 6 cyl
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Synchronized

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
The 911 platform has definitely gotten larger over the years and I get what you mean by calling it a GT car. However it's really a do-everything car that's made on a bespoke sport oriented platform. Thing with ring times though is that there are a lot of variables at play. The 7:25 ring time is impressive for sure but if that's is the only metric we look at, we'd have to say that the new 992 S is faster than a 991.1 GT3 (7:32) as well as a 458 italia (7:38). Does that seem correct to you? It certainly doesn't to me. I'd take the two other cars any day of the week if I was told to set a fast lap on any of the local tracks here. The point that I've illustrated here is that obviously there are other variables at play here that affect these laptimes so they shouldn't just be used as the sole metric to measure a car's performance as well as potential.

Don't get me wrong, the fact that the 992 can post a 7:25 lap is absolutely stunning. However if you were to pit it against the M4 GTS which did a 7:35 lap on the ring, I would be surprised if it turned out to be a much quicker track weapon at most tracks. The GTS will suit smoother tracks where it can use its stiffer suspension and adjustable downforce to increase cornering speed. However on a track where the surface is uneven and bumpy, the superior damping in the 992 should win out, exactly as you see it in the ring times. Do I think the 992 is amazing? Very much so. Do I think it's easily faster than a M4 GTS on track? Not a chance. Two cars are so different and there are so many variables like track surface, alignment, and even tire pressure, all of which can contribute to one car being faster than the other on any given day.

Look man at the end of the day, all I'm trying to say is things aren't as black and white as you make it to be. You guys don't need to be so harsh on either brands as really, these are two of the last few brands that actually bother to make good driving cars. Just enjoy both
The 911 has materially changed over the years - more than a standard deviation from what it was even 10 year ago. The dichotomy between the 997 and 991 is vast and they, in my view, save the sports cars for the ones that start with GT.

I certainly would take a 992S over a 458 and 991 GT3. The 992S is not far off a 991 GT3 RS lap time wise. The 992S also just posted a 1:13 at Vairano, the 458 could only muster a 1:15 despite having 150 more hp.

I do think the 992S is a much quicker track car than the M4 GTS. Main reason being the M4 has cup tires for that time, the 911 summers, so that delta is more like 18 seconds (going by 1 second per lap for cup tires). Even the 991.2S on summers have proven to be much faster and the 992S is certainly a step up over the .2 cars.

Sure there are plenty of variables but I donít think thereís a chance an M4 GTS can run with a stock 991.2 S on the same tires let alone a 992. More so when you consider the 911 is the easier car to drive. And thatís not even taking into consideration the M4 GTS is the pinnacle of track M cars whereas the 992S is an entry level street car. The M4 GTS for its huge power and torque, and very much race driven goal is simply not up to snuff when it was released even though bmw knew exactly what it would be compared to and what they were aiming for.

Ultimately, at my, your level comparisons are moot. But stick a pro in both cars, same day same track and those numbers are meaningful.

MT - Randy driving both at Mazda Raceway (Iíll be doing a track day there in the fall)

991.2S 1:36.44 (summer tires)
M4 GTS 1:37.66 (cup tires)

Those are pretty compelling to me. To say otherwise is just downright denial. Level out tires and the gap is likely 3 seconds per lap. Not even worth putting them in the same sentence at that point.

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-18-2019 at 11:27 AM..
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2019, 11:47 AM   #24
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3748
Rep
5,558
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Again 911 and any porsches are great cars; my video proves that. However you guys need to understand how good the F8X platform is as well. 2-3 seconds faster than the equivalent Amg/RS car on track, in some cases can keep up and pass much faster cars (I've chased down Gt350r and c7 vettes before) if you have sufficient skill over the other driver. Being able to say that about a car I drive in the Canadian snowstorm is pretty cool no?

Porsches make great cars, and I definitely will check that off my list one day. However BMW with the M4 brings very good performance as well. Can we all just agree on this and move on?
This. In bold is precisely what my argument is (not quite what others are saying), that the cars are close enough in performance so that driver skills can more than make up for the theoretical difference in performance we all know very well from spec spreadsheets or pro drivers around known racetracks.

Funf6cyl The claim I can only compete in an unlevel playing field (in my favor, of course) is so outlandish it's hilarious, and only shows your complete ignorance and lack of understanding of a) what my claim is (see above for a refresher, perhaps take some reading comprehension classes as well?), and b) what reality is in the HPDE's and AER races I attend.

But of course, you're so far off in fantasyland that if I told you I've always ran M3's with significantly LESS modifications than my competition, less sticky rubber and against more expensive machinery, that would go completely over your head.

I'm happy to admit an actual Pro would absolutely embarrass my times... whether it would be in my M3, a Porsche or even a 'less capable car' on paper. How many pros do you know make claims such as 'any Porsche is faster than any bmw'? Are you a pro driver? Because you sound awfully lot like a keyboard racer, armed with spreadsheets and online shootouts...

Let's see if rephrasing you can actually understand: the performance envelopes of M3's overlap those of much, much more expensive cars, thereby making it the driver that makes the difference - so hopefully most of us reading this thread... or do you only watch races and have youtube HPDE experience? What are your best times with street tires around VIR, the Glen, Pitt Race or Palmer? How about with DOT slicks? Hearing about 'handling', 'pure bred sports cars', 'built from the ground up', etc from people that are clueless is like hearing about the description of sunsets from someone that's been blind since birth, or all those people that have advice for LeBron or Nadal...

