S55 vs. S65

Jockey · 12-16-2013, 06:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Ezio

its not a inferior engine. its what the engine stands for is what i dislike. what i said about the cut costing is far from a opinion its a simple fact BTW.

maybe its BMW fault for ever making a S65 and S85. spoiling us

Again, not everyone thinks the S65 was the epitome of M engine manufacturing.

No one is disagreeing that the S55 is partly a result of saving cost. As for the engine being "cheaper", that's been debated in another thread and when you throw in all the ancillary costs associated with it, it's probably close in cost to a S65.

The fact that you feel it's your "need" to make sure everyone understands that the S55 is result of compromise, is again, showing insecurity on your part.

Ezio · 12-16-2013, 06:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Jockey

Again, not everyone thinks the S65 was the epitome of M engine manufacturing.

The fact that you feel it's your "need" to make sure everyone understands that the S55 is result of compromise, is again, showing insecurity on your part.

I see where you get that view from. haha.

the problem with me is that i am not a BMW enthusiast i am a car enthusiast. there are a lot of BMW guys around here. who think anything BMW is gold. i got a E92 M3 because the engine was 80% the reason.

Jockey · 12-16-2013, 07:20 PM

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Originally Posted by I am Earl

This time around they have really dropped the ball.

Yeah, most people here don't feel that way. Pretty much everyone agrees that the F8X is going to be a much better handling M3 then previous generations. Now, the engine, that's all subjective honestly on whether it's "better" based on what people use as factors to base their opinion upon.

Most of what you mentioned would be considered electronic "toys". And BMW wasn't the first or sole manufacturer to release most of those items into their cars.

Face it, the F8X is a new chassis that is stiffer, lighter, and has features the E9X doesn't.

It is a generational leap forward. All those electronic gadgets you talk about only improve upon a well-designed car. They don't make the car.

And the fact that you can't hide your disdain for this car highlights your bias.

Needsdecaf · 12-16-2013, 07:43 PM

I'm sorry, but this thread is now beyond pointless. It all reeks of "my dad can beat up your dad", quite frankly.

signes · 12-16-2013, 07:46 PM

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Originally Posted by I am Earl

Compared to E46 to E9X, a lot of the changes are "easy" upgrades. You should have watched the M3 videos made 5-6 years ago and pay close attention to the engine design. A lot of the features were "first" timers for E90. EDC, DSC, MDM, Dual Clutch Transmission, and M mode integration with iDrive (not to mention iDrive and Navigation itself).

Now let's take a look at F80. DCT? We already had one. Aside from the torque spec, I don't see any changes. I wouldn't call the 2nd/3rd gen an improvement over the 1st gen, it's merely a requirement for the new turbo engine. EDC? Yep it was there, just tuned. MDM? Yep, it was there as well, just a software tune. DSC? Yep. Am I missing anything? Yep the brakes, yeah I'll give you that the carbon ceramic brakes are cool, who is going to order them for 9.5k though? If you want to spend 10k on brakes, you can go crazy with brembo and it will be more than enough.

All the "improvements" the new car claims over the old one are "tweaks". Carbon fiber crankshaft, carbon fiber trunk, carbon fiber engine bay rod, carbon fiber this carbon fiber that. There is nothing revolutionary about the new car. When E9X came out, people's jaw dropped. Every single feature I mentioned above were never offered in any M car before not to mention any other competitor's car. Just go back to 2007 for a second and imagine the impact these features created. Fast forward to 2013, do you feel the same way? I certainly don't and many people agree (rightfully so). They had to do significant R&D on these features and invent them from scratch. Customizing an existing engine by improving the turbos is one thing, designing a brand new engine with a different bore and stroke and an entirely new spec is another. Taking an existing part and making it in carbon fiber and calling it weight reduction is also not that exciting.

So compared to those changes they released in E9X, what they are coming up with this time does feel like an "upgrade".

This time around they have really dropped the ball. The M5 was one thing and we all watched the car get bad reviews time after time, but now the M3? It feels really sad.

Not even sure where to start will all of this... Most of the things you mention above as being "ground breaking" for the E9x are software - DSC, MDM, M-mode (same thing as MDM) integrated with iDrive (not even sure what that means.) Big deal, some programming tweaks and DSC was not new at all. DCT was a new transmission but nothing particularly revolutionary in the industry, not to mention all the issues it had upon release. (Disclaimer - I actually prefer SMG) EDC - again, nothing new at all and more of a luxury feature to help soften the car compared to the E46 while still being able to dial in some stiffness when wanted. The S65 was the biggest accomplishment by far with the E9x and that was a product of the development of the S85.

As for your references to the F10 M5 reviews, how can you possibly suggest that will have any influence on or reflect in any way on reviews that will be done ~6 months from now? Are you that depressed about the new M3/4?

