Appt confirmed with a BMW NA Engineer

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Originally Posted by BitchinManWheels

My theory of "fix" vs "patch" is true for this fix as well. Glad it's driving straight but this is not a fix as you know. I could do the same thing to my car today with my camber plates put I refuse to do this to my car. Adding more positive (less neg) to driver's side or more negative camber to passenger' side will make these cars track straight but it doesn't fix the problem!
Keep pushing until they fix the problem or lemon the car. BMWNA needs to fix this problem!!!

Totally agree. I'm just glad I caught this at low mileage, can't imagine the pushback I'd get if I'd been at 2K or more miles.

I just left a long, rambling message with my NA rep, we'll see what he says. Basically said that since this is their 4th attempt at a the same repair (fix the pull right) at less than 1500 miles, they either need to come up with a different plan to fix it - and having one corner out of spec is NOT a fix, or it's time to start considering the Lemon statute.

[ONE1]

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

Well, got the car back, drove home and it's tracking totally straight with no pull. But when I pulled in the garage and popped the glovebox to see the alignment specs(where the tech had put them the last 4 times) - should have done this up front - it was not there.

Emailed my SA and he shot it right over which was great.

But now the alignment specs are totally whacked.

-.39 left front, -1.2 right front. That's almost a full degree off left to right. As you can see from the bottom of the sheet, it even warns it's out of spec

This may not be an issue for a non-tracked car, but that one corner is so far off - a degree of camber differential on one corner is a ton from my experience - that it will make the car hard to handle at turn-in and likely very twitchy on corner exit.

SA is asking me to call NA to see what they say as this was the last fix they had. Having one corner this far off spec should not be the fix. It's like adding a ton of left toe to stop a right pull. Sure, it fixes it, but it's not a real solution. I wonder if there's a Lemon case coming...

Calling them now.

Can you help us understand what compromises are made to the performance of these cars when this "patch" is applied?

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Originally Posted by ONE1

Can you help us understand what compromises are made to the performance of these cars when this "patch" is applied?

Basically - in this case anyway - the angle the suspension is putting the tire - aka contact patch - to the ground is different right to left with this set up.

It would not be bad to have both front corners be similar in camber (the 340 I traded for this car was about -.50 on both front sides), but having one so far off - which is why it's highlighted in red in the alignment sheet - will cause handling issues on track for sure. Especially on any quick transitions, like the esses at COTA, as the car will have differential grip one side to the other.

The reason you want more camber for a car on track is that when you turn in and corner, the wheel/tires stay perpendicular to the ground the more camber you have instead of rolling over the edge of the tire, which is exactly what would happen if I tracked the car with this alignment set up.

Again, on the street this will be more of a tire wear issue, but on track, any rapid right to left or left to right transitions will result in skittish and likely unpredictable behavior. Not something anyone wants, there's a reason the camber in the front was about -1.3 on both sides prior to them "fixing" it.

Keep in mind, both alignment readings on the attached sheet are *after* they added the +30 camber correction, not as it was when I dropped the car off last Friday. Those specs - and a image of that alignment - are in the other thread I have going on this topic.

For more context on why this is bad, on the E36 Franken race car I used to have, we ran -3.5 front on both sides, and -2.2 in the rear.

I can't imagine driving a car with -2.5 left front and -3.5 right front - which these alignment specs are akin to.

Hope that makes sense.

[The Choosey begger]

My Ohlins fixed the pull to the right and i'm running the same camber on both sides how it should be.

Corner balancing the car will help eliminate the pull but BMW shocks aren't height adjustable.

[BitchinManWheels]

Originally Posted by anglo

My Ohlins fixed the pull to the right and i'm running the same camber on both sides how it should be.

Corner balancing the car will help eliminate the pull but BMW shocks aren't height adjustable.

My car is corner balanced with Dinan suspension and it still pulls right. Next week I'm getting my caster adjusted, hopefully this is the "fix".
I think I read your car has the passenger front 1/2" higher than the other wheels. Did you do this to correct the pull?