Back to you Absurdium : In my particular experience with M3's, fellow HPDE'ers (similar driving experience as mine, both while climbing through the ranks and now as an instructors) driving cars with a an on-paper performance capability below a 991.1 or .2 GT3 are simply not at the same pace. Sure, some drivers in 991 GT3's are faster than I am, and others slower, but sausage4, have you really never seen an M3 (of any generation) be faster than a GT3 in an HPDE?

The mistake couch racers, closet p-car fanboys and keyboard warriors keep making is inferring that because a pro can be faster in one car vs another, then they, driving that car, can also be faster in that one car vs someone else driving the other car. They forget the fact M3's are more forgiving allows us laymen to approach their limits (and beyond) confidently, thereby enabling us to extract more of the performance available vs another car that is less forgiving.
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2019, 12:08 PM   #25
Absurdium
First Lieutenant
Canada
142
Rep
319
Posts

Drives: F82 TB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
The 911 has materially changed over the years - more than a standard deviation from what it was even 10 year ago. The dichotomy between the 997 and 991 is vast and they, in my view, save the sports cars for the ones that start with GT.

I certainly would take a 992S over a 458 and 991 GT3. The 992S is not far off a 991 GT3 RS lap time wise. The 992S also just posted a 1:13 at Vairano, the 458 could only muster a 1:15 despite having 150 more hp.

I do think the 992S is a much quicker track car than the M4 GTS. Main reason being the M4 has cup tires for that time, the 911 summers, so that delta is more like 18 seconds (going by 1 second per lap for cup tires). Even the 991.2S on summers have proven to be much faster and the 992S is certainly a step up over the .2 cars.

Sure there are plenty of variables but I donít think thereís a chance an M4 GTS can run with a stock 991.2 S on the same tires let alone a 992. More so when you consider the 911 is the easier car to drive. And thatís not even taking into consideration the M4 GTS is the pinnacle of track M cars whereas the 992S is an entry level street car. The M4 GTS for its huge power and torque, and very much race driven goal is simply not up to snuff when it was released even though bmw knew exactly what it would be compared to and what they were aiming for.

Ultimately, at my, your level comparisons are moot. But stick a pro in both cars, same day same track and those numbers are meaningful.

MT - Randy driving both at Mazda Raceway (Iíll be doing a track day there in the fall)

991.2S 1:36.44 (summer tires)
M4 GTS 1:37.66 (cup tires)

Those are pretty compelling to me. To say otherwise is just downright denial. Level out tires and the gap is likely 3 seconds per lap. Not even worth putting them in the same sentence at that point.
I feel like some of your definitions are really different from what I would use. To say 992 C2S is an entry car, seems a bit far fetched no? In most people's spec, the car starts at a higher price than the upcoming 718 GT4. But for simplicity's sake, we can stick to your track argument.

When they post these laptimes, how many runs do you think they make before posting their "best" possible times for the car? 3 laps? 10 laps? Do you think they changed the aero setting lap after lap to create the optimal operating window for the car? Probably not. The 911 doesn't need that because it doesn't have it. The GTS does. Now, if I take both cars off the showroom and bring it to the track right away, I'll concede the 991.2 or 992 is probably faster. Porsches are better set up out of the box and that's been a fact for a while now (stock M4 doesn't even have adjustable camber setting up front). But you need to understand something like the M4 GTS isn't meant for that. It has adjustable suspension along with adjustable aero to allow track users to set it up to their taste and liking. Once properly set up, I would find it hard to believe that the 911.2 would turn around a faster lap than the M4 GTS.

You bring up the point of tires. Well the that lap was was run on the new Pirelli P-zero. Similar to the PS4S, it closes the gap between semi-slick and summer tires over a few laps.

Anyways it's clear you're not willing to budge from your point of view. I like laptimes too but I've learned to judge cars based on experiences within them as well. Tracking your car isn't as people think and there are a lot of factors people don't consider. Laptimes set by pro drivers aren't the be all end all for every discussion and I really hope you understand that. Otherwise, spec races, GT3 races where cars are set equal by regulation would have no meaning. Since there are 20 pro drivers on the grid all of which have the identical car, they should all cross the finish line parallel to each other right? We both know this is clearly not the case and really you should approach comparing different cars and their laptimes in a similar manner. At the end of it all, we clearly don't have the same opinion and that is fine. However try to not dismiss other people's opinion as "downright denial". I don't know how this whole argument with you and other users started but I'm starting to understand a bit more.
Appreciate 1
minn195810.50

      07-18-2019, 12:18 PM   #26
Absurdium
First Lieutenant
Canada
142
Rep
319
Posts

Drives: F82 TB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
This. In bold is precisely what my argument is (not quite what others are saying), that the cars are close enough in performance so that driver skills can more than make up for the theoretical difference in performance we all know very well from spec spreadsheets or pro drivers around known racetracks.

Funf6cyl The claim I can only compete in an unlevel playing field (in my favor, of course) is so outlandish it's hilarious, and only shows your complete ignorance and lack of understanding of a) what my claim is (see above for a refresher, perhaps take some reading comprehension classes as well?), and b) what reality is in the HPDE's and AER races I attend.

But of course, you're so far off in fantasyland that if I told you I've always ran M3's with significantly LESS modifications than my competition, less sticky rubber and against more expensive machinery, that would go completely over your head.

