$70KF80 M3 or CPO 991?

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by tareemaa

F80 vs 991 base

F80 is going to give you a much more usable and higher power band in the lows and mids. Hell, I'd even go as far as saying it pulls pretty hard to redline. I took it down from 6th to 4th today and it went from 80 to 120 pretty damn fast. I am coming from an E90 M3 and while the engine was amazing, i had to rev the shit out of it to make it feel fast.

If the OP is a track rat, and he is actually going to take the car out to the track multiple times a year to feel the "higher limits" you refer to, then yes, he will feel it is the obvious choice. But for most of us on here, that use the car as a daily with very occasional track runs, the M3 shines.

The 991 is an awesome car, don't get me wrong, but the price point is getting kind of ridiculous. Most people buy it because they want a daily driver "exotic" and want the cache that comes with driving a Porsche. I'll drive past 10 today on my way home from the office as I drive through downtown Chicago. Most of which will be a base model with a likely automatic trans.

The OP has an M on order and I'd stick with it, not get into a used base model 991. Its very easy to fall into the hype when you read about cars on websites and forums. At the end of the day, you buy and drive what offers you the best experience in what you prioritize.

I also went from an E92 M3 to an F80 M3, and have been less than happy with the F80 M3. I've not driven a turbo BMW that I find thrilling or exciting and the F80 is no exception. Plus I cannot stand the lawnmower exhaust note, diesel sounding engine, and damn active sound helps to ruin it more.
I don't think it has nearly as strong a top end as a base 911 and not nearly a 991S, but those cars are meant to be revved. Very different engine characteristics.
I agree you will have a bit more low/mid than a 3.4 liter Carrera, but an 'S' model is plenty powerful, as its neck and neck with an F80 M3 despite a lot less horsepower/torque. The base is a little slower, 113 mph trap with a manual and around 114/115 with PDK, which by all means isn't slow at all.
On the track, the 911 of either variation will certainly be faster and only continue whereas the M3 does get hairy very quick, its brakes a bit soft and the tires overheat very quickly.

[tareemaa]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

I also went from an E92 M3 to an F80 M3, and have been less than happy with the F80 M3. I've not driven a turbo BMW that I find thrilling or exciting and the F80 is no exception. Plus I cannot stand the lawnmower exhaust note, diesel sounding engine, and damn active sound helps to ruin it more.
I don't think it has nearly as strong a top end as a base 911 and not nearly a 991S, but those cars are meant to be revved. Very different engine characteristics.
I agree you will have a bit more low/mid than a 3.4 liter Carrera, but an 'S' model is plenty powerful, as its neck and neck with an F80 M3 despite a lot less horsepower/torque. The base is a little slower, 113 mph trap with a manual and around 114/115 with PDK, which by all means isn't slow at all.
On the track, the 911 of either variation will certainly be faster and only continue whereas the M3 does get hairy very quick, its brakes a bit soft and the tires overheat very quickly.

Again, the OP isn't gonna be tracking so who cares about trap speeds and track times. On one side you have a very practical, capable, fast car that you can enjoy on a quick grocery run, on the other hand you have a car that will feel underwhelming most of the time unless you start driving it like you stole it. Different strokes for different folks, but if it was my money, it would be the M.

Exhaust note and active sound are relative as well. I think my car sounds pretty good with down pipes, open valves, and muted active sound. You had the MPE, I think that think sounds amazing.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by tareemaa

Again, the OP isn't gonna be tracking so who cares about trap speeds and track times. On one side you have a very practical, capable, fast car that you can enjoy on a quick grocery run, on the other hand you have a car that will feel underwhelming most of the time unless you start driving it like you stole it. Different strokes for different folks, but if it was my money, it would be the M.

Exhaust note and active sound are relative as well. I think my car sounds pretty good with down pipes, open valves, and muted active sound. You had the MPE, I think that think sounds amazing.

See this is where I disagree. Even without going to the track, where we agree the 911 is heads and shoulders better, I find that the 911 is as fun at 10 mph as it is 80/90/100 mph. It just has a connected feel, a tactile, natural tangible feeling that I can't think of a better way to describe than "pretty much perfect".
The M3 has to be full throttle and max boost for me to say "yes that's fun". Otherwise I find it mundane and truly lacks and sense of occasion (and all definition of the word feel) and doesn't feel at all special. I also think it was absurd I had to spend another 10k to get the car to look good and still only sounds at best OK with a $5,000 exhaust.

[ASAP]

I will say the only non suv porsche that i've driven in my life was a 6mt cayman... that was enough for me to say hell no...

