S55 vs. S65

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by paddy335

I do understand what you are trying to say. I also think you might be over-estimating how many people will actually tune the new engines.

It's one thing to speculate about potential power gains on a forum, and another altogether to actually do it. I think engine tuning will remain very niche on these cars until they trickle through into the post-warranty market, mainly because they will already be stonkingly quick and 99% of buyers won't be messing with their warranties.

No doubt there will be some wealthy modders and hp-queens who'll give it a go though.

ya i know. i really loved BMW M cars for years now.

there is just so many dramatic changes its hard for some to adjust. if you ask me its a lot easier for 335 owners than M3 owners. because the new M4 is more like a modded 335i than M3s we have had over the years. (engine wise). in fact i have read it also will sound similar to a 335i.

not to mention my mom just picked up a F30 335i. which i drive often. so i am not completely closed minded.

[secono330ci]

The s65 is NOT a weak motor.

[435iaffair]

Originally Posted by I am Earl

If we wanted horsepower and handling and pure 0-60 numbers, we'd go for Japanese, GTR is a good example for one. That car costs same as the M4 if not less and will destroy the M4 both 0-60 and around the track. What does that tell you?

Gotta get a used GT-R for similar price as an M4, perhaps that's what you meant

After watching the m3/m4 track videos I gotta say the S55 sounds like poop for an M car Really hope it's just the audio equipment or something. It was never going to sound as good as the s65 but I was hoping for it to sound better than what was presented in the video.

Now hopefully the throttle response won't be too far off otherwise it could make all the power in the world and still not be as exciting to drive as an E9xM IMHO, even if the E9xM is slower. Really hard to beat N/A throttle response and the V8 soundtrack.

[Robin_NL]

Anyway. I'm not mocking anything. It s just the way I read it. And I've been around here for some time, having had E90 335/E90M3 etc etc.

I just didn't like the S65 in the E90 M3 that much. Or don't I have the right to say that here?

Come to think of it, my best friend's dad had an F40 a few years ago...great Ferrari.

And yes I believe a 458 engine is a tad more exotic than the S65 in terms of fast throttle response, torque, sound, higher revving etc.

Please prove me wrong.

Cheers
Robin

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Anyway. I'm not mocking anything. It s just the way I read it. And I've been around here for some time, having had E90 335/E90M3 etc etc.

I just didn't like the S65 in the E90 M3 that much. Or don't I have the right to say that here?

Come to think of it, my best friend's dad had an F40 a few years ago...great Ferrari.

And yes I believe a 458 engine is a tad more exotic than the S65 in terms of fast throttle response, torque, sound, higher revving etc.

Please prove me wrong.

Cheers
Robin

no one is saying the S65 is a exotic engine. more so that the S65 is KIND OF like a exotic engine. being high revs, individual cylinder throttle body, 8400RPM red line ect.

doesn't hold a candle to a 458!

and ya we can disagree on engines. its no big deal, its all just car talk.

for me sound is a very very good important thing when it comes to a engine. some people dont care about sound rather making big power. etc....

its all good

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by solstice

My rating at this stage before having driven the F80.

E90 M3:
s65:
F80:
S55:

+10 - Nice Rating !!!

My:
E90 M3:
s65:
F80:
S55:

If the M-GmbH would have really balls (against the BMW AG) ... they would bring an new limited edition (65 Cars?) F80 M3 CRT with an lightly modified 4.0ltr.S65 V8 with ~440PS(hp) and ~435Nm priced at ~99.000 € and build/sold between the M3 official debut in Detroit the M3 dealership debut.

With the lightweight CRT seats, an lightweight akra titan exhaust and eventually carbon bonnet and trunk this car would reach despite the M-DCT an DIN weight of below 1.500kg and would be the "ultimate M3 (CSL)" and the real worthy last NA M car !!!

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Swamp, the S65 is weak relative to other M motors BMW has produced, and the N54 as well. The S54 and N54 have been proven to make 700+ whp reliably. A 600 whp S65 appears to be a time bomb. Yes, I see them...but I also see them blow up. A 700 whp stock S65 would maybe last for a single pull. There has yet to be a single engine failure with a a single turbo powered N54 over 600 whp and obviously the E46 M3s are well documented in their power-making abilities.

