CCB Maintenance Costs

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Want some good news instead?

Sure... What else ya got!

(I do realize there is an iron brake conversion from Racing Brake...)

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Sure... What else ya got!

(I do realize there is an iron brake conversion from Racing Brake...)

The maximum permissible weight loss is not 1000g.

The M5/M6 is 100g Front (410mmx38mm), 70g Rear (396mmx26mm)

What I cannot find anywhere, including TIS, is a data sheet for M3/M4 400x38-380x28 for their specific limits. It should be similar in the front and slightly more for the rear though.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by lemetier

The maximum permissible weight loss is not 1000g.

The M5/M6 is 100g Front (410mmx38mm), 70g Rear (396mmx26mm)

What I cannot find anywhere, including TIS, is a data sheet for M3/M4 400x38-380x28 for their specific limits. It should be similar in the front and slightly more for the rear though.

Yeah, I JUST saw similar data here at: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/att...8&d=1429097850

I've sent a note to my advisor to see if he can find the correct associated numbers for the M3/M4.

My representative front rotor is still 141 grams above the 7215 min weight stamped value (7356 g). My representative rear rotor is still 68 grams above the 5734 min weight stamped value (5802 g).

So, I'm not sure how I could still be 141 grams above a value where there should only have been 100 grams to begin with...

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Yeah, I JUST saw similar data here at: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/att...8&d=1429097850

I've sent a note to my advisor to see if he can find the correct associated numbers for the M3/M4.

My representative front rotor is still 141 grams above the 7215 min weight stamped value (7356 g). My representative rear rotor is still 68 grams above the 5734 min weight stamped value (5802 g).

So, I'm not sure how I could still be 141 grams above a value where there should only have been 100 grams to begin with...

This isn't the first mention here of a disc weights coming back from inspection at an unusual figure. Heavy track use is a common denominator and my theory is the thermal film left behind, environmental residue, and potentially moisture due to the hydroscopic nature of the material when cold is skewing the results. The tolerances are so small and likely hood the measuring device has some margin of error so high, it wouldn't take much to give an incorrect result.

[Dumpspec]

has anyone ever used or heard of this?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by dumpm3

has anyone ever used or heard of this?

Yes. It works well...but it should for $7k

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by lemetier

This isn't the first mention here of a disc weights coming back from inspection at an unusual figure. Heavy track use is a common denominator and my theory is the thermal film left behind, environmental residue, and potentially moisture due to the hydroscopic nature of the material when cold is skewing the results. The tolerances are so small and likely hood the measuring device has some margin of error so high, it wouldn't take much to give an incorrect result.

That seriously sheds some doubt on the method of relying on rotor weight to establish their life...

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That seriously sheds some doubt on the method of relying on rotor weight to establish their life...

To do it properly takes time. The video above specifically addresses these issues in fact. With maximum loss limits of 2.5oz - 3.5oz, accuracy of process is an understatement.

[IB M]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Yes. It works well...but it should for $7k

Cool tech. Worth the $ for a shop or dealership that works on a lot of these brake systems.

Btw CCBs on a F83? That has to be rare.

[jeff4598]

At those prices I would check with an independent shop!

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by jeff4598

At those prices I would check with an independent shop!

Agreed but even with a significant discount, pads and rotors alone are $13k plus labor. What's really hard to fathom is the retrofit package, with calipers and all additional hardware included, is discounted below the cost of the consumables.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by evanevery

This just in! Just got a call from my Service guy...

My M4 needs both pads and rotors for front AND rear. Its $9000 for front rotors and pads and $7700 for rear rotors and pads.

So $16,700 for both ends fully done. ...and I don't even have 4000 miles on the car yet! (OK... OK... so most of those miles were on the track...)

Anyway, the front left weighed in at 7356g with a min stamped weight of 7215g. I think I remember reading the min allowable weight was based on a 1000g allowable loss, that means my fronts had about 14% remaining.

The rear right weighed in at 5802g out of an allowable 5734g. If the allowable loss on the rears is 1000g like the fronts, then I have only 6.8% left on the rears. This may not be the case though as the rear rotors are a bit lighter than the fronts...

Anyway... That's the poop!

Yikes what are you going to do? Convert to Iron?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Agreed but even with a significant discount, pads and rotors alone are $13k plus labor. What's really hard to fathom is the retrofit package, with calipers and all additional hardware included, is discounted below the cost of the consumables.

Might as well buy that kit every time the rotors need to be replaced. Like this you get inclusive new calipers (with new seals)

[evanevery]

I just got back from the SCCA Nationals in Mid-Ohio.

I decided just to do the Front Rotors - but do pads all around. I also asked my shop to carefully save me the front rotors in the event that further investigation leads me to believe there is usable life left in them.

