6MT or DCT?

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

So is mine. That's the way launch control works. You hold the brake to the floor with your left foot and the throttle to the floor with your right foot and then let the brake go.

The issue with the drivers in the Cars and Coffee videos is probably the fact that they turned off stability control rather than the type of transmission.

I have to use my left foot for the clutch instead of brake...

And for sure. I'm sure they drive out, see a crowd, so instantly turn of TC and apply 100% throttle

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by dinonz

I think a lot of the anger about the DCT vs Automatic argument is for those who don't want to be "seen driving grannies automatic car, and don't want to hand over their man card either". They try to defend it as being a "manual" transmission.

That's probably the case for some, however I think it's a super important distinction that a DCT is NOT what most people think of when you say "automatic transmission"; which is a control that has P,R,N,D,L and that causes the car to behave as all planetary / torque converter transmissions behave.

You don't have to go farther than the DCT thread to see how many people get super confused by it. Further, if the DCT did behave like a that, I wouldn't get one and I suspect many others wouldn't either.

So the point is, whatever we call it, a DCT is between an MT and "an automatic" - and much much closer to an MT - which is why anyone who hasnt driven an MT will have a much steeper learning curve. MT drivers will get the DCT instantly as you can feel the clutches work and the car behaves exactly like an MT ... except with an automated clutch ... and that's probably because that's exactly what it is.

For example, when the car is cold the DCT clutch engages slower - people ask about that all of the time because "automatics" don't do that - but anyone who's driven an MT knows exactly what a cold clutch feels like, and they know how to feather a clutch, so a cold DCT feels completely normal to MT drivers and you just feather the throttle a little more (since it's also the clutch).

For MT drivers that's instinctual, for non-MT drivers they start a thread wondering if their car is broken.

Another example is "creep", another example is "park", another example is rolling backwards, etc etc. And that's also why so many people who have never driven nor understand MTs are perplexed by the DCT.

And why we should never call a DCT an "automatic", even if that's grammatically correct.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

That's probably the case for some, however I think it's a super important distinction that a DCT is NOT what most people think of when you say "automatic transmission"; which is a control that has P,R,N,D,L and that causes the car to behave as all planetary / torque converter transmissions behave.

You don't have to go farther than the DCT thread to see how many people get super confused by it. Further, if the DCT did behave like a that, I wouldn't get one and I suspect many others wouldn't either.

So the point is, whatever we call it, a DCT is between an MT and "an automatic" - and much much closer to an MT - which is why anyone who hasnt driven an MT will have a much steeper learning curve. MT drivers will get the DCT instantly as you can feel the clutches work and the car behaves exactly like an MT ... except with an automated clutch ... and that's probably because that's exactly what it is.

For example, when the car is cold the DCT clutch engages slower - people ask about that all of the time because "automatics" don't do that - but anyone who's driven an MT knows exactly what a cold clutch feels like, and they know how to feather a clutch, so a cold DCT feels completely normal to MT drivers and you just feather the throttle a little more. For MT drivers it's instinctual, for non-MT drivers they start a thread wondering if their car is broken.

And that's also why so many people who have never driven nor understand MTs are perplexed by the DCT.

The PRNDL ATs that you are describing are as far removed from the ZF AT in the M5, Jaguar F-Type, Maserati GT and BMW M235i Factory Racer is as 3 speed, three on the tree with no synchomesh in first gear are from a modern 6 or 7 speed manual transmission.

The ZF 8 Speed does not behave like a PRNDL torque converter, planetary geared transmission of 50 years ago and when programmed as it is in the M235i Factory Racer is almost indistinguishable from the DCT.

Although the DCT may have the same "cold clutch" behavior as an MT, cold clutch is not a particularly desirable characteristic of an MT and if he ZF 8 AT does not have it I would hardly consider that a disadvantage.

I have driven an M4 DCT and an M235i Factory Racer (ZFf 8 Speed) aand an M3 MT back to back on the same track on the same day and although the transmissions do not feel exactly the same they are close and the experience of driving the DCT was a lot closer to the experience of driving the ZF 8 Speed than it was to driving an MT.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The PRNDL ATs that you are describing are as far removed from the ZF AT in the M5, Jaguar F-Type, Maserati GT and BMW M235i Factory Racer is as 3 speed, three on the tree with no synchomesh in first gear are from a modern 6 or 7 speed manual transmission.