You S65 guys might as well start getting it out of your systems, but the F8X M3 is going to decimate any performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set, just like the E46 and E36 platforms did as well. Mark my words. An inline 6 architecture with an overbuilt engine and drivetrain is the perfect platform for making as much power as you want. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can use it for crow-eating purposes down the road

what percentage of owners care about taking a cushy luxury / sporty car that really is made for DD'ing with some track use to 1000008498465 HP? this characteristic is basically irrelevant. there are so many better cars for big HP builds other than these.

quite honestly, even if you were right that certain M cars can make 800HP more easily than others, who cares? the 50 total people ever who may try to make that kind of power?

I also like turbo cars and think the f80 m3 is going to be great, but not for any of the reasons you mention here. I could care less about how easy it is to make massive power. where are you going to use it? and how streetable will the car be?

EDIT : and are you really talking about HPF m3's being reliable? The ones on standalone ECUs built by the company who is now out of business? That's really not a streetable car anymore and has a totally built engine.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Yeah, that's just not true. BMW tuning has been around for a LONG time with companies whose major focus is tuning BMWs (Turner, Bav Auto, Dinan). They wouldn't have existed for as long as they have if you were correct.

The majority of the people who buy an M3/4 will probably never do anything to the engine (I know I won't).

So to say that the new tuneability of the F8X is a major selling point is an over generalization. Especially since it's all conjecture and guesses on what a simple tune can get out of the S55.

A flash doesn't get much more power out of an NA motor. But the aftermarket scene has been pretty big in BMW for a while now.

I think you are the only person who gets it in this entire thread

[Robin_NL]

LOL @ Kenny &

My car isn't tuned either, the N55 midpipe is dealer approved/under warranty. It's fast as hell anytime of the day in any circumstance

When I had my E90 M3 for a month I desperately wanted to trade it for a C63...,
I remember driving a 997.1 S (355PS) , a very smooth and relatively torquey engine compared to the S65...A 3.6 B6...Just a NA6...Übermotor compared to the S65 imo....


Cheers
Robin

[Jockey]

The only engine mod I've done to my 135 is the BMW PPK1 flash. That's it. I don't even need that much power on the street. Hell, on the track, I don't need that much power. I'm not a good enough driver, that's what I need to fix first.

Suspension, brakes, tires, yeah, I changed all of those because that's where I felt the 135 was lacking.

Do I really think the M3 is going to be lacking anything? Not really. I sure as hell won't need more power and I definitely wouldn't know what to do with that extra power if I had it anyways.


Again, IMO, just because the F8X is FI doesn't mean more people are going to flock to the car because of the ability to tune it.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Jockey

The only engine mod I've done to my 135 is the BMW PPK1 flash. That's it. I don't even need that much power on the street. Hell, on the track, I don't need that much power. I'm not a good enough driver, that's what I need to fix first.

Suspension, brakes, tires, yeah, I changed all of those because that's where I felt the 135 was lacking.

Do I really think the M3 is going to be lacking anything? Not really. I sure as hell won't need more power and I definitely wouldn't know what to do with that extra power if I had it anyways.


Again, IMO, just because the F8X is FI doesn't mean more people are going to flock to the car because of the ability to tune it.

Agreed. I have no intention of tuning this car. Nor would most buyers, I suspect.

I have owned tuned cars before, but somehow doubt that I will need to with this one.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

what percentage of owners care about taking a cushy luxury / sporty car that really is made for DD'ing with some track use to 1000008498465 HP? this characteristic is basically irrelevant. there are so many better cars for big HP builds other than these.

quite honestly, even if you were right that certain M cars can make 800HP more easily than others, who cares? the 50 total people ever who may try to make that kind of power?

I also like turbo cars and think the f80 m3 is going to be great, but not for any of the reasons you mention here. I could care less about how easy it is to make massive power. where are you going to use it? and how streetable will the car be?

EDIT : and are you really talking about HPF m3's being reliable? The ones on standalone ECUs built by the company who is now out of business? That's really not a streetable car anymore and has a totally built engine.

i feel way better when people like you post. my whole thing about M cars is how great they car. not how much can i get with a tune!

