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      01-05-2020, 07:16 PM   #89
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Coming from a manual car and having only had a manual for my cars it was a change needless to say. My better half wanted to be able to drive it and gets stressed out with a manual especially if there are hills. I didn't think I would care for it despite the speed of the shifts but after some time with it I found it a real joy. It is some where between a manual and an automatic. In stop and go traffic it takes finesse to be smooth like a manual and when just cruising it is an automatic. When pushing the car it is nice having the ability to fire off shifts and your hands don't need to leave to steering wheel. It is not as "rewarding" I guess you can say but then again I find that lower powered lighter cars are more rewarding with a manual over heavy higher powered ones.
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      01-06-2020, 05:02 AM   #90
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I do, surprisingly. I was convinced I would get the 6MT. Drove one a few times and loved it, as I'd been driving autos for a few years. Then one day I decided to do one more test drive before pulling the trigger. Dealer didn't have any 6MTs on the lot, so I drove the DCT, and was pleasantly surprised. It's no PDK, but was much better than I had anticipated. My wife was bummed, as she was looking forward to driving stick again too, but otherwise, no regrets.
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      01-06-2020, 05:06 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropes View Post
Coming from a manual car and having only had a manual for my cars it was a change needless to say. My better half wanted to be able to drive it and gets stressed out with a manual especially if there are hills. I didn't think I would care for it despite the speed of the shifts but after some time with it I found it a real joy. It is some where between a manual and an automatic. In stop and go traffic it takes finesse to be smooth like a manual and when just cruising it is an automatic. When pushing the car it is nice having the ability to fire off shifts and your hands don't need to leave to steering wheel. It is not as "rewarding" I guess you can say but then again I find that lower powered lighter cars are more rewarding with a manual over heavy higher powered ones.
That last part +1. I really liked the 6MT, but when I drove the DCT, I was like, this is what the car was built for. It's too big and heavy imho to be a real blast with a stick in every day driving. Was still fun hitting those shifts, but having to do it all day every day in something that big I don't miss
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      01-06-2020, 07:55 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Thats doing apples to apples settings in apples and oranges cars and may not be an ideal way to compare the two. For engine breaking, your comparing an 8 speed to a 7 speed that are geared differently. In the ZF you may want to downshift two gears, which is fairly instantaneous since it doesn’t have to go sequentially like the dct, to get the same RPM range and engine breaking.

I’d play around a bit more with he settings (drivelogic 3) and gear choices to get a better feel for it before making a final determination. I would also hope that BMW tunes the settings to the G8x platform specifically based on the platform and whether it is awd like the X3M and M5 or rwd.

If not, welcome back to the MT camp?
FYI, DCT does not need to go "sequentially through gears". It can skip gears just like a standard MT can.

I test drove an M5C, while the the ZF 8AT is closing the gap significantly with a DCT performance whise, the drivetrain still feels more sluggish and less sharp and responsive.
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      01-06-2020, 11:59 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
FYI, DCT does not need to go "sequentially through gears". It can skip gears just like a standard MT can.

I test drove an M5C, while the the ZF 8AT is closing the gap significantly with a DCT performance whise, the drivetrain still feels more sluggish and less sharp and responsive.
Thanks for the correction - it seems that the info I watched conflated the need to disengage the clutch currently in use instead of jumping to the second clutch and associated lag with having to shift sequentially. Good to know..

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      01-06-2020, 02:09 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Thanks for the correction - it seems that the info I watched conflated the need to disengage the clutch currently in use instead of jumping to the second clutch and associated lag with having to shift sequentially. Good to know..
That is true that the clutch disengages, but you can from 7 to 1 in one step. It's not a sequential transmission like a motorcycle, it's more of an automated manual with 2 clutches.
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      01-06-2020, 02:42 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by superbrew View Post
That is true that the clutch disengages, but you can from 7 to 1 in one step. It's not a sequential transmission like a motorcycle, it's more of an automated manual with 2 clutches.
This is exactly what it is, with one clutch for even gears and one clutch for odd gears, able to select any gear instantaneously. If you are lugging along in a higher gear and you want to suddenly accelerate, you can floor the accelerator while simultaneously pulling on the left paddle. The DCT will automatically downshift to the lowest possible safe gear, without doing a "money shift". Just remember to upshift though, because the DCT will not automatically do that for you in Sequential mode and you will quickly hit the rev limiter.

Unfortunately, those who have never driven a DCT equate it to their experiences with a traditional torque converter automatic and the DCT is nothing like that. If is far closer to a manual transmission than a torque converter automatic.

People who say that they don't have to drive a DCT to know what it's like truly don't know what it's like.
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      01-06-2020, 04:21 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4 View Post
This is exactly what it is, with one clutch for even gears and one clutch for odd gears, able to select any gear instantaneously. If you are lugging along in a higher gear and you want to suddenly accelerate, you can floor the accelerator while simultaneously pulling on the left paddle. The DCT will automatically downshift to the lowest possible safe gear, without doing a "money shift". Just remember to upshift though, because the DCT will not automatically do that for you in Sequential mode and you will quickly hit the rev limiter.

Unfortunately, those who have never driven a DCT equate it to their experiences with a traditional torque converter automatic and the DCT is nothing like that. If is far closer to a manual transmission than a torque converter automatic.

People who say that they don't have to drive a DCT to know what it's like truly don't know what it's like.
what you're describing is the kickdown feature of the DCT. And there is speculation this leads to spun crankhubs.