I'm happy to admit an actual Pro would absolutely embarrass my times... whether it would be in my M3, a Porsche or even a 'less capable car' on paper. How many pros do you know make claims such as 'any Porsche is faster than any bmw'? Are you a pro driver? Because you sound awfully lot like a keyboard racer, armed with spreadsheets and online shootouts...

Let's see if rephrasing you can actually understand: the performance envelopes of M3's overlap those of much, much more expensive cars, thereby making it the driver that makes the difference - so hopefully most of us reading this thread... or do you only watch races and have youtube HPDE experience? What are your best times with street tires around VIR, the Glen, Pitt Race or Palmer? How about with DOT slicks? Hearing about 'handling', 'pure bred sports cars', 'built from the ground up', etc from people that are clueless is like hearing about the description of sunsets from someone that's been blind since birth, or all those people that have advice for LeBron or Nadal...

Back to you Absurdium : In my particular experience with M3's, fellow HPDE'ers (similar driving experience as mine, both while climbing through the ranks and now as an instructors) driving cars with a an on-paper performance capability below a 991.1 or .2 GT3 are simply not at the same pace. Sure, some drivers in 991 GT3's are faster than I am, and others slower, but sausage4, have you really never seen an M3 (of any generation) be faster than a GT3 in an HPDE?

The mistake couch racers, closet p-car fanboys and keyboard warriors keep making is inferring that because a pro can be faster in one car vs another, then they, driving that car, can also be faster in that one car vs someone else driving the other car. They forget the fact M3's are more forgiving allows us laymen to approach their limits (and beyond) confidently, thereby enabling us to extract more of the performance available vs another car that is less forgiving.
Yeah honestly tracking is a whole different game versus just comparing spec sheets. I've seen fast 911 drivers and slow M3 drivers and then vice versa. I think my whole point was that the M3/M4 is decent enough to be able to keep up with some of these faster cars.

However I will have to disagree with one of your point though; I think the F8X is actually not an easy car to extract performance from. For 8/10 and below, it's great. But for that last little bit if you want to set a reference lap, the stock hardware and its weight makes it hard to get an absolute best easily. I will say though, it's damn fun getting to that 10/10 limit even though if it can be scary as hell some times
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2019, 12:40 PM   #27
Funf6cyl
First Lieutenant
178
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: 6 cyl
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Synchronized

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
I feel like some of your definitions are really different from what I would use. To say 992 C2S is an entry car, seems a bit far fetched no? In most people's spec, the car starts at a higher price than the upcoming 718 GT4. But for simplicity's sake, we can stick to your track argument.

When they post these laptimes, how many runs do you think they make before posting their "best" possible times for the car? 3 laps? 10 laps? Do you think they changed the aero setting lap after lap to create the optimal operating window for the car? Probably not. The 911 doesn't need that because it doesn't have it. The GTS does. Now, if I take both cars off the showroom and bring it to the track right away, I'll concede the 991.2 or 992 is probably faster. Porsches are better set up out of the box and that's been a fact for a while now (stock M4 doesn't even have adjustable camber setting up front). But you need to understand something like the M4 GTS isn't meant for that. It has adjustable suspension along with adjustable aero to allow track users to set it up to their taste and liking. Once properly set up, I would find it hard to believe that the 911.2 would turn around a faster lap than the M4 GTS.

You bring up the point of tires. Well the that lap was was run on the new Pirelli P-zero. Similar to the PS4S, it closes the gap between semi-slick and summer tires over a few laps.

Anyways it's clear you're not willing to budge from your point of view. I like laptimes too but I've learned to judge cars based on experiences within them as well. Tracking your car isn't as people think and there are a lot of factors people don't consider. Laptimes set by pro drivers aren't the be all end all for every discussion and I really hope you understand that. Otherwise, spec races, GT3 races where cars are set equal by regulation would have no meaning. Since there are 20 pro drivers on the grid all of which have the identical car, they should all cross the finish line parallel to each other right? We both know this is clearly not the case and really you should approach comparing different cars and their laptimes in a similar manner. At the end of it all, we clearly don't have the same opinion and that is fine. However try to not dismiss other people's opinion as "downright denial". I don't know how this whole argument with you and other users started but I'm starting to understand a bit more.
The 992S is the entry level 911. Iím not sure how else youíd categorize it.

Iím glad you brought up that point about the M4 GTSí setting and itís precisely what I was hoping for since it just goes to show that the car needs optimal settings and to be honest even at those settings, not that fast - like itís Ring time (mind you the new GT4 with a manual did 7:28 and only 414 hp and is 97k). The M4 GTS has 40kg of downforce at 125 mph, not many tracks will hit entry or apex speeds that high which means the aero isnít very impactful, resulting in the setting being relatively moot. To go off tangentially, lift and downforce vary by the square of speed so on most tracks, given an entry/apex speed of 60-75 mph youíre only getting something like 20 lbs of downforce. Hardly anything that would make materially difference on a lap. Furthermore, if the M4 GTS canít beat one with a lot more power, a lot more tq, stickier tires, a ton more aero where it can be used on the Ring then it shows me on lesser tracks where aero isnít as much a factor it will not make a difference. Iíve driven an M4 GTS along with my 991.2S and a GT4 all same day so Iím speaking from my own personal experience on how they are on track. Iíd put money on the 911 or GT4.
Just to give you a sense, Iíve owned 4 911s, 2 Caymans and 8 M cars (including both an f80/2 M3 and M4). I actually found the M cars were more aggressively set up out of the factory than my Porsches (even if they do have more adjustability).

