2015 BMW M4 vs. 2015 Lexus RC F – MotorTrend Head 2 Head

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by zer0cool

I ll watch this video when I get the chance.

Seeing the responses, definitely many BMW fans here. I am also a BMW fan, but not a superfan I guess...

I think looks are totally subjective, and I like Lexus IS/RC looks way more than BMW 3/4. Also based on experience (I owned a Lexus GS Fsport for a year or so, and drove multiple Lexuses during maintenance etc), Lexus interior quality and feel > BMW (this is true at every class level). Both my wife and I now drive BMWs, so we love BMW, but I just objectively cannot say BMW > Lexus in quality... It is clearly the other way around. Also Lexus >> BMW in comfort in every way.

However, Lexus engines are still naturally aspirated. I cannot buy that, since I don't drive cars on a track, and hate driving a car at high rev. I really wish somehow there can be a hybrid (not gas electric hybrid) car where one puts BMW M3 engine, transmission, suspension, etc in a IS/RC F body with say Lexus GS interior... However such a car doesn't exist... So If I want a car that handles well, accelerates well, stable, changes gear well, etc, at fairly low revs, I got no choice but to buy a BMW.

Why can't there be a car that drives like a M3, and is as comfortable and quiet as Lexus GS?

BMW interiors are spartan and that is a design choice by intent. I think the lexus has nicer leather on most trims. I can only speak of the LS460 I drove 4+ years ago, and the recent RX- but the buttons and some of the trim seem to be shared with Toyotas. Their plastic trim is nothing special.

Lexus exteriors are too confusing to me, everything is exaggerated and excessive. Lines are too sharp, angles are too harsh, accents are too big.

but i'm sure they're reliable!

[N54B30A]

Originally Posted by damnitBobby

its important to note the rcf was only slower at the track by a few tenth seconds.. respectable for a 4k pound car

but still it looks hideous lol

Yeah but i feel like the m4 time is not an accurate representation. The driver gets sideways half the time. Last i checked oversteer hurts lap times. Either way it was a good comparison just a shame the driver didn't know how to use all that extra torque in corners.

[Deluxx3]

That Lexus is utterly hideous.
Clearly Lexus loves Nike

[VCP]

Originally Posted by sahyoun

Yeah but i feel like the m4 time is not an accurate representation. The driver gets sideways half the time. Last i checked oversteer hurts lap times. Either way it was a good comparison just a shame the driver didn't know how to use all that extra torque in corners.

Bye bye PSS's and problem solved.

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by sahyoun

Yeah but i feel like the m4 time is not an accurate representation. The driver gets sideways half the time. Last i checked oversteer hurts lap times. Either way it was a good comparison just a shame the driver didn't know how to use all that extra torque in corners.

On street tires you have to be constantly on the edge of grip to turn in good times...
Can you list for us your racing accomplishments even on the grassroot level? Hahahaha

Pobst was the 2003, 2007, 2008, and 2010 SCCA World Challenge GT champion, the 1996 North American Touring Car Championship title winner, and the 2005, 2006 and 2007 SCCA World Challenge TC vice-champion.
He is also a two-time class winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona, in 2001 and 2006.

[JeffM-Houston]

Where do people get the idea that a real BMW has a V8? For those youngsters BMW became famed for their straight 4's & 6's. Back in the day the 320/6 was the hot ticket, a 2l six with a carburetor. What a ride. Some of us bemoaned the day they went away from the 6 and put a common old V8 in the M3.

[Kurt_OH]

The Bimmer isn't a great looker, but Jehosephat that Lexus is an ugly joke.

I am a bit surprised by how poorly the Bimmer's rear grip. I'm not sure the attempt to soften the front/firm the back to reduce understeer is paying exactly the dividends envisioned.

As for reliability of "sports cars", well, first let's find a couple sports cars. Nothing that can be had with 4 doors, and nothing that weighs 4k qualifies for that title. But directly to the point: is there really anyone in the Western world who doesn't think the Lexus will outlast the Bimmer?

Still, no comparison for me. I'll admit to being a bit of a "homer" on this; I'd likely test drive the M3/M4 and if I liked it, buy it without even driving anything else. But even if I DID try other cars, you'll never see me owning that Lexus. I'll look at other German cars, and even an STi or 'Vette before that Lexus.