My shop is going to weigh the NEW front rotors and then give me their specific weights as well as the min weight stamped on each rotor. This should be sufficient to confirm BMW is simply using an allowable loss value for each rotor - and to identify what that value is. Once I know what the allowable loss is (in grams) it will be much easier to determine how worn a rotor actually is:

( (Actual Weight - Min Weight) / (New Weight - Min Weight) ) * 100 = Percent Life Remaining

As I'm not getting my rear rotors replaced, I've reached out to a couple of friends at the BMW PDC in Spartanburg to see if they have a couple of new rear CCB rotors on the shelf for their M3/M4 fleet. I've also asked them for the new weight of a couple of rear rotors as well as the stamped minimum weight on each. This should give us the numbers we need for a similar calculation on the rear rotors.

The unfortunate part is that I'm not yet at the min weight of ANY of my rotors (despite what the wear indicators say). If I wasn't using this car on the track, I would not replace anything yet. However, with a track car, since I'm doing pads all around, it would be wise to also do the rotors if I'm getting "close". The unfortunate part is we do not have enough info (yet) to determine what "CLOSE" actually is...

But I'm working on that...

[evanevery]

I just got the following info back from my shop ($10K for front rotors and pads front/rear):

New Rotor Info (Weight New - Min Weight = Usable Weight):

LF: 7356g - 7165g = 191g
RF: 7294g - 7096g = 198g

So it looks like there is about 200 grams of meat (usable weight) on each of the front rotors...

Here is the data from my front rotors which were removed:

LF: 7350g - 7215g = 135g // 135/200 = 67.5% remaining!
RF: 7363g - 7224g = 139g // 139/200 = 69.5% remaining

So, now I need to find out if my rotors were REALLY done. The wear indicators seemed to indicate this, but the weight reduction says I have 2/3 of their life left. Short of buying a Carboteq instrument ($6500), there ought to be a better way. We are still researching this...

I'm also still waiting for New/Min weights from an unused set of REAR rotors for comparison...

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I just got the following info back from my shop ($10K for front rotors and pads front/rear):

New Rotor Info (Weight New - Min Weight = Usable Weight):

LF: 7356g - 7165g = 191g
RF: 7294g - 7096g = 198g

So it looks like there is about 200 grams of meat (usable weight) on each of the front rotors...

Here is the data from my front rotors which were removed:

LF: 7350g - 7215g = 135g // 135/200 = 67.5% remaining!
RF: 7363g - 7224g = 139g // 139/200 = 69.5% remaining

So, now I need to find out if my rotors were REALLY done. The wear indicators seemed to indicate this, but the weight reduction says I have 2/3 of their life left. Short of buying a Carboteq instrument ($6500), there ought to be a better way. We are still researching this...

I'm also still waiting for New/Min weights from an unused set of REAR rotors for comparison...

Will BMW cover the pads and rotors under warranty?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I just got the following info back from my shop ($10K for front rotors and pads front/rear):

New Rotor Info (Weight New - Min Weight = Usable Weight):

LF: 7356g - 7165g = 191g
RF: 7294g - 7096g = 198g

So it looks like there is about 200 grams of meat (usable weight) on each of the front rotors...

Here is the data from my front rotors which were removed:

LF: 7350g - 7215g = 135g // 135/200 = 67.5% remaining!
RF: 7363g - 7224g = 139g // 139/200 = 69.5% remaining

So, now I need to find out if my rotors were REALLY done. The wear indicators seemed to indicate this, but the weight reduction says I have 2/3 of their life left. Short of buying a Carboteq instrument ($6500), there ought to be a better way. We are still researching this...

I'm also still waiting for New/Min weights from an unused set of REAR rotors for comparison...

How was the weight new determined for both sets?

[dr.mba]

Wow I feel your pain!! This is stuff I didn't even know about. So glad I passed on the CCBs especially that I wouldn't have put them to real use as I don't see myself tracking the car at all (well....maybe once or twice in its life time at best)

M

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Will BMW cover the pads and rotors under warranty?

Nope... Not for CCB's and I expect not if you track your car in any case...

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by lemetier

How was the weight new determined for both sets?

Umm... By weighing them?

The new rotors were weighed before they were installed. My old/used rotors were weighed after they were removed.

Still waiting for the weights of a couple of new REAR rotors so I can establish a similar baseline. I have the weight of one, but I'm waiting for a second to ensure the numbers are relatively close. I'll post this info as soon as I get it.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by dr.mba

Wow I feel your pain!! This is stuff I didn't even know about. So glad I passed on the CCBs especially that I wouldn't have put them to real use as I don't see myself tracking the car at all (well....maybe once or twice in its life time at best)

M

I think you need to reconsider your logic...

Although the CCB's work real well for track use, their best investment may actually be for STREET use. They last forever on the street, still work exceptionally well, and don't produce any brake dust.

Its ironic, but the high replacement cost of CCB's is only a factor if you actually track your car. If you're running you car on the street, you get all the benefits and likely won't ever have to replace them.

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I think you need to reconsider your logic...

Although the CCB's work real well for track use, their best investment may actually be for STREET use. They last forever on the street, still work exceptionally well, and don't produce any brake dust.

Its ironic, but the high replacement cost of CCB's is only a factor if you actually track your car. If you're running you car on the street, you get all the benefits and likely won't ever have to replace them.

if you leased, doesn't make sense to me. If you bought it and plan to track yes. Regardless, it's facking expensive.