I couldnít disagree on tires. The new Cup2s are much better tires during a track day though they are not as ideal as others.

It goes to say, to your point, too many variables and deltas in driver skill to compare most times which is why the ďI passed X carĒ at an HPDE means nothing. Thereís a big difference between a guy trying to have a little fun on a track in a 200k Gt3 just putting around and a few guys in cars ďracingĒ in much less expensive cars who are trying to be event heroís. Unless youíre out there racing for something against the clock I donít put much faith in that other than drivers experience and ability to push a car a bit.
If you want to see which car is downright faster, only someone who can extract 100% of it will suffice. That is really the interesting part of watching someone like Randy, or Christian from SportAuto set a time. Otherwise the results are not telling you much when someone says ďI passed x car(s) at y trackĒ. That is more my point.

sV t what is your fastest time at The Glen?

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-18-2019 at 01:00 PM..
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2019, 12:57 PM   #28
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3748
Rep
5,558
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
The 911 has materially changed over the years - more than a standard deviation from what it was even 10 year ago. The dichotomy between the 997 and 991 is vast and they, in my view, save the sports cars for the ones that start with GT.
Ohhhh, so now only GTx's are the 'real sports cars'? So now a Turbo S is not more capable around a track than say, a GTS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I certainly would take a 992S over a 458 and 991 GT3. The 992S is not far off a 991 GT3 RS lap time wise. The 992S also just posted a 1:13 at Vairano, the 458 could only muster a 1:15 despite having 150 more hp.

I do think the 992S is a much quicker track car than the M4 GTS. Main reason being the M4 has cup tires for that time, the 911 summers, so that delta is more like 18 seconds (going by 1 second per lap for cup tires). Even the 991.2S on summers have proven to be much faster and the 992S is certainly a step up over the .2 cars.
Quicker in the hands of a pro, right? Or are you saying YOU would be faster in a 992S over someone else in a 458, GT3 or even a GTS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Sure there are plenty of variables but I donít think thereís a chance an M4 GTS can run with a stock 991.2 S on the same tires let alone a 992. More so when you consider the 911 is the easier car to drive. And thatís not even taking into consideration the M4 GTS is the pinnacle of track M cars whereas the 992S is an entry level street car. The M4 GTS for its huge power and torque, and very much race driven goal is simply not up to snuff when it was released even though bmw knew exactly what it would be compared to and what they were aiming for.
So many things wrong here... ummm yes, an M4 GTS is most definitely overlapping in the performance envelope with a 992 or 991.2S, so it would be up to driver skill whether or not 'they can run together'.
As far as which is an easier car to drive... how many times have you driven a 991.2 on track? How about a GTS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Ultimately, at my, your level comparisons are moot. But stick a pro in both cars, same day same track and those numbers are meaningful.
So what any of us can do in actual trackdays is moot, the only important thing in your mind is what a pro can do, right? Why even drive a car at a track at all vs just watching videos of Randy drive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
MT - Randy driving both at Mazda Raceway (Iíll be doing a track day there in the fall)

991.2S 1:36.44 (summer tires)
M4 GTS 1:37.66 (cup tires)

Those are pretty compelling to me. To say otherwise is just downright denial. Level out tires and the gap is likely 3 seconds per lap. Not even worth putting them in the same sentence at that point.
You are the only one in denial, thinking that the fact Randy can extract more time means you can too, or (way more of a stretch), that you can be faster in a 991.2S than someone (let alone anyone) else in a GTS.

Please, do post videos of what times you've put in the past around Laguna Seca (and what tires) and enlighten the rest of us! I'm dying to hear how with the same tires you are pulling more than 3 seconds per lap than well driven GTS's out there.
Appreciate 1
minn195810.50

      07-18-2019, 01:01 PM   #29
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3748
Rep
5,558
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Yeah honestly tracking is a whole different game versus just comparing spec sheets. I've seen fast 911 drivers and slow M3 drivers and then vice versa. I think my whole point was that the M3/M4 is decent enough to be able to keep up with some of these faster cars.

However I will have to disagree with one of your point though; I think the F8X is actually not an easy car to extract performance from. For 8/10 and below, it's great. But for that last little bit if you want to set a reference lap, the stock hardware and its weight makes it hard to get an absolute best easily. I will say though, it's damn fun getting to that 10/10 limit even though if it can be scary as hell some times
In bold is what I keep saying and it doesn't compute for spec sheet nerds: all these cars are similar enough to be well within reach of driver skill.

And on our point of disagreement: I've found the f8x (including the GTS) to be as much of a pussycat as the e9x and e46 were before it, the difference is every time more driver skill is required to extract the performance from the car... because you're going faster and faster, of course!
Appreciate 1
Absurdium142.00

      07-18-2019, 01:18 PM   #30
Absurdium
First Lieutenant
Canada
142
Rep
319
Posts

Drives: F82 TB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
In bold is what I keep saying and it doesn't compute for spec sheet nerds: all these cars are similar enough to be well within reach of driver skill.

