CCBs on Track - Feedback Collection

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

That is absolutely false. Please think of this in terms of physics. The stock brakes of any car will easily overwhelm their tires, so both iron and ceramics 'brake' exactly as hard. They are both able to easily make ABS act.

This also means that the unimpressive stock brakes of the E92 brake exactly as much as a 10k BBK. Exactly the same. If someone says they 'feel' the bbk braking harder they are lying

The difference between stock brakes and a 10k bbk is seen under track use. 'Spirited driving' does not qualify as track use

This is worse than the torque vs power discussion

Just because you can lockup a wheel with steel (iron if you prefer) rotors, doesn't mean that the braking action is just as good as with CCB's. If that was the case, we'ld all be still running with drum brakes. IOW - just because you can lockup virtually any wheel with a DRUM brake - doesn't make them as good as CCB's either...

The point is that the CCB's modulate better and provide a much more linear braking action with respect to the force applied. No drama. And they do this reliably, without fading, and in very extreme conditions.

I've driven M4's on the Nurburgring with BMW for the last 3 yearsand they all had steel brakes with competition pads (I asked about the pads). This amounts to 2 full days each year for a total of 6 days on the Ring in M4's with steel rotors.

My car, and the M4's I've driven with BMW domestically, all have CCB's. I track my car frequently and I do 2 or 3 BMW Advanced driving schools each year.

I can tell you, from my perspective, the CCB's out perform the steel brakes by a wide margin. Nice linear braking action in a very reliable manner. Based on my experience, I really like these brakes.

HOWEVER, the discussion, from my point of view, is going to be whether the replacement frequency and cost will JUSTIFY using these brakes on my track car long term. I will only be able to make that assessment once I know how long my rotors actually last...

If someone else is paying for the brakes (i.e. BMW Driving School) then there is no question which type of brakes I would prefer for on track use!

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

This is correct. With stock pads, the CCB will outperform the iron rotors in fade performance.

However, put proper track pads on the irons and the fade resistance will be very close.

Don't confuse "feel" and actual performance. We've had that discussion a few times in the past. So far, there is no empirical data that shows CCB to outperform irons with track pads. CCB offer many benefits, however shorter braking distances is not one of them.

Have you finally taken you car to the track? If not, guess who's trolling...

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It is very unlikely you are able to exceed the temperature threshold of the stock iron brakes on the street. Exceptionally unlikely.

This makes your comment of 'much better in spirited driving' false

At the track, with track pads on the iron brakes you will also be unable to fade them. Master C17 tracked with 600hp with track pads and iron brakes and he never faded them.

My car spends 30 days a year at the track. It is likely it is driven significantly harder than yours.
The brakes do not fade, not even a hint of fade, regardless of how fast I'm going or how sticky the tires are.

You 2 guys keep saying "track pads"

BMW does not sell the car with heavy duty track/racing pads... Hence both of you are wrong and are arguing an irrelevant point

M4 w/ CCB vs M4 w/ STOCK BRAKE SETUP is different than upgrading your stocks with racings components... no fuckin shit it will be better than stock.....

The point here was stock vs ccb

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

You 2 guys keep saying "track pads"

BMW does not sell the car with heavy duty track/racing pads... Hence both of you are wrong and are arguing an irrelevant point

M4 w/ CCB vs M4 w/ STOCK BRAKE SETUP is different than upgrading your stocks with racings components... no fuckin shit it will be better than stock.....

The point here was stock vs ccb

I never said BMW was running their M4's on the ring with STOCK pads!

I said they were running Competition Pads (track pads). ...and I also said I specifically asked them about this as the braking action WAS better than the stock setup. So, yes, they did upgrade the brakes on the cars in the German driving school.

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I never said BMW was running their M4's on the ring with STOCK pads! So before you get all worked up, you should actually read the message and work to comprehend what it says.

I said they were running Competition Pads (track pads). ...and I also said I specifically asked them about this as the braking action WAS better than the stock setup. So, yes, they did upgrade the brakes on the cars in the German driving school.

wasnt talking about your comments hence i quoted 2 other individuals who dont believe in Brembo lol

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

wasnt talking about your comments hence i quoted 2 other individuals who dont believe in Brembo lol

Yeah - I saw that and edited my post before you got it... (sorry)

Point stands though...