Its better to step down gears one by one until you're in the right one. then apply throttle. Or if you're in a manual you can go 6th to 3rd with a rev match... and THEN apply throttle.

going from 1500 rpm to 5000rpm in a split second and hitting your trans with all that torque usually isn't a good thing.
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      01-06-2020, 04:56 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superbrew View Post
That is true that the clutch disengages, but you can from 7 to 1 in one step. It's not a sequential transmission like a motorcycle, it's more of an automated manual with 2 clutches.
It is more like two automated manuals, one with the odd gears and the other with the even gears.
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      01-06-2020, 05:01 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
what you're describing is the kickdown feature of the DCT. And there is speculation this leads to spun crankhubs.

Its better to step down gears one by one until you're in the right one. then apply throttle. Or if you're in a manual you can go 6th to 3rd with a rev match... and THEN apply throttle.

going from 1500 rpm to 5000rpm in a split second and hitting your trans with all that torque usually isn't a good thing.
Not so.

It is also possible to do a skip gear downshift by simply clicking the downshift paddle in rapid succession. The DCT does a nice rev matched downshift directly to the selected gear. If this causes a spun crank hub, then so would revving the engine in neutral.
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      01-06-2020, 05:05 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Thanks for the correction - it seems that the info I watched conflated the need to disengage the clutch currently in use instead of jumping to the second clutch and associated lag with having to shift sequentially. Good to know..
When doing a rev matched downshift, there is always a lag, even on planetary automatic. The lag results from the time it takes for the engaged clutch to open, rev up the engine with the throttle and engage the required clutch. It does not matter if the second clutch is the same as the first because it takes more time to rev up the engine than it takes to change gears.
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      01-06-2020, 05:25 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Not so.

It is also possible to do a skip gear downshift by simply clicking the downshift paddle in rapid succession. The DCT does a nice rev matched downshift directly to the selected gear. If this causes a spun crank hub, then so would revving the engine in neutral.
true. but it does seem more abrupt in the DCT no?

in the manual you are getting the gear you want on the downshift.. car revs up.. then you let the clutch out... then you apply the throttle.. the turbos spool and gradually build torque.

It seems though that with the DCT this all happens very fast while the person is still on the throttle downshifting between gears... and you go from 100 ft/lbs of torque @ 1500rpm to 400 ft/lbs at 5000rpm almost instantly. similar to how a hard launch with boost off the line is also hard on the drivetrain.
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      01-06-2020, 05:56 PM   #101
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I drove a stick for 40+ years, and man am I digging the DCT!
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      01-06-2020, 09:22 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
true. but it does seem more abrupt in the DCT no?

in the manual you are getting the gear you want on the downshift.. car revs up.. then you let the clutch out... then you apply the throttle.. the turbos spool and gradually build torque.

It seems though that with the DCT this all happens very fast while the person is still on the throttle downshifting between gears... and you go from 100 ft/lbs of torque @ 1500rpm to 400 ft/lbs at 5000rpm almost instantly. similar to how a hard launch with boost off the line is also hard on the drivetrain.
Why would it be more abrupt on a DCT ? It does exactly the same as on a 6MT: open the clutch, rev-up the engine and release the clutch. Even if the driver keeps the throttle pedal floored, it is the ECU that adjusts the actual throttle opening for the downshift. Also, on a well executed MT downshift for acceleration, the throttle should not be released.

Further, IMO, it is not the amount of torque produced that will get the crank hub to spin, but rather how quickly the engine is accelerated in revs. As long as it is the engine itself (with a stock tune) that increases its own revs, and not the drive wheels that do it, there is no risk of spinning the crank hub.

As a tidbit, the original S55 tune makes ~330lb-ft of torque at 1500RPM. As a second tidbit, a ft-lb is a unit of energy, not torque; torque is measured in lb-ft .
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      01-06-2020, 10:44 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by tomlong View Post
The DCT is the secret weapon to our car's and one of the many reasons why we have done well against other comparable platforms. Enough for me to say that if I ever owned a Porsche, it would be PDK.
Meh. Accurate but pointless comment.

How a car performs against its competition has nothing to do with driving pleasure. Do you spend your life racing other people? If objective/measurable performance is all that matters then buy a faster car.
Do you like feathering the clutch for 1.5 hours in stop and go traffic?

Do you like an outcome to come down to missing a shift?

Do you like minimal drivetrain loss?

And I do find pleasure in beating my competition, especially if I did it in a slower car.
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      01-07-2020, 12:19 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomlong View Post
Do you like feathering the clutch for 1.5 hours in stop and go traffic?

Do you like an outcome to come down to missing a shift?

Do you like minimal drivetrain loss?

And I do find pleasure in beating my competition, especially if I did it in a slower car.
I agree with Eric on this one, and the stop-and-go argument cuts both ways, since neither DCT nor 6MT is fun to drive in traffic. Not a good argument to make, you know that traffic driving isn’t the purpose of this thread.

Objectively speaking, in 99% of driving scenarios, manual is more fun because it’s more engaging for the brain and body.

IMO Driving enjoyment comes from engagement, which is 99% of the experience. The outcome is the end, winning or losing impacts ego (that 1% of the experience).

You can’t tell me the actual act of tapping a paddle is more fun than rowing through the gears and using the clutch.

I’m am a DCT owner and both my manual 99 M3 and 13 M3 were more enjoyable to drive than the CS.
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      01-07-2020, 01:28 AM   #105
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i don't think anyone can tell anyone what they determine to be fun


/endthread
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      01-07-2020, 01:52 AM   #106
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Lots of keyboard warriors here ... quick to provide "expert" opinion and advice.
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      01-07-2020, 02:07 AM   #107
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I wish I had DCT when I am driving at race track because I don't have to worry about money shift. Also I wish I had DCT when I take my car to a shop so that I don't worry about the shop guy money shifting it while joy riding it. (while I am fine with shop people driving it if they are good people) Except these two situations anything other than 6MT feels like I have something less.. it's weird but I had the feeling of a big loss when I had a 8speed F30.
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