6MT or DCT?

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There has been more and more "automation" added to motor vehicles through the years. Even in "manual" transmissions. Synchromesh that automatically match the gear and dog speeds have been added, there are clutch dampers that automatically control clutch engagement and now we even have automatic engine blips for rev matching. As a more extreme example, in the early days, a drivers had to manually adjust the engine mixture and ignition timing depending on driving conditions. So yes, one can say that driving is getting less involved from a mechanical standpoint nowadays. But that is progress. I find the involvement comes from the increased speeds provided by the advancements in technology.

When I started driving for the "sport" 25 to 30 years ago, the vast majority of performance oriented drivers opted for manual transmissions for a simple reason: because it was the better performance option. Not because we had to row gears or press a clutch pedal. But because a manual transmission offered a hard connection between the engine and the drive wheels for better control of applied power, precise driver selected gears, better efficiency and better acceleration. It was the better performance choice. With the avenue of DCT (and some automatics), the tide has reversed. All the drawback of traditional automatics are gone. The torque decoupling from the torque converter, the lag in changing gears, the slower acceleration all gone. The DCT is now the better performance option, hence why many performance oriented driver now prefer DCT over manual.

All that being said, I also perfectly understand why some still prefer manual transmissions for the increased "involvement". I still very much enjoy hopping in a manual car and nailing that perfect rev matched heel-and-toe downshift when entering a corner.

What he said!

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

All that being said, I also perfectly understand why some still prefer manual transmissions for the increased "involvement". I still very much enjoy hopping in a manual car and nailing that perfect rev matched heel-and-toe downshift when entering a corner.

I was recently in Spain for a week and driving a nice MT with some good sport runs.

The first day I was thrilled to be in an MT again - so fun!!

The rest of the days ... not so fun.

By the end of the week i was begging for the DCT because MTs are soooo slow on a complex road course.

So yes, MTs are fun and involving, and so are all kinds of hobbyist conveyances like bikes, sail boats, etc ... but MTs are not fast around a track or road course as fun as they can be to drive when you're not trying to go fast.

[420Coupe]

6 MT no questions.

[CPB]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

By the end of the week i was begging for the DCT because MTs are soooo slow on a complex road course.

Don't blame the MT, it's you that's slow.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by CPB

Don't blame the MT, it's you that's slow.

yeah, but not in a DCT, that's the thing!

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I was recently in Spain for a week and driving a nice MT with some good sport runs.

The first day I was thrilled to be in an MT again - so fun!!

The rest of the days ... not so fun.

By the end of the week i was begging for the DCT because MTs are soooo slow on a complex road course.

So yes, MTs are fun and involving, and so are all kinds of hobbyist conveyances like bikes, sail boats, etc ... but MTs are not fast around a track or road course as fun as they can be to drive when you're not trying to go fast.

I too was in Spain, picked up a nice MB with AT and headed for Portugal. First day, not bad, easier especially on steep hills of Porto, don't have to think as much, kinda fun, relaxing.

The rest of the days... not so fun.

By the end of the week i was begging for the MT because ATs are soooo boring.

So yes, AT can be fun despite being less involving, and so are crossword puzzles sometimes. But when I got home and drove my own MT car again...

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

By the end of the week i was begging for the MT because ATs are soooo boring.

i bet!

Next time, ditch the AT and sport drive a DCT; by the end of the week you'll drive faster than you ever have in your life.

[gunsmoker]

Unless one is doing competition racing, how much faster the dct is has zero importance. What matters to 90% of us is which tranny we enjoy the most, which may include bragging about how much faster yours is OK, you dct guy win. Now let me go have a blast with my 6mt.
While this is a pontless discussion, I was shocked to find out from the poll that 53% of the resppndents own 6mt. That is our win. Save the manuals!

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by gunsmoker

Unless one is doing competition racing, how much faster the dct is has zero importance. What matters to 90% of us is which tranny we enjoy the most, which may include bragging about how much faster yours is OK, you dct guy win. Now let me go have a blast with my 6mt.
While this is a pontless discussion, I was shocked to find out from the poll that 53% of the resppndents own 6mt. That is our win. Save the manuals!

Yes, because 68,000 have been sold, and 1259 use 6MT! Big win! Hillary in a landslide!

[Captain Dang]

When looking for a new performance car it came down to 2 choices. The Audi RS5 and the BMW M4. The M got my vote because it was available in a manual transmission. For me it made the difference.

[tommastie]

DCT for me

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by gunsmoker

Unless one is doing competition racing, how much faster the dct is has zero importance. What matters to 90% of us is which tranny we enjoy the most, which may include bragging about how much faster yours is OK, you dct guy win.

If you aren't competing & bragging about your speed every time you push the start button ...

... then why the fuck did you buy an M car??

[gunsmoker]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Yes, because 68,000 have been sold, and 1259 use 6MT! Big win! Hillary in a landslide!

Go to cars.com and see what's for sale in the US for MY 2015-2018 - 292 manuals out of 502 M3 cars. But of course you will say more manuals are for sale because they suck pond water or because this is fake news. DCT wins again! So much winning - Donald, please stop, we had enough DCT wins already!
To be honest with you, I don't care how many manuals are being sold, as long as they are being offered and I can get mine.

[crand002]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I was recently in Spain for a week and driving a nice MT with some good sport runs.

The first day I was thrilled to be in an MT again - so fun!!

The rest of the days ... not so fun.

By the end of the week i was begging for the DCT because MTs are soooo slow on a complex road course.

So yes, MTs are fun and involving, and so are all kinds of hobbyist conveyances like bikes, sail boats, etc ... but MTs are not fast around a track or road course as fun as they can be to drive when you're not trying to go fast.