That's great and all, but I wasn't addressing the ZF and one could throw in Benz's AMG AT with its wet clutch pack in place of torque converter and "double de-clutching" behavior, just putting the clutches on the planetary sets.

I'm sure the ZF and Benz's and other ATs are super cool and I'll try them ... but they don't have anything to do with what's widely available today which are MTs, "automatics", and DCTs - and most people try to shorten that list to just MT vs DCT, which also happens to the be title of this thread.

So my point was, one shouldn't shorten MTs, DCTs, and Automatics to MT vs DCT ... primarily because it confuses people who don't know that a DCT is NOT an "automatic" and secondarily because it's not technically correct, and you're adding a third point which is there other "automatics" which are also not DCTs.

[Jim B]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The PRNDL ATs that you are describing are as far removed from the ZF AT in the M5, Jaguar F-Type, Maserati GT and BMW M235i Factory Racer is as 3 speed, three on the tree with no synchomesh in first gear are from a modern 6 or 7 speed manual transmission.

The ZF 8 Speed does not behave like a PRNDL torque converter, planetary geared transmission of 50 years ago and when programmed as it is in the M235i Factory Racer is almost indistinguishable from the DCT.

Although the DCT may have the same "cold clutch" behavior as an MT, cold clutch is not a particularly desirable characteristic of an MT and if he ZF 8 AT does not have it I would hardly consider that a disadvantage.

I have driven an M4 DCT and an M235i Factory Racer (ZFf 8 Speed) aand an M3 MT back to back on the same track on the same day and although the transmissions do not feel exactly the same they are close and the experience of driving the DCT was a lot closer to the experience of driving the ZF 8 Speed than it was to driving an MT.

The ZF 8 Speed AT is also used in the Dodge Challenger and Charger Hellcats.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by supremeauto

After having both from the e92 to the new m3/4/5 dct set ups the dct has gained a a lot in my opinion, even tho purist will always want a 6 speed, daily driving and the racing world is going to autos in 90% + of production and race cars now so there has to be some reasoning. Example why would Porsche drop the manual to go pdk..

It's all about connection with the car:

Real purists crank it

[Parabolica]

Are you people still on this?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

Are you people still on this?

Only purists and enthusiasts.

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

Are you people still on this?

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Only purists and enthusiasts.

And those that can't admit both are just fine!

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Fire must cleanse us

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by pheerlx

Fire must cleanse us

Geezus dude, careful, you're gonna scorch your ding-dong

[VikingM4]

Manual is the way to go...

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by VikingM4

Manual is the way to go...

The way to go where?

The best way to go is dependent on where you are going and how quickly you want to get there and of course how much you enjoy the trip. And all of that is generally a matter of individual preference.

[katit]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The way to go where?

Anywhere

[Nikolas]

Why didn?t BMW have a ?P? for the DCT? Porsche has it in the PDK. Seems a little odd.

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Why didn?t BMW have a ?P? for the DCT? Porsche has it in the PDK. Seems a little odd.

Because the P stands for .... Porsche

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Why didn?t BMW have a ?P? for the DCT? Porsche has it in the PDK. Seems a little odd.

DCT is in English (Dual Clutch Transmission). In German, they often use DKG (Doppel Kupplung Getrieb). PDK stands Porsche Doppel Kupplung

[Squddie]

In my definition it is a manual when you have a driver-controlled clutch (preferably on a pedal) and can disengage the motor from the transmission at will.

Yes, I count the first form of sequential transmission to be manual. You don't have to use the clutch to shift but you can use the clutch to disengage, and you have to on a stop. Plus I think it is cool that the next gear is only snapping in when you hit the right spot on the other pedal (the gas pedal).

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

Are you people still on this?

This is almost as bad as the 'So, what's up' let's hide here thread

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

DCT is in English (Dual Clutch Transmission). In German, they often use DKG (Doppel Kupplung Getrieb). PDK stands Porsche Doppel Kupplung

Could be wrong but think he was referring to P as in a "park" position. But good info nonetheless

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Could be wrong but think he was referring to P as in a "park" position. But good info nonetheless

[shay2nak]

I test drove a DCT ZCP a few weeks back and now I can compare to my 6MT I took home last Thursday. 6MT is 1000000x better than the DCT. I really like the manual in this car. I have to wait until I hit 1200 miles, but my turtle driving around tha hood is even enjoyable. I have to get used to the auto rev match as I do it myself. Really it felt weird driving the DCT...nothing special IMHO.