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      08-22-2013, 12:40 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You sir are completely incorrect on this. A slushbox is a traditional automatic transmission with both planetary gears and more importantly a torque converter that uses fluid coupling rather than direct clutch coupling to gradually engage the power to the wheels. The feeling of disconnectedness (and smoothness) that comes from this is the reason they are called slushboxes. This is not what DCT is, not how it works and not how it feels, period.
Thank you for that elementary education. Please read my post that was literally 3 posts above yours:

No third pedal = slushbox in terms of driving engagement.
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      08-22-2013, 12:42 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It's a big stretch. The term slushbox refers to the fluid coupling employed by the torque converter inside an automatic transmission. A DCT has no torque converter so there is no "slush". Shifting a DCT certainly requires less involvement than a true manual transmission, but there's no real justification for specifically claiming it is "still a slushbox".
Fine...I'll edit my statement:

No third pedal = non-engagedbox in terms of driving engagement.
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      08-22-2013, 12:42 AM   #113
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      08-22-2013, 12:44 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
We inderstand because that's what the other nine of us think when we see a car with a New Jersey license plate.


I'm kidding of course. But I'll bet the expression on your face was priceless for that moment when you first reacted

In all seriousness, try to refrain from making things personal, please.
That was funny though. I spent 7 years in NJ. I now know why they have the highest auto insurance rates in the country!
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      08-22-2013, 12:49 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjd598 View Post
Let me guess you're not a turbo fan? Just kidding but I'm surprised you wouldn't stand up for your own 335i's exhaust. You have to take note of what a v8 exhaust sounds like and compare them to other v8 exhausts.
Actually, I have to update my profile. I no longer have the 335i. One of the reasons was the exhaust! It's not bad for a 6 cylinder, but compared to what I have now, it sounds truly pansy. Like someone said, it sounds like a fartcan.

I actually don't mind turbos at all. IMO, you can have a great exhaust note and a turbo. However, the best exhaust notes on the market now IMO are the SRT exhaust. Ridiculously low and smooth baritone notes. Not thrashy and obnoxious like Mustangs. Not midrange like Ferrari, etc. The 6.4L V8 and 8.4L V10 are naturally aspirated.
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      08-22-2013, 12:52 AM   #116
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Sounds very e46 m3ish
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      08-22-2013, 12:53 AM   #117
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If I am to order I think I'll go with DCT. There is no denying the performance and convenience benefit. Imo if the manual guys were to drive one of these manumatics at the track and/or back roads many may change their minds. Sure there are those who get the DCT as they think of it as an an automatic but there are many others who choose it over the manual for efficiency in performance reasons.

Not to mention resale. How many DCT's to manual's chosen by purchasers is it again? Something like 85/15? So you go to sell your manual and the potential pool of buyers is much lower.
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      08-22-2013, 12:54 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gjm127
I just don't understand why BMW would do this? Check the stats, the forums, people WANT 6MT... I don't see the marketing strategy here at all...
Do what? It's just a false rumor about no MT. Jason already said it was false and showed evidence
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      08-22-2013, 12:55 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
Fine...I'll edit my statement:

No third pedal = non-engagedbox in terms of driving engagement.
In understand your qualification but you should also understand how poor of a work choice it was. You should have just said automatic.

However, I still disagree with such a corrected version of the statement and have outlined my positions in a couple of long preceeding posts.
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      08-22-2013, 12:56 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Specifically with regards to shifting no it's not more engaging but it also is not significantly less. With regards to the overall experience of driving it simply allows more (of our limited) mental bandwidth to be consumed on things computers can't quite do as well as we can such as corner set up and entry, foreaft and side to side car balancing, throttle steering, perfect braking and trail braking, choosing the best lines, etc.

With DCT one can indded use the left leg! For braking! Not quite yet a skill I have mastered but it's certainly possible and there are some subtle benefits. Even if you don't do that I find DCT plenty plenty engaging. In the manual mode, again, one decides the point of every up and every down shift. That's not different than with a MT. When attempting to go very fast in a MT car how often does one really need to do anything with the clutch except operate it as fast as possible? It's exceptionally rare. In rally or offroad (and I've done plenty of motocross and off road motorcycling) the use of the clutch is way more critical and I'd simply never want a DCT in such an environment. There it is hands down too much loss of control. In a car, at the drag strip or on a road coarse, it's just not a significant or consequential loss.