It sounds like you need some coaching if you are that much slower on a twisty roadin a manual. My 2016 ACR-E is no sailboat ride around a track, I’ll make you puke in that car.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by crand002

It sounds like you need some coaching if you are that much slower on a twisty roadin a manual. My 2016 ACR-E is no sailboat ride around a track, I’ll make you puke in that car.

If I wanted to be fast in an MT, absolutely I could use MT coaching, but MTs will always be slower than DCTs, so why would I want that coaching?

An MT is a fun retro throwback, but it's not a serious modern competition transmission - we've been through all of this. My uncle has lots of old timey contraptions that also make me puke - but none them would beat me around a track, just like you wouldn't either in an MT M4 vs me in a DCT M4.

But that's only because you'd have gotten stuck with the slower transmission, not because you're a worse driver - no driver is good enough to compensate for hugely inadequate equipment.

But you're right, MTs are much more fun for slow driving.

[Dimitri]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If you aren't competing & bragging about your speed every time you push the start button ...

... then why the fuck did you buy an M car??

[Dimitri]

Oh.... and DCT all day long

[Circuit Hunter]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If I wanted to be fast in an MT, absolutely I could use MT coaching, but MTs will always be slower than DCTs, so why would I want that coaching?

An MT is a fun retro throwback, but it's not a serious modern competition transmission - we've been through all of this. My uncle has lots of old timey contraptions that also make me puke - but none them would beat me around a track, just like you wouldn't either in an MT M4 vs me in a DCT M4.

But that's only because you'd have gotten stuck with the slower transmission, not because you're a worse driver - no driver is good enough to compensate for hugely inadequate equipment.

But you're right, MTs are much more fun for slow driving.

You are changing the goal posts. I don't disagree that a DCT M3/M4 is quicker than a manual M3/M4. I've owned both a DCT and manual F80. How do you know I can't beat you my manual car? What you fail to understand is that a good driver is a good driver regardless of the transmission. Additionally, many technical tracks like Chuckwalla only require 4-5 gear changes per lap, there are hundreds of ways to gain or lose time other than from a small number of gear changes.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Circuit Hunter

You are changing the goal posts. I don't disagree that a DCT M3/M4 is quicker than a manual M3/M4. I've owned both a DCT and manual F80. How do you know I can't beat you my manual car? What you fail to understand is that a good driver is a good driver regardless of the transmission. Additionally, many technical tracks like Chuckwalla only require 4-5 gear changes per lap, there are hundreds of ways to gain or lose time other than from a small number of gear changes.

Lets assume that that the DCT with 4-5 gear changes will have an advantage (probably a conservative figure) of 1/50 of a second per lap . All things being equal at the end of a 50 lap race the DCT will be 1 second ahead. When you consider how close the finishes in many races are that is a significant advantage.

This is probably a meaningless statistic to most M3/4 owners, including me, as they are not going to enter the car in a 50 lap race. We don't buy they cars because we need them, we buy them because we want them. The fact that there is an options list gives evidence to the fact that buyers want to be able to choose what colors, features, suspensions, upholstery and transmissions they prefer. I made my choices and respect the fact that not everyone made the same choices. I like the fact that to a certain extent my car is an expression of my individuality and it is not likely that when I see another M4 it will not be identical to mine. I chose what I prefer and I assume everyone else has done the same.

[High Octane]

Originally Posted by Captain Dang

When looking for a new performance car it came down to 2 choices. The Audi RS5 and the BMW M4. The M got my vote because it was available in a manual transmission. For me it made the difference.

Same here, except with a C63AMG. Nice car, but I just love driving a manual car and shifting the gears. It's what made me buy the M4.

[Circuit Hunter]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Lets assume that that the DCT with 4-5 gear changes will have an advantage (probably a conservative figure) of 1/50 of a second per lap . All things being equal at the end of a 50 lap race the DCT will be 1 second ahead. When you consider how close the finishes in many races are that is a significant advantage.

This is probably a meaningless statistic to most M3/4 owners, including me, as they are not going to enter the car in a 50 lap race. We don't buy they cars because we need them, we buy them because we want them. The fact that there is an options list gives evidence to the fact that buyers want to be able to choose what colors, features, suspensions, upholstery and transmissions they prefer. I made my choices and respect the fact that not everyone made the same choices. I like the fact that to a certain extent my car is an expression of my individuality and it is not likely that when I see another M4 it will not be identical to mine. I chose what I prefer and I assume everyone else has done the same.

I don't disagree with any of that. The same driver with same car will be faster with a DCT over a long race. I loved my DCT car and I don't fault anyone for getting one. For me there is nothing like being able to master a manual, and I have a long road ahead in that journey. An acquaintance of mine who I track with is a magician with his manual M2. I've never seen a DCT M2 or DCT F80/82 come close to his times.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Circuit Hunter

I don't disagree with any of that. The same driver with same car will be faster with a DCT over a long race. I loved my DCT car and I don't fault anyone for getting one. For me there is nothing like being able to master a manual, and I have a long road ahead in that journey. An acquaintance of mine who I track with is a magician with his manual M2. I've never seen a DCT M2 or DCT F80/82 come close to his times.

Now put him in DCT and I bet he beats all his best MT times.

And that's the point: there's the fastest you can drive, and that's always faster than the fastest you can drive in an MT.

And for me, winning is just more fun but that doesn't mean I don't love MTs, I do, I just like winning more than mastering anachronistic technologies ... although I like that too. Few things are more fun that sailing, which I don't do for speed, but for relaxing. That's also when I drive an MT.