Need some members advice on Methanol injection nozzle location.

[johnnyredgtr]

Here is a picture of my chargepipes with one pipe as boost and the other one for Meth

[johnnyredgtr]

Also, for safety reasons, i did change my meth lines to braided.

[behindthen0thing]

Originally Posted by johnnyredgtr

Also, for safety reasons, i did change my meth lines to braided.

Where did you get those braided lines

[johnnyredgtr]

Originally Posted by behindthen0thing

Where did you get those braided lines

The shop did this for me. I think they are custom made black braided lines.

[papasmurf_m3]

Good question! I was thinking the same. One would think hot side will atomize better and offer cooling.
But, at the J pipe seems better if you're using methanol for fueling requirements and not just cooling and a bump in fueling.

At the chargepipes It would seem like you lose much of the methanol for cooling and not as much for additional fueling requirements. (Those not running PI)

[johnnyredgtr]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

Good question! I was thinking the same. One would think hot side will atomize better and offer cooling.
But, at the J pipe seems better if you're using methanol for fueling requirements and not just cooling and a bump in fueling.

At the chargepipes It would seem like you lose much of the methanol for cooling and not as much for additional fueling requirements. (Those not running PI)

You are right. In my case, i'm using Meth for cooling purpose only. I'm not using PI at all, only Meth.

[mdma-zn]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

Good question! I was thinking the same. One would think hot side will atomize better and offer cooling.
But, at the J pipe seems better if you're using methanol for fueling requirements and not just cooling and a bump in fueling.

At the chargepipes It would seem like you lose much of the methanol for cooling and not as much for additional fueling requirements. (Those not running PI)

Any explanation of why fueling is better if the injection is on the J pipe? As the methanol is not being consumed, for fueling should it make a difference if it is sprayed on the hot or cold side?

[papasmurf_m3]

Originally Posted by mdma-zn

Any explanation of why fueling is better if the injection is on the J pipe? As the methanol is not being consumed, for fueling should it make a difference if it is sprayed on the hot or cold side?

Sorry for delayed response. I thought I clicked send from the app. Must have got sidetracked. Here is my theory based on my experiences in the past.

At the J pipe (cold side) you get a more direct shot into the combustion. Down side, the middle cylinders may get more methanol then the outers. Which is very possible.

At the charge pipes (hot side) you would lose some of the methanol content simply from evaportation and cooling the hot side of the intercooler for example. So, although they are both sucking into the motor. You would evaporate some of that methanol before it reaches the combustion chamber. Is it a lot? I don't know exactly.. But, to my knowledge a lot of guys running dual nozzle at the charge pipes are using mostly for cooling. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Many guys are spraying right into the J pipe and yes although the middle cylinders may get more methanol then the others. The motors seem to be happy and I see a lot of power being made.

Direct port injection is ideal for even distribution of methanol into each cylinder. But, the downside is you get too many droplets and this setup is ideal for maximum cooling. Kind of like port injection. It would require your primary fueling to be dialed back because it could be too rich of a air fuel mixture. I think this setup is overkill for most people.

I will run a few nozzles post intercooler for sure. Not sure where exactly but, J pipe is a good option. If it aint broke dont fix it.

Just my 2 cents.

[BlownOne]

Any and every methanol injection system will tell you to install nozzles 6-12” from the throttle body post intercooler, which is the j-pipe on our platform. Sure you can install them on the I/c pipes pre intercooler, but you are not going to get maximal benefits from the methanol and you are essentially heating the meth injected air back up as it passes through the intercooler.
Spraying a fine mist of alcohol into a pipe with 20-30psi of airflow is going to mix and distribute pretty well, which is all we are looking for. Nobody should be running a tune so far on the ragged edge that a 5-10% variance in methanol per cylinder is going to hurt anything.

Look at datalogs comparing 2 cars with methanol injection pre and post intercooler and I guarantee iats will be lower on the j-pipe injected car.

[E92inSG]

I had my 2 nozzles post intercooler on the intercooler itself. Resulted in uneven trims on bank 1 & 2

Moved the nozzles to charge pipe, bank trims a lot more even but IAT went up, which is what I expected.

Moved the nozzles to j-pipe now and same result as post intercooler placement. Uneven bank trims on 1 & 2. IAT went down.

My conclusion is charge pipe placement allows for best mixing of meth and air before entering the cylinders, but IAT not as effective pre-cooler placement.

Will be putting nozzles back to charge pipes.

[ShoNufff]

I'm looking at running 3 nozzles, 2 in the charge pipes and 1 in the j pipe. What size nozzles is evryone using? I was thinking about using #5 snow 375mL.

[DanMpower]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

I had my 2 nozzles post intercooler on the intercooler itself. Resulted in uneven trims on bank 1 & 2

Moved the nozzles to charge pipe, bank trims a lot more even but IAT went up, which is what I expected.

Moved the nozzles to j-pipe now and same result as post intercooler placement. Uneven bank trims on 1 & 2. IAT went down.

My conclusion is charge pipe placement allows for best mixing of meth and air before entering the cylinders, but IAT not as effective pre-cooler placement.

Will be putting nozzles back to charge pipes.

Was there a reason you didn't run 1 nozzle pre and 1 nozzle post charge cooler? Best of both worlds no?

Maybe have a high flow #6 in the charge pipe for best mixing, then maybe a small #2 or #3 in the J-Pipe to help lower IATs?

That's how I'm setting mine up right now but with two #5s.