And on our point of disagreement: I've found the f8x (including the GTS) to be as much of a pussycat as the e9x and e46 were before it, the difference is every time more driver skill is required to extract the performance from the car... because you're going faster and faster, of course!
Fair point. I will say though, that the F8X drives much better than the E92 I had before. The e92 stock felt like the chassis always lagged a bit after your input and really didn't like quick transitions. After driving my buddy's cayman though, the M4 does feel a bit clumsy on slower tracks which made it feel harder to extract. However as you can see from the video, there's a lot more time left on the table so I'm excited to break into the 1:31-1:32 here, which is pretty impressive all things considered for a large car. (For reference, 991.1 GT3 run about 1:29 here with a decent driver)
Appreciate 2
SYT_Shadow3748.00
minn195810.50

      07-18-2019, 01:19 PM   #31
Absurdium
First Lieutenant
Canada
142
Rep
319
Posts

Drives: F82 TB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Man posting M car vs P car videos can be dangerous
Appreciate 1
minn195810.50

      07-18-2019, 01:23 PM   #32
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3748
Rep
5,558
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
The 992S is the entry level 911. Iím not sure how else youíd categorize it.

Iím glad you brought up that point about the M4 GTSí setting and itís precisely what I was hoping for since it just goes to show that the car needs optimal settings and to be honest even at those settings, not that fast - like itís Ring time (mind you the new GT4 with a manual did 7:28 and only 414 hp and is 97k). The M4 GTS has 40kg of downforce at 125 mph, not many tracks will hit entry or apex speeds that high which means the aero isnít very impactful, resulting in the setting being relatively moot. To go off tangentially, lift and downforce vary by the square of speed so on most tracks, given an entry/apex speed of 60-75 mph youíre only getting something like 20 lbs of downforce. Hardly anything that would make materially difference on a lap. Furthermore, if the M4 GTS canít beat one with a lot more power, a lot more tq, stickier tires, a ton more aero where it can be used on the Ring then it shows me on lesser tracks where aero isnít as much a factor it will not make a difference. Iíve driven an M4 GTS along with my 991.2S and a GT4 all same day so Iím speaking from my own personal experience on how they are on track. Iíd put money on the 911 or GT4.
Just to give you a sense, Iíve owned 4 911s, 2 Caymans and 8 M cars (including both an f80/2 M3 and M4). I actually found the M cars were more aggressively set up out of the factory than my Porsches (even if they do have more adjustability).
Wow, so many cars in your history and you've never heard of a 911 non-s?

Please do post some times of all those cars you've owned and tracked extensively, we're all really curious how much potential you're extracting from such capable machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I couldnít disagree on tires. The new Cup2s are much better tires during a track day though they are not as ideal as others.

It goes to say, to your point, too many variables and deltas in driver skill to compare most times which is why the ďI passed X carĒ at an HPDE means nothing.
Thank you for confirming what both Absurdium and I have been saying from the beginning: that these cars are well within the reach from one another in REAL LIFE, with folks driving that are actually reading this thread... or are you writing to make sure Randy knows in which car he was faster?

How does that not contradict your earlier statement of 'these cars can't run together', 'comparing them is delusional', etc etc? This thread is about a track video, not a spec sheet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Thereís a big difference between a guy trying to have a little fun on a track in a 200k Gt3 just putting around and a few guys in cars ďracingĒ in much less expensive cars who are trying to be event heroís. Unless youíre out there racing for something against the clock I donít put much faith in that other than drivers experience and ability to push a car a bit.
So... folks in more expensive cars are not *actually* trying to go as fast as possible, they are just at the track for a Sunday drive, right? Why do you care about lap times then, or who can run with who? When people aren't trying to go as fast as they can, anyone in a bicycle can be faster than a Formula 1 car!

What a pathetic excuse... so there are no GT3's that aren't 'putting around', and only the less expensive cars are trying to be track heros? Have you ever actually been to the track?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
If you want to see which car is downright faster, only someone who can extract 100% of it will suffice. That is really the interesting part of watching someone like Randy, or Christian from SportAuto set a time. Otherwise the results are not telling you much when someone says ďI passed x car(s) at y trackĒ. That is more my point.

sV t what is your fastest time at The Glen?

...and my point is, who cares what car is 'downright faster', if YOU will not be faster in it? How does watching videos of LeBron help YOU be better at basketball?

...and why are my times suddenly relevant to you? Whatever happened to 'Ultimately, at my, your level comparisons are moot'? Are you saying what I can pull off in an M3 (stock, lightly modified, etc) is actually meaningful??
Appreciate 1
minn195810.50

      07-18-2019, 01:37 PM   #33
Funf6cyl
First Lieutenant
178
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: 6 cyl
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Synchronized

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Wow, so many cars in your history and you've never heard of a 911 non-s?

Please do post some times of all those cars you've owned and tracked extensively, we're all really curious how much potential you're extracting from such capable machines.



Thank you for confirming what both Absurdium and I have been saying from the beginning: that these cars are well within the reach from one another in REAL LIFE, with folks driving that are actually reading this thread... or are you writing to make sure Randy knows in which car he was faster?

How does that not contradict your earlier statement of 'these cars can't run together', 'comparing them is delusional', etc etc? This thread is about a track video, not a spec sheet.



So... folks in more expensive cars are not *actually* trying to go as fast as possible, they are just at the track for a Sunday drive, right? Why do you care about lap times then, or who can run with who? When people aren't trying to go as fast as they can, anyone in a bicycle can be faster than a Formula 1 car!