That would apply even if the Lexus was faster. There's more to owning an all-around great car than only speed.

[fusionchicken]

impressive lap time from the Lexus, was honestly expecting it to get completely destroyed.

automatic, iffy exterior, insane curb weight...m3/4 all day every day for me. A great sounding v8 can't save a car with as many shortcomings as the RC-F.

note: "shortcomings" such as being automatic is obviously a personal opinion. flamesuit on regardless. pls respond.

[btbossman]

That lexus is wiggity wack...I wont even say anything about the M4 besides its hands down the best drivers car in the category...past and present no doubt

[irablumberg]

C.A.F.E. (corporate average fuel economy) rules in the US (and I believe similar rules in the EU) are the reason that BMW and Mercedes can't make and sell cars with big NA V8s in any volume any longer.

CAFE is calculated as the average EPA mileage rating for the total cars sold in a given year for a company (not a brand). Thus, Lexus gets to average its mileage with all the sh*tbox Toyota Prius and other economy cars sold by Toyota. BMW and Mercedes have no similar high volume high mileage cars to offset low mileage big V8s. Therefore, they have to sell more efficient high performance engines.

I am amazed that my M4 gets 22 MPG on my normal commute. My wife has a C63 with that sweet 6.2l V8. When I drive it (same aggressive way I drive my M4) I am lucky to get 16 MPG on the same commute. Based on this, BMW is getting more than 30% better mileage with equal or better performance. That will be increasingly important as the CAFE requirements ratchet up over the next 5 and 10 years.

I am curious about the mileage rating on the upcoming C63 4.0l TT V8. I doubt it will come close to the M4, but it will be fast.

[Blindside_137]

My take on the video.

The RC-F doesn't even sound that great for an NA V8 and is 7k redline really something to brag about?

Most importantly, look at the mannerisms of the driver during his review of the Lexus compared to the BMW. The M4 makes him giggle like a little kid, which is why anyone gets a performance car IMO, to have fun. He also states the M4 is addictive. Another shining trait to have in a performance car.

To me the M4 is the much more fun car, better looking, and surprisingly I think it sounds better than the Lexus (and I am not even a fan of the M4 exhaust.) But as previously stated the Lexus sounds like a motorcycle.

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

My take on the video.

The RC-F doesn't even sound that great for an NA V8 and is 7k redline really something to brag about?

Most importantly, look at the mannerisms of the driver during his review of the Lexus compared to the BMW. The M4 makes him giggle like a little kid, which is why anyone gets a performance car IMO, to have fun. He also states the M4 is addictive. Another shining trait to have in a performance car.

To me the M4 is the much more fun car, better looking, and surprisingly I think it sounds better than the Lexus (and I am not even a fan of the M4 exhaust.) But as previously stated the Lexus sounds like a motorcycle.

+1 I don't think the Lexus V8 sounds all that good....sounds like a run of the mill V8 to me....no comparison to the E92 S65 or AMGs. As much as I wanted to love the new RC the styling is too much for me.

I've seen a blue one so far in person and the back is decent but that front and overall proportions are not pleasing to the eye. The stock wheel choice is also another weak point. I am not surprised that the RC-F is easy to drive but I figured the M3 would handle better.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by VCP

Bye bye PSS's and problem solved.

Exactly. The M4 was clearly held back by its tires. I'm looking forward to seeing those times drop significantly when BMW puts put a competition pack with bigger rubber.

[mPlasticDesign]

The M4 is a great car but I know many in "my camp"(40+yo) that have made the journey with every ///M car since early 90's that are moving on. Next car is either Porsche or this Lexus. It's too bad, because if BMW just put the E92 M3 GTS engine in the M4 I would busted a nut over that car....

[N54B30A]

Originally Posted by V1.47fan

On street tires you have to be constantly on the edge of grip to turn in good times...
Can you list for us your racing accomplishments even on the grassroot level? Hahahaha

Last i checked I'm driving a car with a pretty similar behaving engine. When i first started tracking it the car got sideways everywhere so i learned to adapt to the car. Racing accomplishments don't mean everything, either way that was the drivers first or one of his first times driving the car so i don't blame him for not adapting to the cars behavior. Yeah you're constantly on the edge of grip and the trick is to not cross that edge which clearly pobst did numerous times.