[MisterEm]

Originally Posted by Ezio

no one is saying the S65 is a exotic engine. more so that the S65 is KIND OF like a exotic engine. being high revs, individual cylinder throttle body, 8400RPM red line ect.

doesn't hold a candle to a 458!

and ya we can disagree on engines. its no big deal, its all just car talk.

for me sound is a very very good important thing when it comes to a engine. some people dont care about sound rather making big power. etc....

its all good

It is clear you are not a fan of the motor, and especially the sound.

It is also clear you think the S65 is the greatest M motor of all time and shall never be eclipsed.

It is also clear that the S55 powered M3 will not be in your garage in the near future.

What is not clear is why you insert this repetitive opinion and interesting comparisons (e.g. Ferrari exhaust note and your S65 M3) into every F80 M3 thread?

At least Swamp and Boss330 add some data and relevant experience to the discussion.

It is awful tiresome when one sneaks on the forum to read about the new M3 only to find Ezio filling up every new F80/82 thread with more S65 exhaust note comparisons...

Can you come up with some new material please?

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by MisterEm

It is clear you are not a fan of the motor, and especially the sound.

It is also clear you think the S65 is the greatest M motor of all time and shall never be eclipsed.

It is also clear that the S55 powered M3 will not be in your garage in the near future.

What is not clear is why you insert this repetitive opinion and interesting comparisons (e.g. Ferrari exhaust note and your S65 M3) into every F80 M3 thread?

At least Swamp and Boss330 add some data and relevant experience to the discussion.

It is awful tiresome when one sneaks on the forum to read about the new M3 only to find Ezio filling up every new F80/82 thread with more S65 exhaust note comparisons...

Can you come up with some new material please?

listen i post a few comments. and people keep quoting me, so i respond.

my whole thing is that i want to make sure everyone knows why BMW went with a S55 engine. i want to make it clear. because you have to many people coming thinking BMW went with a S55 because its "better" . when i know BMW would rather be making what they have made for years in M cars. if we can come to a agreement on that i would stop posting. the engine is to cost cut and get better MPG. ok? are we good?

with that said. there is a possibility i would get a M4. It depends on what the competition is going to make . if they are all going to put out small displacement 6 banger turbos. then i will have to get over this shit.

i love M cars. i really hope everything i say is wrong. i hope this car is going to sound really good and give a special feel to it. i like the price point of M cars also.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Ezio

my whole thing is that i want to make sure everyone knows why BMW went with a S55 engine. i want to make it clear. because you have to many people coming thinking BMW went with a S55 because its "better" . when i know BMW would rather be making what they have made for years in M cars. if we can come to a agreement on that i would stop posting. the engine is to cost cut and get better MPG. ok? are we good?
.

I think this is presumptuous. The S55 has better power delivery with less weight, more efficiency, and lower emissions. One of the core complaints of the S65 was it's quite soft low-end power delivery; the S55 addresses that and thus will likely sell more. It can be built at the same plant as the N55. It's design is a better balanced engine than the S65 in terms of engine harmonics and BMW is famous for inline sixes, so they can play that up. By all accounts thus far, the S55 is a better engine and may ALSO allow BMW to cut costs in the process which might go to more profit OR might go to other things like weight savings. Or both.

Your subjective opinion, which is perfectly fine, is that the s65 sounds better (though that's based upon sound clips) and that the s65 appears to be more special, though you haven't driven an s55 yet.

I just want to point out how this plays out when reading your forum. Your posts have been quite repeatedly putting the s65 and s55 on the balancing scales and weighing heavily towards the s65. The s55 is a better engine on paper; however, you weigh emotion more heavily - understandable.

However, without driving or experiencing the s55 in person you have declared it to sound worse and not be as special.

Let's just be clear here.

[solstice]

iMO, as long as it's comments about cars and not persons everything is game and make for conversation. There are people here expressing that the S65 is a gutless POS or that it sounds like a lazy American muscle car and doesn't belong in an M car. There are others who love all high rpm NA engines and some that only like 8 cylinders or more.

There aren't many if any cars like M cars so when something you love about them changes it's natural to express concerns and disappointment. Where better to do it than on a BMW M forum?