The car can feel as balanced as a tightrope walker but as slow, torqueless and impractical as it was and as mundane as that engine sound was it was enogh for me to say hell no... the only option for me for the street woild be a turbo s and 180k is frankly absurd for that car.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

See this is where I disagree. Even without going to the track, where we agree the 911 is heads and shoulders better, I find that the 911 is as fun at 10 mph as it is 80/90/100 mph. It just has a connected feel, a tactile, natural tangible feeling that I can't think of a better way to describe than "pretty much perfect".
The M3 has to be full throttle and max boost for me to say "yes that's fun". Otherwise I find it mundane and truly lacks and sense of occasion (and all definition of the word feel) and doesn't feel at all special. I also think it was absurd I had to spend another 10k to get the car to look good and still only sounds at best OK with a $5,000 exhaust.

Too bad you don't like your M3. With allocations so tight maybe you can sell it easily and get a Porsche.

As you pointed, out M3 and 991S are neck and next.. similar performance and 50% less cost is an M3 win in my books

Swap out the PSS and brake pads if you are having issues at the track... I personally went into the purchase knowing this and I think your expectations are a bit off if you think street pads and PSS will work out at the track regardless of the model of the car

[BMdblU]

OP, from what Im hearing the M is the best car for your needs at this point in time. That aside, if you are getting a 911 make sure its an S.

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

See this is where I disagree. Even without going to the track, where we agree the 911 is heads and shoulders better, I find that the 911 is as fun at 10 mph as it is 80/90/100 mph. It just has a connected feel, a tactile, natural tangible feeling that I can't think of a better way to describe than "pretty much perfect".
The M3 has to be full throttle and max boost for me to say "yes that's fun". Otherwise I find it mundane and truly lacks and sense of occasion (and all definition of the word feel) and doesn't feel at all special. I also think it was absurd I had to spend another 10k to get the car to look good and still only sounds at best OK with a $5,000 exhaust.

Sounds like you should've used that additional 15k to get into a base 991

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Too bad you don't like your M3. With allocations so tight maybe you can sell it easily and get a Porsche.

As you pointed, out M3 and 991S are neck and next.. similar performance and 50% less cost is an M3 win in my books

Swap out the PSS and brake pads if you are having issues at the track... I personally went into the purchase knowing this (no secret PSS are not great track tires) and it is too bad you didn't figure all this out before buying

While they may be close in a straight, 400 hp 911 vs an M3 making close to 500 hp (no surprise there), the 911 'S' is much faster and much more capable on track. Even a Base Carrera will be faster on track as can be seen in a few different track comparisons.

I don't think I should have to change brake pads to go to the track. BMW should design brakes that don't overheat and get sloppy after multiple laps. Same can't be said of the 911, the brakes just perform and perform. PSS are great street tires, not a good track tire, so no issues there but I just don't like the very tail happy nature where the car is always looking to bite you. Going to R compounds only makes the breaking point less progressive and requires that much more to catch it.

End of the day, there are many reasons the 911 is priced higher. Straight line speed aside, there aren't comparable in their performance at all. And unless you're specifically talking a GT2/3/RS variants, the regular other 911s are GT cars, just extremely fast on track.

Originally Posted by BMdblU

OP, from what Im hearing the M is the best car for your needs at this point in time. That aside, if you are getting a 911 make sure its an S.



Sounds like you should've used that additional 15k to get into a base 991

For what my M3 was with the M performance parts, I could have bought a 991. I have not quite decided, but a 991 'S' with PDK/PSE/PASM sounds like THE car, though I would not rule out a base Carrera for the 991 as it's just so capable.

[georgere]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

And I think the 911 will hold value better in the 5-10 year time frame.

I doubt it will if it is a daily driver.
Most used P-cars on used market have very low mileage. Pple baby them then sell them to the next guy to baby the car.
You drive it daily and you will see dings, miles, and repair bills pile up and finishes (ext/int) diminishing. All this will bring the cost of the car down a lot.

What I would do.
If no kids, i'd get 911 given the situation (who cares about the resale value).

With family, I'd need another fancy family car which I cant afford. So I am sticking to M3 as my fun car and my family fancy car whereas second car in family is for utility (RAV4).

[shiftmechanism]

I view it as this....if you were driving a m3 and then a porsche 911 pulls up.. you would wish you were driving the 911.

Now imagine you were driving a 911 then a m3 pulls up.. you would be happy you are still driving a 911

Driving is a passion ... you are by yourself 90% of the time... treat yourself a little you deserve it.