[ASAP]

If the Lexus wasn't as ugly as it is, weighed 500 lbs less and was stiffer... u'd have one hell of a car.

[motex]

I think the RCF is going to be another failure like the ISF, at almost same price as the M4 without a the "pedigree" of a real sports car like all M's .......
How about the resale value?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by irablumberg

However, why is the performance of the RCF on the track greater than the sum of its parts, or conversely, why is the performance of the M4 on the track less than the sum of its parts?

Given the differences in individual performance metrics (straight line acceleration, braking, steady state cornering, figure 8 time and grip), the M4 should have finished several full seconds faster than the RCF on the road course.

On a road course, winning lap times (between similar cars) come from two things:

1) Carrying speed through corners
2) The ability to get on the power early out of the corner

The M4 didn't have the adaptive suspension, and appeared to really struggle with the uneven surface at Streets of Willow. To be fair to the M4, Streets of Willow is really uneven. You can tell by watching the in-car laps. The cars really get tossed around a lot. That type of track will always favor a softer suspension setup.

Originally Posted by ixse

Put a stig in there for both cars.. Bet the diff would've been more significant

I have my doubts. Whoever The Stig is, they're a great driver, but Randy Pobst is a great driver. More importantly, Randy is so consistent it's uncanny.

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Telling is when you see the side-by-side around the track. The Lexus is extremely smooth, with minimal steering correction while the M4 is constantly being corrected and man-handled. Someone like Randy can exploit the faster albeit clearly trickier to drive M4. In the straights the M4 clearly is faster but looks like Lexus makes up time in the corners. Given the weight differential I would have expected a much faster M4 time and this lends credence to the “smooth is fast” formula, especially for amateurs.

I absolutely love the way MT does the side-by-sides. You can really tell a lot about the difference in character between two cars when you watch them in this format. I listen with headphones because they split the audio in to left and right channels that correspond to the video as well. You can really hear the RCF get on the power earlier in the corners.

The lap times actually make sense when you consider how the cars are set up and the track they were on. For the fastest possible lap time, you want a tiny bit of neutral understeer. A chassis that oversteers freely is fun, but it prevents you from driving at the limit for extended periods of time. This is even more true when the track surface is uneven. It is simply not humanly possible to maintain a car like the M4 on the edge of control in conditions like Streets of Willow. That's not a knock against the M4 or the RCF, it's just an observation of the suspension setups and the side-by-side lap videos.

When it comes to the car you want to own and drive on a daily basis, enthusiasts long for oversteer because it's more fun.

[bradleyland]

Oh, and thank god Lieberman didn't do this video. Carlos Lago has such an even hand, and he's got respectable driving skills as well. I really like the way he and Randy work together.

[JeffM-Houston]

I know aesthetics are a personal thing, but I honestly don't understand how anyone could find the front end of the Lexus attractive in any way. It looks like they had a 13 year old design it for a transformer or something.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

I do not like the Lexus. It looks cheap... Like as if it is made of plastic. The complaint about the sound is rather funny because the RCF sounds like a motorcycle to me I suspect the true reason of hate on the F80 sound has nothing to do with the sound but the knowledge it isn't a V8.

its one of those if they did not know they would be praising it but since they do know they feel the need to hate it.

Dude, it sounds like a V8, not a motorcylce. that is some true haterade you are drinking. And looks cheap, ok.

What is disappointing to me, is the RC-F weight. If they could lower the weight, yet keep that glorious V8, it would be a beast. it's an amalgam of GS and IS chassis, instead of one chassis.

As was said before, it will have it's buyers, and yes that "Lexus reliability" is still a selling point. If that were a selling point with BMW, how many on here would sign that praise?

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by motex

I think the RCF is going to be another failure like the ISF, at almost same price as the M4 without a the "pedigree" of a real sports car like all M's .......
How about the resale value?

I actually liked the IS-F, still do. But the RC-F is a giant fail.