▀▄ eas | VTT "SplineLock" CrankHub Installation Overview for S55

[johnnyredgtr]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Same can be said on the other side. Until actual data is presented, it's all speculation with variables and rumors thrown in - forums are notorious for this. We'll wait to hear from VTT in the meantime.

I'm too very interest in what VTT had to say about this S55 sch

[Ilvez]

I was quite sad to read these two reports of slipped hubs as I had VTT splined hub in my virtual shopping cart, when one day I will get hang of an M4. Really liked the elegant design, straightforward installation and competitive price as well.

Lets hope VTT explains these incidents but it is a very difficult situation to be in at first glance. There is no middle-ground here - the hub either stays put or slips. Unless improper installation has caused the slip, which is again very unlikely.

Hats off to VTT team for coming out with innovative product and hopefully they will manage to improve the design for the future.

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Same can be said on the other side. Until actual data is presented, it's all speculation with variables and rumors thrown in - forums are notorious for this when immediate answers aren't available. We'll wait to hear from VTT in the meantime.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by cntzl

That's like someone saying "there are a ton of 600+ whp S55 cars running the stock hub problem-free". It doesn't mean it's fail-proof. VTT hub spinning on a 600whp S55 is very worrying IMO. I'd really like to hear what Chris@VargasTurboTech has to say on this.

We haven't heard anything about an S55 slipping.

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Same can be said on the other side. Until actual data is presented, it's all speculation with variables and rumors thrown in - forums are notorious for this when immediate answers aren't available. We'll wait to hear from VTT in the meantime.

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by johnnyredgtr

I'm too very interest in what VTT had to say about this S55 sch

Originally Posted by Ilvez

I was quite sad to read these two reports of slipped hubs as I had VTT splined hub in my virtual shopping cart, when one day I will get hang of an M4. Really liked the elegant design, straightforward installation and competitive price as well.

Lets hope VTT explains these incidents but it is a very difficult situation to be in at first glance. There is no middle-ground here - the hub either stays put or slips. Unless improper installation has caused the slip, which is again very unlikely.

Hats off to VTT team for coming out with innovative product and hopefully they will manage to improve the design for the future.

Guys, we don't have all the facts yet on Ghassan's drag car, we're working with them to figure out what happened. Again, I haven't heard any news of any S55 slipping.

During development with the spline lock install on our car, we believed we slipped the hub MULTIPLE times at the track on multiple occasions. Every time we got the car back to the shop and did some inspecting, the hub was indeed NOT slipped, and we had discovered other issues that had caused the problem. I'd get a text from Tony... "I think I slipped the hub, WTF" and then a day or two later "Good news, hub didn't spin, bad news, I broke XYZ". We have yet to see a single spline lock slip and have sold well over 150 of them now, I would say prob 50% installed, and our car is running one at over 900WHP.

We will of course work with Ghassan, see what happened, and go from there. We love seeing what he's doing and want him to succeed too! That said, let's also keep it real, we have not once, not twice, but three times driven to events close to 20 hours each way from us only to have something on the car break on the first pass. Welcome to #N54LIFE, or more generally speaking, racing. A race car doing race car things with an N54 at its heart. Issues can and will happen. This will not be the first time they break that car, and I'm pretty sure we're not done breaking ours.

Chris

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

We haven't heard anything about an S55 slipping.

Here's the post from another thread:

Originally Posted by gman_newyork

I can confirm that the spline lock solution can spin. 2015 F82 FBO, E85 tuned with methanol injection at the charge pipes. Making approximately 600whp and spun the crank hub 2 months after installation.

Not bashing the manufacturer of this fix just a general announcement that it can still spin.

gman_newyork, if you don't mind would you be able to elaborate on your post above again? In the other thread, you later added this was your friend's car but would appreciate if you could share any findings. Even though it does sound very worrying, I agree that having this discussion based on some sort of data would be much more meaningful.

[gman_newyork]

Originally Posted by cntzl

Here's the post from another thread:



gman_newyork, if you don't mind would you be able to elaborate on your post above again? In the other thread, you later added this was your friend's car but would appreciate if you could share any findings. Even though it does sound very worrying, I agree that having this discussion based on some sort of data would be much more meaningful.

Please see post:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...546386&page=11

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Guys, as has been stated many times... the CBC and the Spline Lock together are a complete solution that address the multiple causes of slipping the hub.

While having one solution is better than nothing, the complete and proper fix is to use both a spline lock and a CBC.

The Ghassan car did not use a CBC, and also used a damper we have found to be associated with very high vibrations (we ran one before on our shop N54... took it off as high rev vibes were enormous).

The reported other crank hub slip also did not have a CBC. With the crank bolt loose, you're going to have hub slip.

Again.... a complete solution is the best path forward. Spline Lock and a CBC together.

A few guys asked "why sell them separately?" Not everyone wants to do the install, and a CBC by itself will stop the bolt from vibrating loose. That "something" is better than nothing and the cost is minimal. Not to mention those that already bought a CBC and just want a spline lock. Again though.... really need them both to fully resolve the issue, which should be clear.

Chris

[Schultz28]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Guys, as has been stated many times... the CBC and the Spline Lock together are a complete solution that address the multiple causes of slipping the hub.

While having one solution is better than nothing, the complete and proper fix is to use both a spline lock and a CBC.

The Ghassan car did not use a CBC, and also used a damper we have found to be associated with very high vibrations (we ran one before on our shop N54... took it off as high rev vibes were enormous).

The reported other crank hub slip also did not have a CBC. With the crank bolt loose, you're going to have hub slip.

Again.... a complete solution is the best path forward. Spline Lock and a CBC together.

A few guys asked "why sell them separately?" Not everyone wants to do the install, and a CBC by itself will stop the bolt from vibrating loose. That "something" is better than nothing and the cost is minimal. Not to mention those that already bought a CBC and just want a spline lock. Again though.... really need them both to fully resolve the issue, which should be clear.

Chris

Chris, maybe you should make it so the crank hub can only be purchased as a kit with the CBC included. But, have the CBC also available separately.

Just a thought.

[cbrtrx]

I'm surprised how no one yet has brought up the supposed ability of the splinelock angled splines "digging" in and making it grip better under the potential of slip.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by cbrtrx

I'm surprised how no one yet has brought up the supposed ability of the splinelock angled splines "digging" in and making it grip better under the potential of slip.

It's described in the 1st paragraph of the thread.

[qmp]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

It's described in the 1st paragraph of the thread.

I believe cbrtrx was referring to discussions on the merits of "supposed abilities" of the spline lock.

[cbrtrx]

Originally Posted by qmp

I believe cbrtrx was referring to discussions on the merits of "supposed abilities" of the spline lock.

Yes this is correct.

[Ilvez]

Chris and Tom, do you have a clue why N54 engine has crank hub central bolt final torque requirements of 360 degrees and S55 270 degrees? The central bolt appears to be the same:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...;q=11217614270

Why not torque S55 crank bolt as well extra 90 degrees, giving some additional assurance on top of CBC + splined hub (or for whatever hub in question)?

As far as I have read technical docs, Gintani requires 325ft/lbs on their keyed setup, which would be interesting to compare to OEM torque requirements.

Anyway, the takeaway so far seems that there are no reports of VTT Spline Lock + CBC combos slipping even on very highly tuned and abused S55 engines, which is very good news. As long as clients are seriously advised only to use VTT spline lock together with CBC

[M-Pilot]

What's more interesting to me is that there are no cases of failure in the presence of CBC (with or without the spline lock hub). Kinda makes me think that CBC is the key component here, even more so than the spline lock hub. Is there still a chance of slipping with just the CBC? Probably but I'm still concerned about the case of failure with both spline lock hub and the CBC installed. In that case, splines will leave a permanent damage on the crank and you probably cannot just go ahead and simply install another hub (splined or keyed). Again, I have bought the whole kit but at this point I'm more inclined towards installing the CBC only.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Ilvez

Chris and Tom, do you have a clue why N54 engine has crank hub central bolt final torque requirements of 360 degrees and S55 270 degrees? The central bolt appears to be the same:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=11217614270

Why not torque S55 crank bolt could as well extra 90 degrees, giving some additional assurance on top of CBC + splined hub (or for whatever hub in question)?

As far as I have read technical docs, Gintani requires 325ft/lbs on their keyed setup, which would be interesting to compare to OEM torque requirements.

Anyway, the takeaway so far seems that there are no reports of VTT Spline Lock + CBC combos slipping even on very highly tuned and abused S55 engines, which is very good news. As long as clients are seriously advised only to use VTT spline lock together with CBC

You bring up an interesting point, will look into this further. Gintani provides their own replacement crank bolt on their kit.

Originally Posted by cntzl

What's more interesting to me is that there are no cases of failure in the presence of CBC (with or without the spline lock hub). Kinda makes me think that CBC is the key component here, even more so than the spline lock hub. Is there still a chance of slipping with just the CBC? Probably but I'm still concerned about the case of failure with both spline lock hub and the CBC installed. In that case, splines will leave a permanent damage on the crank and you probably cannot just go ahead and simply install another hub (splined or keyed). Again, I have bought the whole kit but at this point I'm more inclined towards installing the CBC only.

VTT released the SpineLock/CBC on Nov 18, A ~4 month window is simply too short to base any facts on.

Installing the CBC without the SplineLock hub doesn't really put you in any safer territory. It's been recommended multiple times to install both pieces to eliminate any variables, rather than looking at a SCH in hindsight and wishing you did if your M2C is a keeper in the long run.

In the end, it's purely your decision, just don't become a statistic.

[MR RIZK]

Originally Posted by Ilvez

Chris and Tom, do you have a clue why N54 engine has crank hub central bolt final torque requirements of 360 degrees and S55 270 degrees? The central bolt appears to be the same

Only speculating but maybe the threads in the n54 crank can take a bit more torque even though they are both forged cranks. Or BMW found that at 360 stretch there were some cases that the threads were being deformed.

[Graves]

How much? Hate how I google it and can't find a price like I need a TS just to know.

[MakeMuricaGreat]

Just an FYI for those looking to pick up the kit... they have a sale going on for all S55 products, per their most recent Instagram post and other thread on the forum!

9.93% off with code 993VTTS55 .

[ebam4]

Hey guys I’ve been doing a lot of research I came across the newtis.info site and been cross referencing numbers I just wanted to make sure I was correct for the timing tools (ie camshaft alignment and flywheel locking tool) so the n55 tools are the same ones for the s55 is that correct. And if so does anyone have a good place to purchase them.

[elinstylez]

Any issues/failures for this yet? I'm contemplating getting the complete fix, can you PM me a price?

[ats101]

This is the best walkthrough I have seen. Thanks Tom, that is very kind of you.

I have a few technical questions about the installation process. I am from a small island (Isle of Man). There are no mechanics who have done a crankhub fix so I will attempt to do it. There are some concepts I need to get a grip of.



1. The example car in your walkthrough, is that manual or DCT? I ask because I think you need a different flywheel locking tool for manual compared to DCT? Is this correct? Which flywheel tool do I need for a DCT with engine remaining in the car?

2. You inserted the lock pin when you found TDC. Can I do it like this:

a. Begin process by finding top dead centre
b. Use flywheel locking tool to lock flywheel which in turn locks the crackshaft
c. Use cam timing tool to lock inlet and ehaust camshafts
d. Keep these tools in place for the whole duration of the process until engine is reassembled and centre bolt fully torques.

I don't understand why the lock pin was used and then the flywheel locking tool later?

3. Without remove the vanos assemblies, if I undo the chain tensioner, will this give me enough slack in the chain to remove the hub and install the VTT?



Thanks.

Ats.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by ats101

This is the best walkthrough I have seen. Thanks Tom, that is very kind of you.

I have a few technical questions about the installation process. I am from a small island (Isle of Man). There are no mechanics who have done a crankhub fix so I will attempt to do it. There are some concepts I need to get a grip of.



1. The example car in your walkthrough, is that manual or DCT? I ask because I think you need a different flywheel locking tool for manual compared to DCT? Is this correct? Which flywheel tool do I need for a DCT with engine remaining in the car?

2. You inserted the lock pin when you found TDC. Can I do it like this:

a. Begin process by finding top dead centre
b. Use flywheel locking tool to lock flywheel which in turn locks the crackshaft
c. Use cam timing tool to lock inlet and ehaust camshafts
d. Keep these tools in place for the whole duration of the process until engine is reassembled and centre bolt fully torques.

I don't understand why the lock pin was used and then the flywheel locking tool later?

3. Without remove the vanos assemblies, if I undo the chain tensioner, will this give me enough slack in the chain to remove the hub and install the VTT?

Thanks.

Ats.

BMW instructions for timing chain replacement can be seen here for comparison: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...aft/1VnXHVjmLs

TDC is a 2-step procedure. The lock pin is simply to locate TDC, while locking tool will keep the flywheel in place.

[guess2098]

Originally Posted by elinstylez

Any issues/failures for this yet? I'm contemplating getting the complete fix, can you PM me a price?

my car is ok. it is at EAS now install KRATOS turbo.