Coby Wheel
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-22-2013, 05:46 AM   #133
Xelloss
Private First Class
Xelloss's Avatar
United_States
22
Rep
172
Posts

Drives: BMW E46 M3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
Who cares what it's name is exactly ? The point is that you don't have a clutch nor stick anymore, and the car shifts gears for you, so people call that an automatic.
With an automatic, your left foot becomes useless for driving, and 'advanced' techniques like heel/toe rev-matching when braking and downshifting cannot be executed anymore. Lots of people like this involvement.

The physical act of flicking a switch just cannot be as involving as a foot/hand synchronised action for switching gears. It's like sports. Sport is about people having better hand/foot/eye coordination than others.
Also, a 80 year old who never drove a car, can execute a perfect gear switch with AT. The same 80 year old will probably never be able to execute a heel-and-toe downshift.

EDIT: I'm sure there's other techniques to be learned when driving a performance AT car.

F1 is not about involvement. F1 is about technology to be the fastest around the track. Nobody will argue that an automatic/DCT is faster than a MT.

If you're happy with your automatic, that's fine.
But no need to convert everyone else to your belief.

In the end, MT will probably go the dinosaur way, but that's for economic reasons because most car buyers prefer automatic because it is easier / lazier to drive around town, not because there's no people left who like MT.
Your left foot doesn't have to be useless; you should then learn how to left foot brake. Having an automatically operated clutch allows you to further focus on the driving experience and doesn't rob a person from the true and pure involvement of driving. I learned how to drive manual (and the advanced techniques as previously mentioned) through my Dad and him borrowing my Uncle's beat up 1992 Toyota Celica for many weekends. I am thankful for that experience, which has allowed me to drive a great myriad of manual cars (and some early Porsches with their infamously heavy clutches). but with my own experience with my SMG has only heightened my involvement and attentiveness to my driving experience. Driving is a personal and very subjective matter anyway...


We should always be forward thinking; the clutch and combustion engine will one day disappear and the world will have vehicles running on eerily silent electric engines and single speed transmissions. I guess my experience as a former engineer has taught me to embrace technology and better processes. Logically, it's the way to progress.
__________________
2004 E46 M3, Jet Black/Black Interior, SMG II, Nav/Fully Loaded

"I feel the need...

...the need for speed!"
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 06:07 AM   #134
Rupes
Major
Rupes's Avatar
United_States
967
Rep
1,455
Posts

Drives: F87 M2 (current), E90 330xi (w
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oregon

iTrader: (0)

I can't believe how many people, "applaud Porsche," for not offering a 6MT on the GT3. Since when is less choice a good thing for consumers? I don't believe Porsche did this to make a statement. I think they simply wanted the most technologically advanced piece of equipment in their top end car. Why spend million (yes millions) of dollars designing and certifying a transmission on a low production car that less than 10% of your customers would buy? It's a financial decision, plain and simple.

Secondly, why do auto/DCT owners always feel that us 6MT enthusiasts simply need to be "educated" on the benefits of new transmission options in cars today? It's condescending to assume we've never driven a car with said transmission, because if we did, how could we ever decide a 6MT was better? Maybe the correct approach is that YOU feel satisfied with the third pedal missing, but try to understand that no amount of speed, technology, etc. will ever make up for the loss of tactile sensation I get from throwing a car into a gear and stomping on the clutch pedal (makes me want to drive right now, actually).

Lastly, an argument can be made that technology is always improving and that dinosaurs like me are a dying breed. Frankly, I don't give a crap. I still order cars without navigation. I'm interested in a sense of connectedness more than a good stereo, comfort, or anything else. As long as there are people like me around, there will always be a need for the 6MT.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 06:33 AM   #135
Jonjt
Lieutenant
23
Rep
508
Posts

Drives: 09 E92 335i M-sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I think you and I might have different definitions of what "traffic" is certainly what heavy traffic is. Heavy traffic stretches from Tijuana to Ventura County including everything in between for hours in the morning, hours in the evening and sometimes all day on the weekends. When it comes to this kind of stop and go traffic the DCT is 95% as good as the best automatic. Why you'd want to bother with a MT in such a scenario is a bit beyond belief to me. Of course, to each their own...
I live in the NYC area. Taking 6 hours to cross the city isn't unusual. On bad days, when there is an accident, bad weather or construction, it can take hours just to advance a few miles.