[E92inSG]

Originally Posted by DumbAS55

Was there a reason you didn't run 1 nozzle pre and 1 nozzle post charge cooler? Best of both worlds no?

Maybe have a high flow #6 in the charge pipe for best mixing, then maybe a small #2 or #3 in the J-Pipe to help lower IATs?

That's how I'm setting mine up right now but with two #5s.

no i didn't consider this. my logic for the cause of uneven trims would be that the meth doesn't mix well with the charge air going into throttle body. If 2 nozzles at J-pipe lead to uneven trims, I would expect only 1 nozzle to be the same.

Also to have only one charge pipe spraying meth, likely means its going to go thru only one side of the charge cooler, and out the cold side, possibly also having the same effect.

anyway my tuner said he's seen the best results with placement at charge pipes (other than PI), so i'll follow that for now. slight increase in IAT can be negated by advancing timing from meth fueling. i think @f80paul has some experience here

[behindthen0thing]

Pretty sure a guy burned up his engine here putting the meth nozzles in the j pipe. That's what he said at least

[Ed_rx7]

Isn’t that strange.... Cary Jordan thinks differently..... J pipe is the way to go if no PI
I suppose the saga continues ...

He also knows his stuff

Maybe it’s down to how they tune and what they have experienced

Either way both are good tuners so... go with whatever your tuner recommends and they will take care of the rest!

[E92inSG]

honestly i think there're a lot more variables than simply nozzle location. The nozzle CC, type of spray, bung location in the J-pipe, 1 or 2 nozzles etc would prob all matter.

For my particular car, with dual ProMeth 755cc nozzles, the logs are clear and undeniable. The 2 bungs on my RK Tunes j-pipe are on either side of the pipe facing directly into each other. The 2 relatively large cc nozzles would have been spraying directly into each other. This could have been a factor as well. Maybe 1 nozzle or even staggered bung location might have been a better design, I don't know unless I try. For now I'll be going back to charge pipes placement

[Alacrious]

Since Im trying to just run a proper 93 tune in CA, Im trying to go simplest meth setup and just the drop in charge pipes seem to be the easiest. Basic plan is bm3/pipes/meth, use j pipe as boost reference for controller.

Are there any good setups that are know to have a res that mounts nicely in the f80/82 trunk?

[rborane]

Originally Posted by Alacrious

Since Im trying to just run a proper 93 tune in CA, Im trying to go simplest meth setup and just the drop in charge pipes seem to be the easiest. Basic plan is bm3/pipes/meth, use j pipe as boost reference for controller.

Are there any good setups that are know to have a res that mounts nicely in the f80/82 trunk?

I'm probably going to do the same, except I am doing one nozzle in the J-Pipe. Are you just going to run the 93 stage 1 BM3 map? I have only 91 here in AZ also, so trying to decide what map to run with meth without going custom tune

[Alacrious]

Originally Posted by rborane

I'm probably going to do the same, except I am doing one nozzle in the J-Pipe. Are you just going to run the 93 stage 1 BM3 map? I have only 91 here in AZ also, so trying to decide what map to run with meth without going custom tune

I think Im going to take the advice above and do 2 nozzles and use jpipe as reference only. Ill be running the 93 map, thats the idea. Im not trying to go full custom, but spraying meth will easily let it run the stage 1 without correction.

[rborane]

Originally Posted by Alacrious

I think Im going to take the advice above and do 2 nozzles and use jpipe as reference only. Ill be running the 93 map, thats the idea. Im not trying to go full custom, but spraying meth will easily let it run the stage 1 without correction.

Got it. Yeah, I agree that the meth should bump the octane enough to be able to run stage 1 93 without any issues.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by behindthen0thing

Pretty sure a guy burned up his engine here putting the meth nozzles in the j pipe. That's what he said at least

Fully blown engine for me with the J-pipe feed on 99% meth. Hard to control meth dump while the car is in smokey burnout mode in 1st gear.

Originally Posted by Ed_rx7

Isn’t that strange.... Cary Jordan thinks differently..... J pipe is the way to go if no PI
I suppose the saga continues ...

He also knows his stuff

Maybe it’s down to how they tune and what they have experienced

Either way both are good tuners so... go with whatever your tuner recommends and they will take care of the rest!

There are not many who race their cars at the drag strip, so the chances of engine failure due to a J-pipe meth feed are low for most people. I don't recall ever seeing any 1/4 mile drag racing videos from any e-tuner except for Jordan@RKtunes, Terry@BMS (from back in the day), and Mike@MaxPSI if you consider him a tuner.

My next meth configuration will be pre-IC strictly for cooling purposes only. Highly recommend going the PI route if supplemental fuel supply is needed.

[rborane]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

Fully blown engine for me with the J-pipe feed on 99% meth. Hard to control meth dump while the car is in smokey burnout mode in 1st gear.



There are not many who race their cars at the drag strip, so the chances of engine failure due to a J-pipe meth feed are low for most people. I don't recall ever seeing any 1/4 mile drag racing videos from any e-tuner except for Jordan@RKtunes, Terry@BMS (from back in the day), and Mike@MaxPSI if you consider him a tuner.

My next meth configuration will be pre-IC strictly for cooling purposes only. Highly recommend going the PI route if supplemental fuel supply is needed.

Was that the ultimate cause of blowing the engine? What were the specifics? Is there cause to be concerned in running one snow performance #6 nozzle in the J-pipe?