I've driven both on the track and I much prefer the CCB's. They establish better friction earlier and maintain much more linear braking effort all the way up. Just easier to use and less drama than other solutions. The braking response simply provides more confidence to roll in later and harder (fo me anyway). ...and I've burned up a $600 front set of CCB pads in 4 track days so it appears I'm putting them to good use. I'm also running GT Group A lap times in a basically stock M4 at AutobahnCC.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

You 2 guys keep saying "track pads"

BMW does not sell the car with heavy duty track/racing pads... Hence both of you are wrong and are arguing an irrelevant point

M4 w/ CCB vs M4 w/ STOCK BRAKE SETUP is different than upgrading your stocks with racings components... no fuckin shit it will be better than stock.....

The point here was stock vs ccb

We're going in circles with this. This is the track section. Any serious tracker will be running track pads, so it is not irrelevant.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Yeah - I saw that and edited my post before you got it... (sorry)

Point stands though...

I've driven both on the track and I much prefer the CCB's. They establish better friction earlier and maintain much more linear braking effort all the way up. Just easier to use and less drama than other solutions. The braking response simply provides more confidence to roll in later and harder (fo me anyway). ...and I've burned up a $600 front set of CCB pads in 4 track days so it appears I'm putting them to good use. I'm also running GT Group A lap times in a basically stock M4 at AutobahnCC.

You keep coming back with subjective impressions. I have no doubt that the CCB feel very stout and are very confidence inspiring. I will continue to doubt they offer better track braking performance than the irons with track pads until I see empirical/objective evidence.

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

We're going in circles with this. This is the track section. Any serious tracker will be running track pads, so it is not irrelevant.

You're going in circles... then once you are wrong, you change up your words... "oh i wasnt talking about stock M brakes, i was talking about upgrading my pads to track spec" no shit there will be a difference between stock pads and track pads

There are upgraded carbon pads too... stock for stock, CCB will outshine stocks indeed, every time

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I can tell you, from my perspective, the CCB's out perform the steel brakes by a wide margin. Nice linear braking action in a very reliable manner. Based on my experience, I really like these brakes.

Iron brakes have a nice linear braking action in a very reliable manner as well.

There is no evidence of this 'wide margin' you speak of.
-On the street there is zero difference regardless of how 'fast' you're going
-On the track, the steel brakes need track pads and then there is zero difference as well

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

You're going in circles... then once you are wrong, you change up your words... "oh i wasnt talking about stock M brakes, i was talking about upgrading my pads to track spec" no shit there will be a difference between stock pads and track pads

There are upgraded carbon pads too... stock for stock, CCB will outshine stocks indeed, every time

You and evan are wrong. Literally, this discussion is like one between two people who say Earth is flat and two that say it's round. Are you a member of this site by any chance? http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/

You can stomp your feet and laugh, but you're defending Earth's flatness. Scary stuff!
Don't worry though, I've encountered engineering students that tell me the maximum acceleration of a car is at the max torque point instead of the max horsepower one, so we'll continue the discussion until you understand

On street use there is no difference. One of you said 'clearly superior' on the street. That is a lie or ignorance. Maybe both.

On the track, needing track pads for the iron brakes is nothing that should surprise you. So if you are trying to compare what is better *at the track* between iron and CCB if an alien race rules the world and does not allow you to use track pads, then you win and CCBs are better
Meanwhile, everyone else puts a track pads into their iron-brake M3 and laughs at the 'very superior braking' of the CCB guys

Had you said you preferred the CCBs because they allowed you to go to the track without changing your pads out you would make sense. That is an argument that can be made. The issue is you say the CCBs are superior to iron brakes on the street and the track. I'm very interested in the why

By they way, you can change your pads all you want on the CCBs. If the stock ones don't fade, then guess what? You will see no advantage in swapping pads.