What a pathetic excuse... so there are no GT3's that aren't 'putting around', and only the less expensive cars are trying to be track heros? Have you ever actually been to the track?





...and my point is, who cares what car is 'downright faster', if YOU will not be faster in it? How does watching videos of LeBron help YOU be better at basketball?

...and why are my times suddenly relevant to you? Whatever happened to 'Ultimately, at my, your level comparisons are moot'? Are you saying what I can pull off in an M3 (stock, lightly modified, etc) is actually meaningful??
Relevant in that you say youíre fast at that track, so what do you consider fast there?
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2019, 01:37 PM   #34
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3748
Rep
5,558
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Man posting M car vs P car videos can be dangerous
Only because of the closet porsche-lovers... that usually can't afford them, and believe that it's what they need to get faster, as opposed to developing their own driving skills further. I know so, so many people that 'upgraded' to Porsches becasue they thought there was nothing more to be extracted from their M3... but man, they were so, so wrong. And I'm not talking about modifying the car!! Driver mod FTW

I have zero issues with people that respect driving skills and the development that comes with HPDE's, and have plenty of friends that drive Porsches!

And as for f8x vs e9x and weight... cars with stiffer suspensions (and associated components) feel sharper in turn in, but I have yet to find lighter cars that are actually faster in slower corners, it's bizarre really... the penalty I see with weight is consumables (tires, brake pads and fuel), but as we have all seen with a GTR, if you put the right components on a porker, it can be blisteringly fast around a track, and feel great while doing so
Appreciate 1
Absurdium142.00

      07-18-2019, 09:27 PM   #35
nicknaz
Major General
nicknaz's Avatar
United_States
2630
Rep
9,863
Posts

Drives: 6TT, model 3P, SM, F31 330
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Man posting M car vs P car videos can be dangerous
I for one am really glad you did.

Owners driving, on the same day with similar tires is as good of a comparison as youíll get

Where there any c6z or c7z or GS at that event?
Appreciate 2
minn195810.50
Absurdium142.00

      07-19-2019, 04:35 PM   #36
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3748
Rep
5,558
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
However the M4 is my daily driver thus my alignment settings and hardware cannot be as aggressive as his.
Absurdium, here are my alignment settings. It's an excellent setup
With a small jack it takes almost no time to switch from street to track settings.


FRONT
Add camber until you get to -3.0* camber. Mark the camber plate at that point for future reference
Toe: 1/8Ē out total
*If you cannot achieve -3.0 camber with 1/8Ē toe out, use the maximum negative camber possible

Then, remove camber until toe changes from 1/8Ē out total to 3/32Ē toe in. Mark the camber plates at that point for future reference.


Leave the front in this position


REAR
Camber -1.8*
Toe: 1/8Ē toe in total
*If you cannot achieve -1.8 camber with 1/8Ē toe out, use the maximum negative camber possible
Appreciate 1
Absurdium142.00

      07-19-2019, 06:22 PM   #37
Absurdium
First Lieutenant
Canada
142
Rep
319
Posts

Drives: F82 TB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Man posting M car vs P car videos can be dangerous
I for one am really glad you did.

Owners driving, on the same day with similar tires is as good of a comparison as you'll get

Where there any c6z or c7z or GS at that event?
Yup! A C6 actually slammed into the wall right in front of me and my buddy actually.


We were able to pass every vette there which included some C7s and GS but no z06s. I've seen some fast Vette drivers though, just not at this particular event. Something I was happy about was that a non-z06 C7 can't outrun the M4 on the back straight! I was able to keep up right on behind him the whole way. Obviously he gave me a bit of tow being right in front of me but it's pretty cool nonetheless.

Are you in the GTA as well? Would be awesome to get some F8X running together at CTMP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
However the M4 is my daily driver thus my alignment settings and hardware cannot be as aggressive as his.
Absurdium, here are my alignment settings. It's an excellent setup
With a small jack it takes almost no time to switch from street to track settings.


FRONT
Add camber until you get to -3.0* camber. Mark the camber plate at that point for future reference
Toe: 1/8" out total
*If you cannot achieve -3.0 camber with 1/8" toe out, use the maximum negative camber possible

Then, remove camber until toe changes from 1/8" out total to 3/32" toe in. Mark the camber plates at that point for future reference.


Leave the front in this position


REAR
Camber -1.8*
Toe: 1/8" toe in total
*If you cannot achieve -1.8 camber with 1/8" toe out, use the maximum negative camber possible
Oh interesting. I've only run a compromised set up doing -2.5 front slight toe out and -1.7 rear slight toe in. I'm definitely considering trying a more aggressive setting upfront as the car needs more than -2.5, so it's really good that you found a way to revert back to street settings! Thanks for the tip!
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2019, 07:10 PM   #38
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
United_States
3748
Rep
5,558
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/F80CS/X5 35/MiniCS
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Yup! A C6 actually slammed into the wall right in front of me and my buddy actually.


We were able to pass every vette there which included some C7s and GS but no z06s. I've seen some fast Vette drivers though, just not at this particular event. Something I was happy about was that a non-z06 C7 can't outrun the M4 on the back straight! I was able to keep up right on behind him the whole way. Obviously he gave me a bit of tow being right in front of me but it's pretty cool nonetheless.

Are you in the GTA as well? Would be awesome to get some F8X running together at CTMP.