[tareemaa]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

See this is where I disagree. Even without going to the track, where we agree the 911 is heads and shoulders better, I find that the 911 is as fun at 10 mph as it is 80/90/100 mph. It just has a connected feel, a tactile, natural tangible feeling that I can't think of a better way to describe than "pretty much perfect".
The M3 has to be full throttle and max boost for me to say "yes that's fun". Otherwise I find it mundane and truly lacks and sense of occasion (and all definition of the word feel) and doesn't feel at all special. I also think it was absurd I had to spend another 10k to get the car to look good and still only sounds at best OK with a $5,000 exhaust.

I don't think it's heads and shoulders better, no, not at all. I'm sure it's better, but again, that margin is not worth it in my books.

I think you drank enough of the p-car kool aid that you've become infatuated with the 991. Hopefully that wasn't the case when you were ordering the m3, when you put down 10k in cosmetics and full asking on the exhaust.

In my mind the M3 is the clear winner.

[attila]

I do daily drive a 991 GTS4 as the replacement of my e92M3. I did test drive the new M4 and had a base 991 for a day when my GT3RS was in the shop.
The new M4/M3 is faster then the base 991 C2. The M4 seemed just as fast as my GTS4 on the street. However the GTS has a better steering, better sound (especially above 6k), better manual trany and feels more planted. The M3/M4 are more practical by a significant margin. Still I can fit both kids (for a short school-home ride) into the GTS.
For a used 991 or new M3, I would go with the M3.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by tareemaa

I don't think it's heads and shoulders better, no, not at all. I'm sure it's better, but again, that margin is not worth it in my books.

I think you drank enough of the p-car kool aid that you've become infatuated with the 991. Hopefully that wasn't the case when you were ordering the m3, when you put down 10k in cosmetics and full asking on the exhaust.

In my mind the M3 is the clear winner.

Going by lap times times by professionals in testing environment, it certainly is head and shoulders better. Significantly faster times, which the margin is well worth it if on the track. On the street, one could easily say the margin of an M3 over a 320d or 335 isn't worth it so that's all relative to how you see it.
In the hands of you and I, I think you'll see those gaps or bigger for the 911 given its got much higher limits and much easier to drive than the M3 or M4.
I don't think it's infatuation, just the car is so good, it's damn near perfect. Can't say I've ever felt that way about many cases, but the 911 is.
Again, I value a driver's car first and foremost. A car that inspires confidence is very important as well. If I want pure speed, I have other things that will make any street car short of 918 or P1 seem slow.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by attila

I do daily drive a 991 GTS4 as the replacement of my e92M3. I did test drive the new M4 and had a base 991 for a day when my GT3RS was in the shop.
The new M4/M3 is faster then the base 991 C2. The M4 seemed just as fast as my GTS4 on the street. However the GTS has a better steering, better sound (especially above 6k), better manual trany and feels more planted. The M3/M4 are more practical by a significant margin. Still I can fit both kids (for a short school-home ride) into the GTS.
For a used 991 or new M3, I would go with the M3.

Pics of the GTS!!

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by CSanto

Pics of the GTS!!

I second that! One of the most beautiful cars on the road currently.

[CSanto]

Also Honestly if you arent doing the S then dont bother.

I paid 80k for my M3 and I got the ceramics. For 80 the only C2S I can find is a 2013 and has 20k miles.

I'll take the brand new car over the one that was used for 2 years and has 20k miles on it, but I'm weird like that.

[48Laws]

Originally Posted by attila

I do daily drive a 991 GTS4 as the replacement of my e92M3. I did test drive the new M4 and had a base 991 for a day when my GT3RS was in the shop.
The new M4/M3 is faster then the base 991 C2. The M4 seemed just as fast as my GTS4 on the street. However the GTS has a better steering, better sound (especially above 6k), better manual trany and feels more planted. The M3/M4 are more practical by a significant margin. Still I can fit both kids (for a short school-home ride) into the GTS.
For a used 991 or new M3, I would go with the M3.

I agree with your points however, the comparo between the M4 v 911 base, the P-car came out ahead, despite less horsepower.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by 48Laws

I agree with your points however, the comparo between the M4 v 911 base, the P-car came out ahead, despite less horsepower.

Yes, and also the same results at the Motown mile. Base 911 was almost 3.5 seconds a lap faster and M4 on a lap that is only a mile and under 1 minute per lap. That is an extremely big difference, especially when you take into consideration its a track built for power, and in that regard the M4 going by reality rather than claimed figures, has almost 150 more hp and at least that more in torque.

Granted, none of us here will be able to replicate those times, but the 911 is a much easier car to drive, it doesnt have the snap oversteer the M3 and M4 do. In my experience on track with both, the 911 will start fast and continue to put down consistently fast times, where the M car will wear down and struggle putting down consistent laps over the course of a session or day (brakes, tires, etc just are not capable of the repeated stuff the 911 is made for).