I don't drive any appreciable distances towards or across the city, unless I'm driving at night. Otherwise, I drive the automatic beater.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 07:33 AM   #136
Pure
Captain
Pure's Avatar
United_States
56
Rep
758
Posts

Drives: 328i EB , RR Ghost Black D
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: DF (North America)

iTrader: (0)

Day approaches...
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 07:41 AM   #137
sward
Lieutenant
sward's Avatar
Sweden
284
Rep
515
Posts

Drives: X5M Competition
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM3S View Post
I think the main thing manual drivers like about 6MT is bragging that they drive a 6MT. Just one big insecure group of men.
LOL. You must be American. In Europe people brag they have an automatic, because it is a (costly) option. Everyone has been driving MT for the past 50 years here, including women.
Exactly. In Europe everybody knows how to drive a stick and it feels low end if you're in a car with MT.

I'm glad the M3 doesn't have auto because its bad for the car but DCT is the best if both worlds even though it costs more than 5k $.
__________________
/Fredrik Swärd
X5M Competition -20 (F95)
Sold: X5 M50d -19 (G05), X5 M50d -17 (F15), X5 M50d -14 (F15), 116d -13 (F20), X5 3.0D -10 (E70), M3 -10 (E93), 320DX -10 (E91), 320D M -08 (E91), X3 3.0D -07 (E83), 335 -07 (E92), 325 -05 (E90), 320 M -02 (E46), 318 M -00 (E46), 320 CiA -93 (E36), 318 -89 (E30)
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 08:04 AM   #138
Kagan1905
New Member
Germany
3
Rep
22
Posts

Drives: BMW E90 Sedan, 320i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Munich, GER

iTrader: (0)

Saw the Sedan M3 yesterday rolling out of the Plant towards to the BMW Welt. Unfortunately he was gone until I unlocked my iPhone to take a Photo :/

The sound in real was good, i liked it a lot. The car was black with camo bottom. Excited to see it again
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #139
BRAISKI
Colonel
BRAISKI's Avatar
Canada
104
Rep
2,517
Posts

Drives: '11 335xi e92 M-Pak
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: GTA/KW, Canada

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335xi  [3.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timore View Post
Would be a sad day in bmw history if they did away with a MT... That's not gonna happen. Who cares if DCT is a fraction of a second faster. Very few buyers will be using them for racing purposes anyway, can't beat the feel of a good old clutch.
Exactly but some ppl like to brag that! You see a good amount of M owners that NEVER been to track, heck even people with 335s that has tons of performance mods and never been to a track. In the end its just more bragging rights.

If I do want an automatic and yes DCT is good option but comparing DCT or manual is just not the same for not racing. Not talking about taking the car to the track once a year lol.

I personally will always get the manual and never DCT unless I race professionally. One of the things that I was turn off by the C63.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 08:45 AM   #140
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
6466
Rep
18,941
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I wouldn't own a car that did not have a dual clutch option.
I doubt I will ever go back to a manual transmission, but I don't necessarily demand DCT. As long as the car lets me select the gear ratios via paddles, I will consider it. But, yes, it has to get the job done quickly, or you lose much of the benefit of removing manual clutch operation from the process in the first place.

So I would be willing to give the the ZF8 or other similar state of the art transmissions a try, such as Mercedes MCT 7 Speed. But, although I have not driven a Corvette, the fact that they carried over the tired old-school Hydramatic to the shiny new model is a real downer. It's killing my buzz from this C7 high that everyone seems to be riding.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 09:32 AM   #141
E31BMW
Major
E31BMW's Avatar
United_States
69
Rep
1,164
Posts

Drives: Cars!
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NYC

iTrader: (28)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I guess I can never resist this topic...
  1. A DCT is not an automatic, it is automatable.
  2. The design, engineering, construction and most importantly the FEEL of the DCT is like a manual. I think most (or certainly at least many) who criticize DCT have not driven an M3 through the gears in S5 mode shifting at redline.
  3. When you have the DCT in manual mode, it simply is not an automatic, you choose every single shift up and down, except those downshifts while slowing that prevent an engine stall.
  4. DCT in manual mode is very involving and satisfying. You still shift, just on the steering wheel rather than on the tranny tunnel. Oh wait, you can do that too. Who cares about the clutch pedal...
  5. I seriously applaud Porsche for their decision for PDK (dual clutch) only for the hardcore GT3. Its the best choice by far because of it performance while allowing full manual control over shifting. I wish BMW had the balls to do that same. Less expensive DCTs would be one result.
  6. Shifting a traditional manual is clearly not the only way to be involved with and in touch with ones driving. Do you think F1 folks miss the clutch pedal or need to be "more involved"... There is plenty left to do in high performance driving other than worry about the clutch pedal.
I too cannot resist a discussion based on empirical accounts that ties into preference. I have not driven the DCT m3, but have driven countless fast cars with paddles, and some with dual clutch systems. My observation is based on my experiences and preference, therefore it cannot be wrong or right, but rather