Oh interesting. I've only run a compromised set up doing -2.5 front slight toe out and -1.7 rear slight toe in. I'm definitely considering trying a more aggressive setting upfront as the car needs more than -2.5, so it's really good that you found a way to revert back to street settings! Thanks for the tip!
A cool thing about these settings is that the camber change also induces a toe change which is beneficial. So the street setting has nice street toe and the track setting also has the appropriate level
Appreciate 1
Absurdium142.00

      07-19-2019, 07:14 PM   #39
NYG
Captain
NYG's Avatar
United_States
783
Rep
892
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4 CS
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Brooklyn, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
If you’re willing to run similar spec cars I’m in, but I now know you won’t because you’d have little to no chance of beating me.
I don't know you, so I won't judge but something tells me you're really underestimating SYT_Shadow.

I say this as a Porsche fan boy too.
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2019, 08:01 PM   #40
nicknaz
Major General
nicknaz's Avatar
United_States
2630
Rep
9,863
Posts

Drives: 6TT, model 3P, SM, F31 330
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Yup! A C6 actually slammed into the wall right in front of me and my buddy actually.


We were able to pass every vette there which included some C7s and GS but no z06s. I've seen some fast Vette drivers though, just not at this particular event. Something I was happy about was that a non-z06 C7 can't outrun the M4 on the back straight! I was able to keep up right on behind him the whole way. Obviously he gave me a bit of tow being right in front of me but it's pretty cool nonetheless.

Are you in the GTA as well? Would be awesome to get some F8X running together at CTMP.
!
Ouch. What happened? Looks like c6 got some oversteer in T2 and put 2 feet in?

I live in NorCal but my big brother is in TO and we hit up the track whenever I visit (he is kind enough to share his stock 981 gt4). Last time was in May and we did a test day at TMP because there were no events at mosport GP or DDT that weekend).

Iíll send you a PM next time I am there. Please feel free to do the same if you go to California. I do nasa NorCal and SCCA calclub events with my friends regularly and itís always nice to meet more people

I have only been to Mosport big track once and was in the 1:42 range with hand timing. I was not willing to fully commit in corners like T2, in a borrowed GT4 It would definitely be great to meet up at the tracks and Iíll be using your vid as a reference so thanks!
Appreciate 1
Absurdium142.00

      07-19-2019, 08:09 PM   #41
Funf6cyl
First Lieutenant
178
Rep
352
Posts

Drives: 6 cyl
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Synchronized

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
I don't know you, so I won't judge but something tells me you're really underestimating SYT_Shadow.

I say this as a Porsche fan boy too.
I donít think Iím underestimating him, but I am comfortable with my ability and general willingness to drive my car without hesitation or inhibition. Funny thing is, I know SVT from some mutual friend gatherings.

As I said, I can have a stock M3/4 provided for comparison so both cars are from the factory stock. Otherwise, it will be some time while I add full exhaust, Cobb tune, intake, and plenum and maybe a ultra lightweight set of wheels and some stickier tires.
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2019, 08:53 PM   #42
Absurdium
First Lieutenant
Canada
142
Rep
319
Posts

Drives: F82 TB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Yup! A C6 actually slammed into the wall right in front of me and my buddy actually.


We were able to pass every vette there which included some C7s and GS but no z06s. I've seen some fast Vette drivers though, just not at this particular event. Something I was happy about was that a non-z06 C7 can't outrun the M4 on the back straight! I was able to keep up right on behind him the whole way. Obviously he gave me a bit of tow being right in front of me but it's pretty cool nonetheless.

Are you in the GTA as well? Would be awesome to get some F8X running together at CTMP.



Oh interesting. I've only run a compromised set up doing -2.5 front slight toe out and -1.7 rear slight toe in. I'm definitely considering trying a more aggressive setting upfront as the car needs more than -2.5, so it's really good that you found a way to revert back to street settings! Thanks for the tip!
A cool thing about these settings is that the camber change also induces a toe change which is beneficial. So the street setting has nice street toe and the track setting also has the appropriate level
Yeah I noticed that! Thanks for the tip! Definitely will be tryingore aggressive settings next year. I'll be investing in some monoball joints and toe links along with a front bbk as well next year. Want to break into the 1:32/1:31s here next season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Yup! A C6 actually slammed into the wall right in front of me and my buddy actually.


We were able to pass every vette there which included some C7s and GS but no z06s. I've seen some fast Vette drivers though, just not at this particular event. Something I was happy about was that a non-z06 C7 can't outrun the M4 on the back straight! I was able to keep up right on behind him the whole way. Obviously he gave me a bit of tow being right in front of me but it's pretty cool nonetheless.

Are you in the GTA as well? Would be awesome to get some F8X running together at CTMP.
!
Ouch. What happened? Looks like c6 got some oversteer in T2 and put 2 feet in?

I live in NorCal but my big brother is in TO and we hit up the track whenever I visit (he is kind enough to share his stock 981 gt4). Last time was in May and we did a test day at TMP because there were no events at mosport GP or DDT that weekend).

I'll send you a PM next time I am there. Please feel free to do the same if you go to California. I do nasa NorCal and SCCA calclub events with my friends regularly and it's always nice to meet more people

I have only been to Mosport big track once and was in the 1:42 range with hand timing. I was not willing to fully commit in corners like T2, in a borrowed GT4 It would definitely be great to meet up at the tracks and I'll be using your vid as a reference so thanks!
He entered really narrow and realized he couldn't hold his line and panic lifted, or at least that's what it looked like to me. T2 requires a lot of commitment and delicate throttle balance. You can trail brake slightly after your main braking to ease in the nose like I did in the video but once at the crest, you need to have some throttle to keep the rear settled.