[AustinTrkJunkie]

But the real point is that we *shouldn't* have to do anything like springs or CO's to make the car do something it should from the factory, track straight.

Hell, even the loaners I've had while all these efforts to correct this has been going down - a 328i, 340i and 535i - could all drive perfectly straight with no issues.

That says more about this being a real issue than anything else...

[BitchinManWheels]

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

But the real point is that we *shouldn't* have to do anything like springs or CO's to make the car do something it should from the factory, track straight.

Hell, even the loaners I've had while all these efforts to correct this has been going down - a 328i, 340i and 535i - could all drive perfectly straight with no issues.

That says more about this being a real issue than anything else...

Indeed!!!
Talking with a friend today who owns a M6 and his car pulls to the right too! He just learned to live with it and not complain. I think this is a problem with other BMW's too and others just "learned to live with it". BMW just "patches" the cars for people who complain and send them on their way. Most of these people don't care how or why it's "fixed" as long as the car drives straight.
Don't settle for a car that pulls right or one that drives straight with f'ed alignment!!!

[MadZarBMR]

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

But the real point is that we *shouldn't* have to do anything like springs or CO's to make the car do something it should from the factory, track straight.

Hell, even the loaners I've had while all these efforts to correct this has been going down - a 328i, 340i and 535i - could all drive perfectly straight with no issues.

That says more about this being a real issue than anything else...

Sorry man - Was really hoping you would get something more than the patch jobs the rest of us have received. Thank you for keeping us informed and keep fighting the good fight.

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by BitchinManWheels

My car is corner balanced with Dinan suspension and it still pulls right. Next week I'm getting my caster adjusted, hopefully this is the "fix".
I think I read your car has the passenger front 1/2" higher than the other wheels. Did you do this to correct the pull?

Yes about 1/2", but the car looks level, same wheel gap on both sides.
Just reporting my findings, after installing the coilovers took the car for a test drive and the car drove straight.
Then i got the car aligned a couple of days later, it still drove straight.

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

But the real point is that we *shouldn't* have to do anything like springs or CO's to make the car do something it should from the factory, track straight.

Hell, even the loaners I've had while all these efforts to correct this has been going down - a 328i, 340i and 535i - could all drive perfectly straight with no issues.

That says more about this being a real issue than anything else...

I understand what you're saying, you're right. I was gonna get the Ohlins anyway even if the car tracked straight.
A set of TC Klines or Ohlins not only rides smoother but handles better.

[knightarmor]

Been skimming through these threads for a while. Does that alignment sheet really say -.39 degrees on one side and -1.20 degrees of camber on the other??? (I'm looking St this on a phone and resolution is kinda jacked up). This is a seriously f'd up solution to the problem. Typical you don't see this type of a fix unless you're trying to fix the alignment on a car that's had frame damage. This seems like a electric steering problem or a chassis problem. Makes me nervous as I'm about to receive my car in about a week...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ONE1

Can you help us understand what compromises are made to the performance of these cars when this "patch" is applied?

Camber deforms the tire contact patch making it more triangularly shaped. The consequence of this is introducing what is called a thrust vector which has the tire generating lateral grip even without thr tire being "steered". Using this charateristic by applying different camber settings on each side to compensate "pull" is not a good practice as it will adversly affect how the car handles during cornering. A certain amount of negative camber is needed to ensure the contact patch remains as optimal as possible when cornering. Having different static camber on each side inherently means cornering dynamics on one of the two sides is compromised.

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Originally Posted by knightarmor

Been skimming through these threads for a while. Does that alignment sheet really say -.39 degrees on one side and -1.20 degrees of camber on the other??? (I'm looking St this on a phone and resolution is kinda jacked up). This is a seriously f'd up solution to the problem. Typical you don't see this type of a fix unless you're trying to fix the alignment on a car that's had frame damage. This seems like a electric steering problem or a chassis problem. Makes me nervous as I'm about to receive my car in about a week...