[attila]

Originally Posted by CSanto

Pics of the GTS!!

I started this thread when I got the car. Have some pics.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1103863

[attila]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

Yes, and also the same results at the Motown mile. Base 911 was almost 3.5 seconds a lap faster and M4 on a lap that is only a mile and under 1 minute per lap. That is an extremely big difference, especially when you take into consideration its a track built for power, and in that regard the M4 going by reality rather than claimed figures, has almost 150 more hp and at least that more in torque.

Granted, none of us here will be able to replicate those times, but the 911 is a much easier car to drive, it doesnt have the snap oversteer the M3 and M4 do. In my experience on track with both, the 911 will start fast and continue to put down consistently fast times, where the M car will wear down and struggle putting down consistent laps over the course of a session or day (brakes, tires, etc just are not capable of the repeated stuff the 911 is made for).

I think you expecting too much from the 911. I had just as many issues tracking the GT3RS than tracking the e92M3. Different issues, but issues quite annoying. PCCB was a huge annoyance for example. Original rear suspension is just not good on track. Toe setting changes under hard braking, making the car unstable. Then the issues with the LSD. (Porsche LSD's are bad jokes!) Speed (lap times) and having fun during a track day by the way not correlate very well in my experience. The GT3RS (997.2) still feels faster than the reg. 991 C2S or the GTS.
I just drove a 2013 F458 (trading in my RS) and the in gear acceleration (2 and 3) is not much better than the RS. - just for the F funboys!
Anyway, the new M4 felt quick enough as a DD. Have no experience with it at all as a track car nor with the GTS.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

While they may be close in a straight, 400 hp 911 vs an M3 making close to 500 hp (no surprise there), the 911 'S' is much faster and much more capable on track. Even a Base Carrera will be faster on track as can be seen in a few different track comparisons.

I don't think I should have to change brake pads to go to the track.

For what my M3 was with the M performance parts, I could have bought a 991. I have not quite decided, but a 991 'S' with PDK/PSE/PASM sounds like THE car, though I would not rule out a base Carrera for the 991 as it's just so capable.

F8X isn't tail happy. It has a lot of torque and good front axle grip, and driver needs to modulate the throttle appropriately

No sense in continuing the conversation though, since you seem pretty convinced you made the wrong choice in car, which is too bad.

You sound like that other member "revcrazy" (you might even be him with another user name). It's too bad you checked so many option boxes on your car. You probably should have gotten that 991 instead if you spent that much on an M3. Or really, get the GT4 for the same price. There look to be some allocations here and there and the wait lists are whittling down.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

F8X isn't tail happy. It has a lot of torque and good front axle grip, and driver needs to modulate the throttle appropriately

No sense in continuing the conversation though, since you seem pretty convinced you made the wrong choice in car, which is too bad.

You sound like that other member "revcrazy" (you might even be him with another user name). It's too bad you checked so many option boxes on your car. You probably should have gotten that 991 instead if you spent that much on an M3. Or really, get the GT4 for the same price. There look to be some allocations here and there and the wait lists are whittling down.

You've got it all pegged wrong. I like the car, I just don't love it. I am far from the first person that feels this way about it.
Objectively it's a better performing car...that's a given since I can't think of a performance car where performance didn't move forward from a previous generation.
Subjectively, it has a lot of things I wish were better...of course this can be said of many cars as well. But there's a few things that truly don't sit well with me.
I just have not found the car as enjoyable as I would have hoped.
As far as being tail happy, yes it is. It has good front grip (not great but better than other Ms), and not enough rear grip given the close to 500 hp and torque the car is putting out. I just wish it were a bit more planted without so much throttle snap oversteer. Would be nice to be able to get rid of the auto rev match in Sport mode too since Sport + the throttle is too short.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by attila

I think you expecting too much from the 911. I had just as many issues tracking the GT3RS than tracking the e92M3. Different issues, but issues quite annoying. PCCB was a huge annoyance for example. Original rear suspension is just not good on track. Toe setting changes under hard braking, making the car unstable. Then the issues with the LSD. (Porsche LSD's are bad jokes!) Speed (lap times) and having fun during a track day by the way not correlate very well in my experience. The GT3RS (997.2) still feels faster than the reg. 991 C2S or the GTS.
I just drove a 2013 F458 (trading in my RS) and the in gear acceleration (2 and 3) is not much better than the RS. - just for the F funboys!
Anyway, the new M4 felt quick enough as a DD. Have no experience with it at all as a track car nor with the GTS.

I think I am expecting just what it is.

As for a 458, that makes sense. Even the 458 Speciale is barely faster than a 2015 GT3 in trap speed despite having close to 30% more hp. The previous RS was a very fast car.