As a thought experiment one should imagine with DCT that the pull of the lever operates the clutch and the release of the level operates the shifter. Now technically it does not work that way, but it easily could be programmed to do so. Then I am operating both the clutch and shifter. How is that not a manual transmission? Oh yes, the throw of the lever is too short, oh and the lever is too easy to pull, oh yeah and you can't slip the clutch it is only open or closed, oh yeah and you don't have to use a leg, oh yeah and the level is electronic no mechanical. Sorry but those arguments are entirely weak sauce.

Before the M-DCT I too was a lifelong MT guy, every car I've ever had (and I tracked quite a few of them) was MT. Sure rowing the gears and stomping the foot is mildly entertaining but it just isn't significant enough to worry about it being gone. I think for many pro MT/anti DCT it's an issue of pride and a feeling of superiority over all of those who only know how to drive an automatic. Just like with losing points and distributors, hand crank starting and lap (only) belts the days of the MT are pretty well gone. Are we less in touch with our cars because starting them takes no cursing and sweat, perhaps because many systems have become maintenance free? Maybe we need to get rid of all of our acoustic and NVH treatments so we can really hear and feel every rumble and roar of the car. Surely that will make us more "in touch". Maybe we can also go with no air conditioning because it saps precious crank power and add unnecessary weight? To all of those I think not and neither do you, MT fan or not.

Thank you again Porsche for the bravery in the decision for PDK only in the GT3. I am seriously thinking about ending my good long run of M cars for something new along this line. No not because of this bold transmission decision, but I still applaud the decision. I wouldn't own a car that did not have a dual clutch option.
You make a compelling argument. I, like most reasonably informed people here, would agree that DCT is faster, but I'm still not convinced it is more engaging. There is something to be said about full control of the car. Turn off the traction control/DSC with a manual, and it's pretty much you and the road. Can never do that with DCT/auto.

For example, many times, I like to directly go from 2nd to 4th or 5th. Or I coast in neutral. I don't want to have to click gears to go from 2 to 5. I want full control. That is full engagement. Also, I want to feel what gear I am in with my hands, not have to look down to see what gear I am in.
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      08-22-2013, 01:04 AM   #121
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Please sign me for Manual!

Thanks.....
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      08-22-2013, 01:16 AM   #122
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Transmissions aside, look at that picture of the M3 at the pump! It looks the business and significantly more menacing than the F30. I hope the interior is a similar upgrade in sportiness and quality of materials to set it apart from the so-so F30 interior.
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      08-22-2013, 02:02 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KORALLROT
I really really tried to like the ZF8 in my f30 335i. No go. Needs more manual.

Really relieved to hear that my next car will have a manual option.

(Cars in video sound terrible. I'm sure this will not be the case with the production version, although they do seem to have much more raspy-ness and a lot less throaty-ness than past M's.)
I'm not arguing that 6MT isn't the better choice, but don't compare a 335 auto to M-DCT. Worlds apart. You should drive the DCT before judgment.
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      08-22-2013, 02:21 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuggerat89 View Post
When I walk across a parking lot to go into a store or the mall, and I spot a BMW, I make it a point to walk over and see what type of gearbox it has. Nine times out of ten, it's an auto or DCT and I think to myself, what a loser.

Call me childish, call me close minded, call me what you want. IMO, if you don't drive a manual gearbox, if you don't suffer with the car, if you don't feel what the car is doing, and make decisions for the car -- like when to clutch in, when to feather, when to rev match, then you aren't a real enthusiast. And you aren't one because you don't want to be bothered with the things that require effort, diligence, and skill to perfect. You just want to get where ever it is you're going and look the part when you pull into the parking lot.

Obviously my opinion is harsh and one sided, and I've grossly generalized. But, that's how I feel, and it is what it is.

If BMW leaves behind the manual transmission I will just buy used, older model BMW's until I can no longer drive.

Haha, I do the exact same thing. I always feel a little sick to my stomach when I see the auto. Transversely, I get excited and have a grin on my face when I see a manual. I recently had a mom with 2 kids in car seats, she had a three series in manual. I was elated and even told her that I loved her rocking the manual. Thumbs up moment in the parking lot. I love manuals!!
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      08-22-2013, 02:45 AM   #125
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Totally lame.
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      08-22-2013, 02:53 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The English Guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longbow64
Save the manuals!
We won't miss manual M's.........discuss

Debate: Why the ultimate driving machine is actually improved and defined by paddle shifted gearboxes

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=28276
Just an article I saw and thought was relevant to this thread, not my opinion
Nice article. Screw the manual. Its old technology to me. I'm done with it.
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      08-22-2013, 02:59 AM   #127
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6mt for life.
7mt would be nice.
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      08-22-2013, 03:44 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Specifically with regards to shifting no it's not more engaging but it also is not significantly less. With regards to the overall experience of driving it simply allows more (of our limited) mental bandwidth to be consumed on things computers can't quite do as well as we can such as corner set up and entry, foreaft and side to side car balancing, throttle steering, perfect braking and trail braking, choosing the best lines, etc.

With DCT one can indded use the left leg! For braking! Not quite yet a skill I have mastered but it's certainly possible and there are some subtle benefits. Even if you don't do that I find DCT plenty plenty engaging. In the manual mode, again, one decides the point of every up and every down shift. That's not different than with a MT. When attempting to go very fast in a MT car how often does one really need to do anything with the clutch except operate it as fast as possible? It's exceptionally rare. In rally or offroad (and I've done plenty of motocross and off road motorcycling) the use of the clutch is way more critical and I'd simply never want a DCT in such an environment. There it is hands down too much loss of control. In a car, at the drag strip or on a road coarse, it's just not a significant or consequential loss.

As a thought experiment one should imagine with DCT that the pull of the lever operates the clutch and the release of the level operates the shifter. Now technically it does not work that way, but it easily could be programmed to do so. Then I am operating both the clutch and shifter. How is that not a manual transmission? Oh yes, the throw of the lever is too short, oh and the lever is too easy to pull, oh yeah and you can't slip the clutch it is only open or closed, oh yeah and you don't have to use a leg, oh yeah and the level is electronic no mechanical. Sorry but those arguments are entirely weak sauce.

Before the M-DCT I too was a lifelong MT guy, every car I've ever had (and I tracked quite a few of them) was MT. Sure rowing the gears and stomping the foot is mildly entertaining but it just isn't significant enough to worry about it being gone. I think for many pro MT/anti DCT it's an issue of pride and a feeling of superiority over all of those who only know how to drive an automatic. Just like with losing points and distributors, hand crank starting and lap (only) belts the days of the MT are pretty well gone. Are we less in touch with our cars because starting them takes no cursing and sweat, perhaps because many systems have become maintenance free? Maybe we need to get rid of all of our acoustic and NVH treatments so we can really hear and feel every rumble and roar of the car. Surely that will make us more "in touch". Maybe we can also go with no air conditioning because it saps precious crank power and add unnecessary weight? To all of those I think not and neither do you, MT fan or not.

Thank you again Porsche for the bravery in the decision for PDK only in the GT3. I am seriously thinking about ending my good long run of M cars for something new along this line. No not because of this bold transmission decision, but I still applaud the decision. I wouldn't own a car that did not have a dual clutch option.
For the record have driven DCT be it not extensively, amazing kit no issue with it whatsoever. Have driven MT for the last 12 years but not hung up on pride or any sort of underlying inferiority complex so that driving MT makes me feel like a ‘better’ driver. To your point that with DCT you are able to focus on turn-in and throttle application, best line etc I agree with and has its merits, but incorporating changing gears, rev matching when downshifting etc isn’t that all just part of the experience and mental/physical complexity that makes driving enjoyable and so challenging? If you’re after the quickest lap at a track then yes can’t disagree but not necessarily the case in this context of discussion.

The argument of what part of the mechanical process can be removed before it starts detracting from the driving experience is a tough question. Need to define driving experience and the aspects of what make that up, there are going to be individualistic parts to it I’m guessing. Some may believe they are more of a purist hence may regard certain parts of the driving process more important than others. No right or wrong to it just opinions.

No doubt DCT/PDK are slowly being phased out as the case with the Lambos/Fezzas, that is evident with the M3 sales numbers perhaps post F80/82 era, so unless there was a massive upsurge in MT sales would be hard to see them lasting a lot longer. How long will I try ‘resist’? In the short term to medium term as far as a weekend car goes (which my E90 M3 is most of the time given I live in London) would like to keep it MT, if I need to be driving everyday in traffic I’m sure I’ll be considering some form of an automatic gearbox.
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      08-22-2013, 04:06 AM   #129
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MT or auto/DCT is mostly a cultural thing.

In Europe we grew up with cars that had mt. Bad MTs. Whenever we got in a car that had auto I thought it was luxury or sporty simply because it was different. Even today it is hard to rent a car with auto.

In USA you grew up with auto cars. Not very good autos. I think you look at mt the way you do simply because it is different.

IMHO a good MT is a good MT and a good DCT is a good DCT. Booth are good! And you can't compare the MT in an M3 with an MT in a crapy rental car and you can't compare the DCT with a crapy auto.

I have driven both mt and DCT M3. Booth are good but I prefer the DCT simply because I have a choice in driving it in auto mode when I feel for and in manual mode when I feel for that.

I don't feel less connected to the car in a DCT. Is it because I'm so used to crappy MTs? I don't know

It is simply too costly to develop the car for 2 different gearbox options so MT is slowly disappearing simply because there are too few of them sold. The demand is just not big enough. I'm sure that we won't see a 7 mt gearbox for the M4

Will M3/M4 have a mt option in the US? Absolutely
Will it have it in Europe? Probably this time around but I don't think it will be an mt of the next version in 8 years or so in Europe. Maybe in the us.
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      08-22-2013, 04:43 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I guess I can never resist this topic...
  1. A DCT is not an automatic, it is automatable.
  2. The design, engineering, construction and most importantly the FEEL of the DCT is like a manual. I think most (or certainly at least many) who criticize DCT have not driven an M3 through the gears in S5 mode shifting at redline.
  3. DCT in manual mode is very involving and satisfying. You still shift, just on the steering wheel rather than on the tranny tunnel. Oh wait, you can do that too. Who cares about the clutch pedal...
  4. I seriously applaud Porsche for their decision for PDK (dual clutch) only
  5. Shifting a traditional manual is clearly not the only way to be involved with and in touch with ones driving. Do you think F1 folks miss the clutch pedal or need to be "more involved"... There is plenty left to do in high performance driving other than worry about the clutch pedal.
Who cares what it's name is exactly ? The point is that you don't have a clutch nor stick anymore, and the car shifts gears for you, so people call that an automatic.
With an automatic, your left foot becomes useless for driving, and 'advanced' techniques like heel/toe rev-matching when braking and downshifting cannot be executed anymore. Lots of people like this involvement.

The physical act of flicking a switch just cannot be as involving as a foot/hand synchronised action for switching gears. It's like sports. Sport is about people having better hand/foot/eye coordination than others.
Also, a 80 year old who never drove a car, can execute a perfect gear switch with AT. The same 80 year old will probably never be able to execute a heel-and-toe downshift.

EDIT: I'm sure there's other techniques to be learned when driving a performance AT car.

F1 is not about involvement. F1 is about technology to be the fastest around the track. Nobody will argue that an automatic/DCT is faster than a MT.

If you're happy with your automatic, that's fine.
But no need to convert everyone else to your belief.

In the end, MT will probably go the dinosaur way, but that's for economic reasons because most car buyers prefer automatic because it is easier / lazier to drive around town, not because there's no people left who like MT.

Last edited by hwelvaar; 08-22-2013 at 05:11 AM..
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      08-22-2013, 05:11 AM   #131
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I think the main thing manual drivers like about 6MT is bragging that they drive a 6MT. Too bad they are clueless and dont realize that the only ppl who care are other 6MT drivers. Just one big insecure group of men.

Oh and if the M4 farts that bad stock then the aftermarket wont even be able to save it IMO.
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      08-22-2013, 05:15 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM3S View Post
I think the main thing manual drivers like about 6MT is bragging that they drive a 6MT. Just one big insecure group of men.
LOL. You must be American. In Europe people brag they have an automatic, because it is a (costly) option. Everyone has been driving MT for the past 50 years here, including women.
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