Yes, it really does say -.39. It's a bandaid, not a real fix.

I was chatting with one of my track buddies and he wonders is this may be due to a bent/tweaked frame from shipment. Yet another vector for causation to consider...

[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Camber deforms the tire contact patch making it more triangularly shaped. The consequence of this is introducing what is called a thrust vector which has the tire generating lateral grip even without thr tire being "steered". Using this charateristic by applying different camber settings on each side to compensate "pull" is not a good practice as it will adversly affect how the car handles during cornering. A certain amount of negative camber is needed to ensure the contact patch remains as optimal as possible when cornering. Having different static camber on each side inherently means cornering dynamics on one of the two sides is compromised.

The car will turn right like a non M car and understeer more, turn left like a proper M car.

-.38 front neg camber is within non M car specs...

[DavidGP]

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

Yes, it really does say -.39. It's a bandaid, not a real fix.

I was chatting with one of my track buddies and he wonders is this may be due to a bent/tweaked frame from shipment. Yet another vector for causation to consider...

Wasnt there a train hauling M cars a long time ago that derailed? Maybe you got one of those cars that apparently survived..

[knightarmor]

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

Yes, it really does say -.39. It's a bandaid, not a real fix.

I was chatting with one of my track buddies and he wonders is this may be due to a bent/tweaked frame from shipment. Yet another vector for causation to consider...

I doubt the frame bent but at this point anything is possible. The last time I had alignment issues, albeit not this bad, on my track car my chassis had cracked at the front lower corner of the driver side windshield. We think this happened because we only have half the roll cage in the car and all the stress started moving to the weakest point of the chassis.

Based on your original description saying you heard a loud pop one day while driving I might guess (and this is a real stretch here) that the chassis has a crack somewhere or a weld popped hence giving you a tweaked chassis. This of course being the most extreme worst case scenario. I truly hope this is not the case.

[knightarmor]

And actually now that I think about it more I would say the more likely culprit might be that one of those fancy aluminum braces under the car is cracked somewhere.

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Originally Posted by anglo

The car will turn right like a non M car and understeer more, turn left like a proper M car.

-.38 front neg camber is within non M car specs...

Heh, the 340 had more front camber, was -.49 and -.51 right to left - lol

[MadZarBMR]

I just dropped off my car with what will now be the 4th indie shop for another alignment. Armed with the info on this thread I plan on opening my own case with BMW NA. I will post my all of my alignment specs here once I get the car back later today.

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Originally Posted by MadZarBMR

I just dropped off my car with what will now be the 4th indie shop for another alignment. Armed with the info on this thread I plan on opening my own case with BMW NA. I will post my all of my alignment specs here once I get the car back later today.

Good luck, and do keep us posted!

I haven't heard back from my rep yet, but figure that they are gathering data from the dealership before contacting me.

[YMBdoc]

I"m having a hard time uploading my alignment spec but my front left camber is -0.49 and front right is -1.02. I told the service manager it is out of spec and he said it is within BMW recommendations for the swivel bearing fix? Any thoughts on these specs? My car has been driving fine. Will this screw my tires ?

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Originally Posted by YMBdoc

I"m having a hard time uploading my alignment spec but my front left camber is -0.49 and front right is -1.02. I told the service manager it is out of spec and he said it is within BMW recommendations for the swivel bearing fix? Any thoughts on these specs? My car has been driving fine. Will this screw my tires ?

Why did you have it aligned? was it pulling?

As to -.49, that's really bad IMO as it's the same as my 340 had, which is obviously not an M-car. It's also over half a degree delta between the two sides, which seems to be a lot, not quite as pronounced as my current settings, but still out of whack.

when I first had the car aligned at about 300 miles, it was -1.4 and -1.5 right to left which I believe is sort of where an M-car with stock EDC should be.