Ahh I see. The gp track is great! TMP is really not too great because it's very flat and harsh on brakes and tires. Come run with JRP if you guys get a chance! Decently cheap and relatively well done for the price. I'm pretty happy with my pace around the gp track but you can definitely commit harder into some of these corners! My motto is safe reliable speed so definitely wanted to ease into carrying faster speeds. The GT4 does great around here so if you guys ever end up coming, I'd love to get a few group runs in!

Thanks for the warm welcome! It may be hard to get a track car down to Cali for me but I'll keep that in mind! I actually want to turo some kind of vert down there and drive Mulholland and PCH as I've done that once and it was an epic drive. Might be hard to convince the turo guy to let me track his car though
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow3748.00

      07-19-2019, 09:12 PM   #43
nicknaz
Major General
nicknaz's Avatar
United_States
2630
Rep
9,863
Posts

Drives: 6TT, model 3P, SM, F31 330
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Yeah I noticed that! Thanks for the tip! Definitely will be tryingore aggressive settings next year. I'll be investing in some monoball joints and toe links along with a front bbk as well next year. Want to break into the 1:32/1:31s here next season.



He entered really narrow and realized he couldn't hold his line and panic lifted, or at least that's what it looked like to me. T2 requires a lot of commitment and delicate throttle balance. You can trail brake slightly after your main braking to ease in the nose like I did in the video but once at the crest, you need to have some throttle to keep the rear settled.

Ahh I see. The gp track is great! TMP is really not too great because it's very flat and harsh on brakes and tires. Come run with JRP if you guys get a chance! Decently cheap and relatively well done for the price. I'm pretty happy with my pace around the gp track but you can definitely commit harder into some of these corners! My motto is safe reliable speed so definitely wanted to ease into carrying faster speeds. The GT4 does great around here so if you guys ever end up coming, I'd love to get a few group runs in!

Thanks for the warm welcome! It may be hard to get a track car down to Cali for me but I'll keep that in mind! I actually want to turo some kind of vert down there and drive Mulholland and PCH as I've done that once and it was an epic drive. Might be hard to convince the turo guy to let me track his car though
Is this the correct link for JRP? https://www.speedtherapy.com

Yes, I could see from following other gt4 the car had more capability but driver mod was needed. Haha.

Well, I have posted on the forums previously that long time members could message me if they want to drive on tracks in Ca.

If you are just using HPDE and contribute to maintenance and get some track insurance I would have no problems lending out my cars. And maybe we could work something similar out when I travel to wherever the member lived.

Speaking of turo a friend has a manual golf R and jag f vert on turo. He would probably go to track with you, honestly.
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow3748.00

      07-19-2019, 11:01 PM   #44
Absurdium
First Lieutenant
Canada
142
Rep
319
Posts

Drives: F82 TB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: GTA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdium View Post
Yeah I noticed that! Thanks for the tip! Definitely will be tryingore aggressive settings next year. I'll be investing in some monoball joints and toe links along with a front bbk as well next year. Want to break into the 1:32/1:31s here next season.



He entered really narrow and realized he couldn't hold his line and panic lifted, or at least that's what it looked like to me. T2 requires a lot of commitment and delicate throttle balance. You can trail brake slightly after your main braking to ease in the nose like I did in the video but once at the crest, you need to have some throttle to keep the rear settled.

Ahh I see. The gp track is great! TMP is really not too great because it's very flat and harsh on brakes and tires. Come run with JRP if you guys get a chance! Decently cheap and relatively well done for the price. I'm pretty happy with my pace around the gp track but you can definitely commit harder into some of these corners! My motto is safe reliable speed so definitely wanted to ease into carrying faster speeds. The GT4 does great around here so if you guys ever end up coming, I'd love to get a few group runs in!

Thanks for the warm welcome! It may be hard to get a track car down to Cali for me but I'll keep that in mind! I actually want to turo some kind of vert down there and drive Mulholland and PCH as I've done that once and it was an epic drive. Might be hard to convince the turo guy to let me track his car though
Is this the correct link for JRP? https://www.speedtherapy.com

Yes, I could see from following other gt4 the car had more capability but driver mod was needed. Haha.

Well, I have posted on the forums previously that long time members could message me if they want to drive on tracks in Ca.

If you are just using HPDE and contribute to maintenance and get some track insurance I would have no problems lending out my cars. And maybe we could work something similar out when I travel to wherever the member lived.

Speaking of turo a friend has a manual golf R and jag f vert on turo. He would probably go to track with you, honestly.
Yup! Tbh I'm new to running with them but the price is good and you get decent track time so can't complain.

Oh man that would be awesome. Tbh I'm on the young side on this forum and I've only been tracking for 2 years. But I'm the type to spend hundreds of hours on the simulator to prep for a track day so I was able to improve pretty quickly haha. So if you don't mind my shorter driving history, I'd love to hit the tracks with you guys! (I'd pay for consumables and insurance of course).

Oh man I'd love a f-type vert in Cali weather. That thing sounds awesome Might just have to get in touch with you and your friend if I come for a visit haha
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
981, cayman, f82, mosport, track test

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:15 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST