Blown motors CHECK IN

[StockM4]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Bud, it was like Rev 2 when one of my DIs went pissing. I knew sh!t could pop but my base map and rev 1 were like SOOOO awesome. Then logging rev 2 as I topped out 4th gear and shifted I heard BLAAAAAAAAAAAA (fuu-UUK!!!) It's Murphy's Law man…sh!t happens at the worst time. I didn't blame Paul and knew I was in the Pay-To-Play game.

So then why are other tuners saying it was tune related.
Another tuner also told me i was past the safe limits with being over 28psi

[StockM4]

Also i ask this, so if i had a motiv reflex would this have not happened…?
Im planning to do PI again so need to know.. unless there's a safer option on how to run FULL E85 on upgraded turbos without meth or pi

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by StockM4

So then why are other tuners saying it was tune related.
Another tuner also told me i was past the safe limits with being over 28psi

When these things happen other tuners don't want to spend any time on looking at your logs. If you say it's overboost then they will usually agree and go back to their own business, especially if they see you haven't done your homework. My extra hot tune race gets me 26 mid-gear with bumps near 28 on stock turbos & DI, and you run bigger turbos plus PI, so 28 doesn't sound overly high to me. Now being mid-gear at 33-34PSI (prolly with 40+ PSI peaks), that's a lot.

Here's how I learned to read logs, in case it helps you or others here.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1732327

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by StockM4

I just don't understand how the base map everything was fine i did multiple pulls on that map. And suddenly paul makes changes, sends me a revision and on the FIRST pull i do on that revision this happens.

First revision was less boost and you probably have a fuel-it stage w/e setup that isn't properly setup with a split sec aic controller?
- Fuel pressure was likely rising rate so it would've ramped up and caused the factory ekp to try and ramp down to control fuel pressure at target...then it would've ramped right back because there would be a drastic dip in fuel pressure (this likely would've happened several times and this is hard to even see in most logs due to logging frequency)
- The fuel-it fuelab regulators are pretty trash and don't regulate very well when compared to the PR stuff...not to mention pr stuff is half the cost. BUT regardless of this the base pressure needs to be setup properly to avoid the issue above.
- The port injection plate o-rings are consistently a point of failure during install...unsure if related to specific company/o-rings/design/etc... but an EOS manifold will always negate this issue.
- The bosch injectors aren't necessarily flow balanced like an Injector Dynamics ID1050X injector by example.
- The AIC controller is like trying to control your cars fueling with squirt gun built off windows 95 (playing minesweeper as a good analogy).

With a bump in one calibration...from your base cal which was fine to a single new calibration which was demanding more from your compromised setup; it's an unfortunate thing really. Both parties could've done more to prevent this issue but in this case the tuner seems to have provided all the services that they are required to and this looks like a hardware setup issue which is unfortunate for you because in this case you seem like you just wanted a fast car and shouldn't be expected to know everything there is to know about fuel delivery...it's a tough spot. So in a nutshell it broke, and now you fix it/sell it/etc... but I hope I've helped you identify some of the possible issues and things to look at so this can be avoided for you (or someone else) in the future.

[StockM4]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

First revision was less boost and you probably have a fuel-it stage w/e setup that isn't properly setup with a split sec aic controller?
- Fuel pressure was likely rising rate so it would've ramped up and caused the factory ekp to try and ramp down to control fuel pressure at target...then it would've ramped right back because there would be a drastic dip in fuel pressure (this likely would've happened several times and this is hard to even see in most logs due to logging frequency)
- The fuel-it fuelab regulators are pretty trash and don't regulate very well when compared to the PR stuff...not to mention pr stuff is half the cost. BUT regardless of this the base pressure needs to be setup properly to avoid the issue above.
- The port injection plate o-rings are consistently a point of failure during install...unsure if related to specific company/o-rings/design/etc... but an EOS manifold will always negate this issue.
- The bosch injectors aren't necessarily flow balanced like an Injector Dynamics ID1050X injector by example.
- The AIC controller is like trying to control your cars fueling with squirt gun built off windows 95 (playing minesweeper as a good analogy).

With a bump in one calibration...from your base cal which was fine to a single new calibration which was demanding more from your compromised setup; it's an unfortunate thing really. Both parties could've done more to prevent this issue but in this case the tuner seems to have provided all the services that they are required to and this looks like a hardware setup issue which is unfortunate for you because in this case you seem like you just wanted a fast car and shouldn't be expected to know everything there is to know about fuel delivery on one of these cars...it's a tough spot. So in a nutshell it broke, and now you fix it/sell it/etc... but I hope I've helped you identify some of the possible issues and things to look at so this can be avoided for you (or someone else) in the future.

I had BMP PI, with BMP Stage 3 pump with aic1 controller.
Car is gone already so im just gonna get another m4. So u think going with motiv reflex would be the 100% safest option if going pi again?

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by StockM4

I had BMP PI, with BMP Stage 3 pump with aic1 controller.
Car is gone already so im just gonna get another m4. So u think going with motiv reflex would be the 100% safest option if going pi again?

Ok yeah if you had BMP/PR then the regulator pressure was likely too high and/or the other issues possibly compounding it...could've even been a bad direct injector too that just so happened to go bad at the time of the new tune. Motiv Reflex 100% is a better option if you have a tuner who knows how to set that up. I always recommend Bend Calibration as he knows how to properly go through the Port Fuel issues as I mentioned above (this info above is from a few high power friends tuned by them and I saw Bend work through the proper setup with them.)

[FriedPiston]

Just by looking at your baseline map, you can already see something isn't right with the timing corrections in Cylinders 2, 4, 5

Peak ignition advance looks to be 16.5 * at high RPMs. Peak boost target also looks to be at 28 psi at high RPMs before tapering to 26.

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

Just by looking at your baseline map, you can already see something isn't right with the timing corrections in Cylinders 2, 4, 5

Peak ignition advance looks to be 16.5 * at high RPMs. Peak boost target also looks to be at 28 psi at high RPMs before tapering to 26.

Yup likely all that KR related to poor fueling.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Yup likely all that KR related to poor fueling.

Gotta flow test those PI injectors on a regular basis...

[StockM4]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

Gotta flow test those PI injectors on a regular basis...

Dont the injectors in the BMP kit come flow tested already…?

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by StockM4

Dont the injectors in the BMP kit come flow tested already…?

Pretty sure most are flow tested/flow matched, or at least that's what the vendors claim. I've yet to actually see an injector test sheet/card being sent with Bosch injectors.

However, your obligations to test the injectors on a regular basis doesn't end at the time you place an order; PI injectors aren't immune to failure after all.

Race car things = race car maintenance

[StockM4]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

Pretty sure most are flow tested/flow matched, or at least that's what the vendors claim. I've yet to actually see an injector test sheet/card being sent with Bosch injectors.

However, your obligations to test the injectors on a regular basis doesn't end at the time you place an order; PI injectors aren't immune to failure after all.

Race car things = race car maintenance

So whats the alternative to running full e85 with pi or meth on upgraded turbos. Pi sounds like a damn headache.

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by StockM4

Also i ask this, so if i had a motiv reflex would this have not happened…?
Im planning to do PI again so need to know.. unless there's a safer option on how to run FULL E85 on upgraded turbos without meth or pi

Originally Posted by StockM4

So whats the alternative to running full e85 with pi or meth on upgraded turbos. Pi sounds like a damn headache.

Sorry to hear about the engine and the problems your experiencing man; PI can be great, but from what I've read it can also be tricky to dial in properly given the addition of new variables as points of potential failure.

I was on the fence about going the PI route myself as I'm on upgraded turbos as well and wanted the option to go full E85. The route I eventually took was upgrading the stock injectors to EU5's while also upgrading the HPFP system through Bosch Engineering's fuel-cam lifter upgrade. This may be putting the cart in front of the horse as I'm scheduled for the E85 dyno tune next Tuesday, but in theory it should be safer as it runs entirely off of the stock DME (along with all its fail-safe protocols) as opposed to relying on an external source such as an AIC.

Either way you end up going man, I hope it all gets worked out for you.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by StockM4

So whats the alternative to running full e85 with pi or meth on upgraded turbos. Pi sounds like a damn headache.

Depends on your goal. Commanderwiggin made some good pointers in his previous posts. Do some research on what each one of those items mean, then you'll be able to have a better understanding of what's best for your situation.

To be clear, PI isn't the issue. It's just that when you add non-factory items in order to push almost double the power, additional upkeep and monitoring will be required in order to prolong the life of the engine.

Having a fully built engine also doesn't make your setup immune to failure. I've seen those blow, albeit at slightly higher power levels. There are a lot of factors that go into making power, and then there's making safe power that will last thousands of miles.

[NickPJT]

Originally Posted by StockM4

Base map

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=60e7...729b3e37a59c27


1ST REVISION

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=60ea...729b2e6bc2b6c1

First of all, I'm sorry that your car blew up and that really sucks bro, but it is part of the game.

Now, please don't modify your car especially to this extent if you can't handle the fact that it may blow up regardless of the tuner. I've seen stage 2 E85 S55's blow up with perfect-looking logs.. shit happens. Not everyone is going to have the same experience as all motors are different and all setups are different, especially, when you add a port injection system to the mix. Port injection is cool and all, but it comes with so many issues and risks that the tuner just can't control. Sure he can tell you the issues are there, but that's about it. It's really up to you to fix them, unfortunately, you did not have the chance. Just because someone's car last's for "years" on a setup like this doesn't mean yours will too, also, I find it hard to believe that many s55s would last for years on a setup like this regardless of the tuner.

Let's take a peek at your logs, I see in the base map that there was a very slight variance in the STFTs, although, this is not perfect it didn't look bad in your logs. In your 1st revision from Paul, I see that the variance increased quite a bit, note this is out of Paul's control and is entirely related to an issue arising with your port injection system which was already showing signs of happening, although it wasn't anything too out of this world on your 1st log also, I notice there is absolutely no knock detected in your first log, however, on the blown motor log it started to knock quite a bit which I imagine is from the failure starting to happen. at 28 psi and the timing you're running this is unlikely and Paul was most definitely not pushing your car too hard.. most people go up to 30 PSI on a setup like yours with a lot more ignition timing up top from what I've seen browsing the forums and reading friends logs for years.

Your turbos weren't working hard at all and your car wasn't making very much timing.. again not being pushed very hard at all. Based on your STFT variance being so large I'd say this failure is definitely related to that, however, I think you just got really unlucky with this setup as I can assure you that your car was not being pushed hard in this log.. trust me I've seen cars on your setup being pushed hard making a lot more timing and boost.

Also, I noticed that your timing was rather rough in these logs which could definitely be related to having sub-par E85 in the car which would also cause your STFT's to get even more out of line with the PI system.

I'm not quite sure why you were telling people you had 32 PSI on the 1st revision as that was most definitely not the case, in your logs I see high 27-s to mid 28 PSI max, and the 32 psi you saw was on the shift and put no load or stress on the turbos.

Also, of course, other tuners are going to say they see an issue with your logs regardless of if it's Paul's fault or not. They all want to make money, so take what they say with a grain of salt when it comes to blaming other tuners for things. I don't think there are many tuners out there with more experience regarding the S55 engine than F80Paul, and, he would've never sent you to an unsafe territory on the first revision.

Maybe next time before making a forum post completely frying a tuner you should learn how to read your logs and understand what went wrong with your car, also, please try and understand that stuff can go wrong when you modify a car before going onto a forum and putting someone's reputation on the line over something like this is ridiculous after reviewing your situation.

[Wanted_M]

All of us had to literally extract mod list from OP as he wasn't forthcoming from multiple post just casting blame.. Good info and feedback here, I'm even writing shit down lol.

[ghost.f82]

I personally run 16.5 degrees @ nearly 33 psi with no drama. When pushing these cars you need to know how to read the logs and have the proper kit.

In my case Fuel it stage 4, ID injectors and the reflex take care of the pi. I do wish Bm3 would integrate the reflex's ability to trigger limp.

Paul has been my tuner for years and I've had no problems. I do run a kill tune from him, but i explicitly asked him for it and new the risks.

[hellokitty]

Agreed!

I would highly recommend that people who are rather "novice" to modifying cars for horsepower stick with tried and true set ups and lay off the upgraded turbos, port injection and meth injection. The population that is interested in this level of power is minor, so the R&D budget that goes into these setups is limited. Just because a shop car can make 700-800 whp on a stock block doesn't mean the masses should be chasing after the same goals. Shops build these cars for credibility and see it as an investment for return of capital. Right now, the technology for integration of supplemental fueling has caught up, but it's not ready for the masses, yet. Everyone is basically a beta tester at this point.

It took me years on the N54 platform to understand the obsessed level of maintenance, reading of data logs, and troubleshooting to really appreciate the level of effort that goes into building a car that makes 150-200whp above factory reliably.

Stay safe and know your limits (including a having repair budget - no your 4 year warranty isn't going to cut it). Cut all of your maintenance intervals in half and track the hell out of it to make sure nothing gets overlooked. I have a maintenance spreadsheet for every car I have starting from 0 miles.

Is there is a problem with your car, STOP and fix it completely before driving it again.

I don't like to rant on forums, but if I can save one person from blowing up their engine, then it is worth it.

[M4Viper]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

First revision was less boost and you probably have a fuel-it stage w/e setup that isn't properly setup with a split sec aic controller?
- Fuel pressure was likely rising rate so it would've ramped up and caused the factory ekp to try and ramp down to control fuel pressure at target...then it would've ramped right back because there would be a drastic dip in fuel pressure (this likely would've happened several times and this is hard to even see in most logs due to logging frequency)
- The fuel-it fuelab regulators are pretty trash and don't regulate very well when compared to the PR stuff...not to mention pr stuff is half the cost. BUT regardless of this the base pressure needs to be setup properly to avoid the issue above.
- The port injection plate o-rings are consistently a point of failure during install...unsure if related to specific company/o-rings/design/etc... but an EOS manifold will always negate this issue.
- The bosch injectors aren't necessarily flow balanced like an Injector Dynamics ID1050X injector by example.
- The AIC controller is like trying to control your cars fueling with squirt gun built off windows 95 (playing minesweeper as a good analogy).

With a bump in one calibration...from your base cal which was fine to a single new calibration which was demanding more from your compromised setup; it's an unfortunate thing really. Both parties could've done more to prevent this issue but in this case the tuner seems to have provided all the services that they are required to and this looks like a hardware setup issue which is unfortunate for you because in this case you seem like you just wanted a fast car and shouldn't be expected to know everything there is to know about fuel delivery...it's a tough spot. So in a nutshell it broke, and now you fix it/sell it/etc... but I hope I've helped you identify some of the possible issues and things to look at so this can be avoided for you (or someone else) in the future.

Commanderwiggin
I’m in the process of changing the Fuel-It FPR.
Fuel-It stated to set the Fuel-Lab FPR to 65psi on idle.
What’s your advice to set FPR to?
TIA

[calicruisin]

Originally Posted by M4Viper

Commanderwiggin
I’m in the process of changing the Fuel-It FPR.
Fuel-It stated to set the Fuel-Lab FPR to 65psi on idle.
What’s your advice to set FPR to?
TIA

What calibrator are you working with ? Typically they will have you set it to a particular level.

Cheers

[davyent]

Originally Posted by lightfurym2c

First of all, I'm sorry that your car blew up and that really sucks bro, but it is part of the game.

Now, please don't modify your car especially to this extent if you can't handle the fact that it may blow up regardless of the tuner. I've seen stage 2 E85 S55's blow up with perfect-looking logs.. shit happens. Not everyone is going to have the same experience as all motors are different and all setups are different, especially, when you add a port injection system to the mix. Port injection is cool and all, but it comes with so many issues and risks that the tuner just can't control. Sure he can tell you the issues are there, but that's about it. It's really up to you to fix them, unfortunately, you did not have the chance. Just because someone's car last's for "years" on a setup like this doesn't mean yours will too, also, I find it hard to believe that many s55s would last for years on a setup like this regardless of the tuner.

Let's take a peek at your logs, I see in the base map that there was a very slight variance in the STFTs, although, this is not perfect it didn't look bad in your logs. In your 1st revision from Paul, I see that the variance increased quite a bit, note this is out of Paul's control and is entirely related to an issue arising with your port injection system which was already showing signs of happening, although it wasn't anything too out of this world on your 1st log also, I notice there is absolutely no knock detected in your first log, however, on the blown motor log it started to knock quite a bit which I imagine is from the failure starting to happen. at 28 psi and the timing you're running this is unlikely and Paul was most definitely not pushing your car too hard.. most people go up to 30 PSI on a setup like yours with a lot more ignition timing up top from what I've seen browsing the forums and reading friends logs for years.

Your turbos weren't working hard at all and your car wasn't making very much timing.. again not being pushed very hard at all. Based on your STFT variance being so large I'd say this failure is definitely related to that, however, I think you just got really unlucky with this setup as I can assure you that your car was not being pushed hard in this log.. trust me I've seen cars on your setup being pushed hard making a lot more timing and boost.

Also, I noticed that your timing was rather rough in these logs which could definitely be related to having sub-par E85 in the car which would also cause your STFT's to get even more out of line with the PI system.

I'm not quite sure why you were telling people you had 32 PSI on the 1st revision as that was most definitely not the case, in your logs I see high 27-s to mid 28 PSI max, and the 32 psi you saw was on the shift and put no load or stress on the turbos.

Also, of course, other tuners are going to say they see an issue with your logs regardless of if it's Paul's fault or not. They all want to make money, so take what they say with a grain of salt when it comes to blaming other tuners for things. I don't think there are many tuners out there with more experience regarding the S55 engine than F80Paul, and, he would've never sent you to an unsafe territory on the first revision.

Maybe next time before making a forum post completely frying a tuner you should learn how to read your logs and understand what went wrong with your car, also, please try and understand that stuff can go wrong when you modify a car before going onto a forum and putting someone's reputation on the line over something like this is ridiculous after reviewing your situation.

If the tuner gradually increased boost by 1-2 psi with each revision and over time, am sure he would have been able to detect the problem long before the boost got to 31 psi and the appropriate intervention would have been initiated. 31 psi from 26 psi was a big leap.