Brakes stop functioning at the tires' limit of adhesion when their temperature overheats the pad compount. This is only possible on a race track for a car like an M. At said racetrack, it is as simple as swapping the iron brakes to a race compound pad which doesn't overheat

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

You're going in circles... then once you are wrong, you change up your words... "oh i wasnt talking about stock M brakes, i was talking about upgrading my pads to track spec" no shit there will be a difference between stock pads and track pads

There are upgraded carbon pads too... stock for stock, CCB will outshine stocks indeed, every time

I was clear right from my first post in this thread about using track pads.

You can keep livin' in you CCB fanboy dreamworld if it makes you happy

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I was clear right from my first post about using track pads.

You can keep livin' in you CCB fanboy dreamworld if it makes you happy

Yeah they're fuckin sick.. One day you should try them out

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Had you said you preferred the CCBs because they allowed you to go to the track without changing your pads out you would make sense. That is an argument that can be made. t

Why would i say something that is already common sense.. maybe you're lacking some.. If thats the case then justify why its bad to have no brake dust, have 6 piston GOLD brembo calipers with huge Carbon Ceramic Discs, for a fraction of the cost compared to PCCB

https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/...FQtsfgodQQIJwQ

case closed./

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Yeah they're fuckin sick.. One day you should try them out

Actually, I did. I found they felt very good .

Not worth the extra operating cost for no braking performance advantage for my track use though.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Why would i say something that is already common sense.. maybe you're lacking some.. If thats the case then justify why its bad to have no brake dust, have 6 piston GOLD brembo calipers with huge Carbon Ceramic Discs, for a fraction of the cost compared to PCCB

https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/...FQtsfgodQQIJwQ

case closed./

Having no brake dust is awesome! I love that about CCBs! I would not buy them for this.

You were talking about brake performance in actual braking and that is where you are wrong.

Incidentally, your PM has been reported to a moderator. You should be able to argue your point without making fun of people's income and discussing their private parts and entry/egress of various tools and utensils

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Having no brake dust is awesome! I love that about CCBs! I would not buy them for this.

You were talking about brake performance in actual braking and that is where you are wrong.

Incidentally, your PM has been reported to a moderator. You should be able to argue your point without making fun of people's income and discussing their private parts and entry/egress of various tools and utensils

They're definitely better in braking performance based off track time.. like i said YES, they are expensive but you get what you pay for

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Actually, I did. I found they felt very good .

Not worth the extra operating cost for no braking performance advantage my track use though.

If you cant afford it, dont knock it

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

They're definitely better in braking performance based off track time.. like i said YES, they are expensive but you get what you pay for

They most definitely do not brake better than iron brakes.
In this case, what you get for your 8k are brakes that don't dust and do not require you to change their pads for track use
What you do not get is better performance

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

They most definitely do not brake better than steel brakes.
In this case, what you get for your 8k are brakes that don't dust and do not require you to change their pads for track use
What you do not get is better performance

Indeed CCB results in better performance over stock brakes and stock pads...

Stock pads suffer around 500-700 degrees and the rotors get warped and overheat fast which results in POOR PERFORMANCE...

How is that better??? i really dont understand

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

What you do not get is better performance

With CCB, you get better performance for a MUCH longer time compared to stock brakes and stock pads.. i will guarantee you this

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Indeed CCB results in better performance over stock brakes and stock pads...

Stock pads suffer around 500-700 degrees and the rotors get warped and overheat fast which results in POOR PERFORMANCE...

How is that better??? i really dont understand

With track pads, you are unable to overheat the iron brakes.

As far as convenience is concerned, you have two things going for CCB:
No pad change for track use
No brake dust

You also have a problem, fragile rotors

Convenience != performance

[chillindrdude]

This is subjective, but my impressions were that CCB offers decreased unsprung weight and better heat resistance/dissipation. Braking force and the resultant distance, at optimum operating temps, are equivalent.

Personally, as a privateer track rat with a limited budget, I would opt for steel brakes on this F8x platform. It's been well matched for the weight of the car. I can replace components at a cheaper cost than the CCB system. Which in the final calculation, leads me with the opinion that the Carbon ceramics are NOT superior to the steel brakes.