What I don't like is when it's get personal with name calling or attempts to discredit a person instead of counter argue his/her statements.

[solstice]

I also find value in knowing so clearly where someone as Ezio or swamp stands on the S65. They love it like I do which means I will pay closer attention to their comments on the new car if they happen to drive it before me. Likewise I will pay less attention to reviews from for example Robin_NL and Boss330 since they aren't big fans of the S65 and are less likely to appreciate the same things I do about cars.

[jayzF30]

That V8 is and will remain special for many reasons. It cannot be compared to an engine built for forced induction as it is naturally aspirated and is just different. An NA V8 engine will always, always, sound better than any 6 cylinder engine. The S65 is truly one of the best sounding motors. However, if you go to the V10s or V12s the S65 will not be as special sounding either. The engine wasn't built for high torque delivery. It was built for high RPM power. S55 is built for forced induction from the factory, has less displacement which is compensated through forced induction, will never sound as good as an S65 but will most definitely make vast amounts of power once even slightly tuned. This is a given.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

my whole thing is that i want to make sure everyone knows why BMW went with a S55 engine. i want to make it clear. because you have to many people coming thinking BMW went with a S55 because its "better" . when i know BMW would rather be making what they have made for years in M cars.

This is reeking of insecurity on your part.

You just want to make sure that everyone understands that the S55 is inferior to the S65 and that BMW is cutting corners and compromising because that is exactly what you're saying. Ok, great. A lot of folks here do not share that opinion yet you continuously say it in nearly every thread you poke your head into and it's getting tiresome.

If you can't understand why this sounds presumptuous coming from you, I don't know what to say.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I think this is presumptuous. The S55 has better power delivery with less weight, more efficiency, and lower emissions. One of the core complaints of the S65 was it's quite soft low-end power delivery; the S55 addresses that and thus will likely sell more. It can be built at the same plant as the N55. It's design is a better balanced engine than the S65 in terms of engine harmonics and BMW is famous for inline sixes, so they can play that up. By all accounts thus far, the S55 is a better engine and may ALSO allow BMW to cut costs in the process which might go to more profit OR might go to other things like weight savings. Or both.

Your subjective opinion, which is perfectly fine, is that the s65 sounds better (though that's based upon sound clips) and that the s65 appears to be more special, though you haven't driven an s55 yet.

I just want to point out how this plays out when reading your forum. Your posts have been quite repeatedly putting the s65 and s55 on the balancing scales and weighing heavily towards the s65. The s55 is a better engine on paper; however, you weigh emotion more heavily - understandable.

However, without driving or experiencing the s55 in person you have declared it to sound worse and not be as special.

Let's just be clear here.

you said things that were spot on.

the S65 is a older motor and the S55 is way newer. if BMW would have tryed a rework on the S65. i am telling you they could have improved the engine. BUT the fuel efficiency would most likely not be as good as the S55. also not to mention the rework would cost more money. i wouldn't call the new motor better, i would call it more practical for both customers and BMW. i think thats fair to say

like i said in my post. i could still get a M4! what i predict is the car being much faster. but lacking in sound. Its kind of like a someone who owns a V12 Lamborghini looking into buying a GTR. the GTR feels great and makes a ton of power. but it is missing the scream from the engine that puts goose bumps down your back. (emotion)

i will be testing driving a M4 next year no doubt. i will give it a chance.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Jockey

This is reeking of insecurity on your part.

You just want to make sure that everyone understands that the S55 is inferior to the S65 and that BMW is cutting corners and compromising because that is exactly what you're saying. Ok, great. A lot of folks here do not share that opinion yet you continuously say it in nearly every thread you poke your head into and it's getting tiresome.

If you can't understand why this sounds presumptuous coming from you, I don't know what to say.

its not a inferior engine. its what the engine stands for is what i dislike. what i said about the cut costing is far from a opinion its a simple fact BTW.

the sound of the engine is more of a opinion based thing. but the way the engine is made is purely fact based.

maybe its BMW fault for ever making a S65 and S85. spoiling us

[Jockey]

Earl, really, you think the F8X is just an upgrade to the E9X? The F is not a LCI upgrade to the E series, it's a generational leap forward.

Yeah, all the specs and new improvements/innovations would support that.