A418t81 · 12-16-2013, 09:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Ezio

couple things i wanna touch here with you.

first of all. there is nothing like taking a high revving motor with a exhaust through the gears while listening to the engine just scream. ever driven a Ferrari before ? go drive one and get back into your modded 335i with a I6 engine. you will find the car lacks in sound and special feel. i think you shouldn't just brush off the S65 like you do. there is still something special there. as a guy who loves the S65, i can still respect modded M4s and 335is for the power. and you should respect the S65 for the sound and high revving nature. both are "cool" in there own way.

honestly have you been around a lot of cars ? like at meets and stuff? do you find your 335i to be a really good sounding motor ? (honest question)

to me if i was going to mod. i would go grab a corvette. make more power cheaper. not to mention the sound.

Wow, my very own thread

Let's make something very clear: I really like the E9X M3. In fact, I love everything about it short the engine. I have tried to reason it out and basically force myself to buy one, but I just can't get over the relative lack of torque and performance that I'm expecting out of my daily driver. I do think the S65 is cool, but it just doesn't keep me interested in the long run. To me the seat of the pants performance is a let down. Granted, I am used to driving my 700+ hp GT-R, but the 335 with a few mods puts a lot more smiles on my face on the street than the M3 does. The track is a different animal all together, but the 335 and my new M3 are both going to be daily drivers that'll likely never see the track while the GT-R becomes the 1000+ hp race car.

Some of you guys may think that having a high revving V8 is like having a "cheap Ferrari" or maybe puts you closer to owning that dream exotic and I'm glad you like that, but if I wanted a Ferrari or Lambo, I'd get one (actually, I'd get a McLaren 12C, and still might). I prefer all out performance (with some respect to the dollar amount) than I do sound, or cache, etc. The S65 sounds glorious, but I find that gets old when it doesn't have the "bite" to back up the bark (relatively speaking.) Top end performance is ok, but the lack of mid and low range power really kind of sours the deal for me on regular roads. M3s feel more "special" as a whole than any 335 due to a lot of changes other than just the engine. The bushings transmit more road feel, etc. The 335 is boring in this regard, but I put up with it because I'm happy with the car otherwise.

I have been around, tuned, and raced high end performance cars my whole life.
I don't think my 335, or any BMW 6 cylinder is in the same league as the S65 aurally (few engines are, really), but that is of almost no concern for me. I didn't buy my 335 for sound. I bought it for its performance on the street, where it shines. 450+ ft/lbs of torque at the wheels at 3k rpm is quite entertaining. The S55 doesn't sound nearly as nice as the S65 either, but again it is a tradeoff that I have absolutely no problems making for the performance advantages.

My whole point when this got started was not to rag on the S65, but to say that the N54 is a very, very overbuilt engine for 300 hp. The rods, wrist pins, and ring lands are designed to take a LOT more power than 300 crank hp. The S55 will almost certainly be built with much, much higher quality, stronger parts than the N54, and should be good to power levels well above the established 700 whp (800+ crank hp) that the stock internals N54 powered vehicles are seeing now. Additionally, we already know what turbos the S55 has and while they aren't as large as say the Rob Beck setup available for the N54, they are substantially larger than the stock N54 turbos which have been pushed to nearly 500 wtq, and 450 whp themselves. Once the S55 mod scene has a little maturity, I think it'll be fairly straight forward to hit well above 500 hp/tq at the wheels on the stock turbos, but we shall see.

I'm sure a lot of you prev. gen M3 guys will disagree, and that's fine. I'll get off the S65's back to keep the peace. The F8X generation M3 finally fixed my reservations with the drivetrain that I've had and I'm very, very excited to get my car and see if it actually lives up to my admittedly lofty expectations

MisterEm · 12-17-2013, 02:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Ezio

listen i post a few comments. and people keep quoting me, so i respond.

my whole thing is that i want to make sure everyone knows why BMW went with a S55 engine. i want to make it clear. because you have to many people coming thinking BMW went with a S55 because its "better" . when i know BMW would rather be making what they have made for years in M cars. if we can come to a agreement on that i would stop posting. the engine is to cost cut and get better MPG. ok? are we good?

with that said. there is a possibility i would get a M4. It depends on what the competition is going to make . if they are all going to put out small displacement 6 banger turbos. then i will have to get over this shit.

i love M cars. i really hope everything i say is wrong. i hope this car is going to sound really good and give a special feel to it. i like the price point of M cars also.

Your points are valid Ezio. The redundancy however, is obnoxious.

You're not getting the F80. You need an N/A high-revving V8 in your life - as anyone coming to this forum for F80/82 info has read several dozen times.

mPlasticDesign · 12-17-2013, 02:58 PM

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