The feel of a DCT is not in the same universe as a manual, and I defy anyone to shift through the gears with a manual, redline every gear, and then conclude that a DCT is more fun. I am under the impression that many people who feel as if DCT is more fun have not experienced the joy of being responsible for gear selection, and not when the computer tells you it approves your selection of gear, OR have no clue how to drive stick / lack the experience of unlocking the full potential of driving stick.

A DCT is more fun than a conventional aggressive automatic transmission, but it differs in that it gives you the option to digitally shift gears. This classification is meaningless when considering the better of the two or the more preferred of the two.

A DCT is faster and more fuel efficient than a manual, but this is not indicative of it being more enjoyable to drive. Getting better lap times and corner exit / entry speed may be important for the .3 percent of people that track their beasts, but it, in no foreseeable way, elicits more excitement or driver involvement than a manual. You mention formula 1… you are clearly missing the goal of F1, which is lap times, not driver enjoyment. We manual drivers don’t drive around “worrying” about clutch pedal, as we know how to drive/shift.

Your contention merely states that “just because I can control the gear shifts, it is just as fun as manual”. The digital feeling of flipping a paddle in, no way, is more tactile than shifting a manual, nor is it more fun.

It does not give feedback, it is not visceral, and not more enjoyable. It does not elicit more driver involvement, and only shifts gears based on your input, as well as the computer’s approval.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 09:45 AM   #142
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
6466
Rep
18,941
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

So I think maybe the Autoblog article was a Trojan Horse to see how many transmission debates they could set off 'round the net.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 09:54 AM   #143
rave426
Oh Hai
19
Rep
309
Posts

Drives: Cayman GT4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

I really hope its false, but the pictures in the OP can't prove it.

If you recall, there was also a prototype GT3 with a MT. There were pics and videos as well.

I really hope there is a MT though
__________________
BMW don't screw up the M3. K
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:12 AM   #144
rave426
Oh Hai
19
Rep
309
Posts

Drives: Cayman GT4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG3356MT View Post
Nice article. Screw the manual. Its old technology to me. I'm done with it.
Because new technology is what makes cars fun.


Well guys, might as well toss out the good old McLaren F1, F50, Ferrari GTO, GT40 and others...... old tech farts surely aren't as fun as a GTR, MP4, or 458...
__________________
BMW don't screw up the M3. K
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:14 AM   #145
rave426
Oh Hai
19
Rep
309
Posts

Drives: Cayman GT4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I guess I can never resist this topic...
  1. A DCT is not an automatic, it is automatable.
  2. The design, engineering, construction and most importantly the FEEL of the DCT is like a manual. I think most (or certainly at least many) who criticize DCT have not driven an M3 through the gears in S5 mode shifting at redline.
  3. When you have the DCT in manual mode, it simply is not an automatic, you choose every single shift up and down, except those downshifts while slowing that prevent an engine stall.
  4. DCT in manual mode is very involving and satisfying. You still shift, just on the steering wheel rather than on the tranny tunnel. Oh wait, you can do that too. Who cares about the clutch pedal...
  5. I seriously applaud Porsche for their decision for PDK (dual clutch) only for the hardcore GT3. Its the best choice by far because of it performance while allowing full manual control over shifting. I wish BMW had the balls to do that same. Less expensive DCTs would be one result.
  6. Shifting a traditional manual is clearly not the only way to be involved with and in touch with ones driving. Do you think F1 folks miss the clutch pedal or need to be "more involved"... There is plenty left to do in high performance driving other than worry about the clutch pedal.

Who gave you the too sweet kool-aid?

A DCT can shift automaticaly. Its an automatic. It doesnt have a torque converter, but its def an automatic transmission.

And the bold
__________________
BMW don't screw up the M3. K
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:15 AM   #146
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
6466
Rep
18,941
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Nothing is 100% guaranteed until we have official specs, sure.

My understanding in the case with the GT3 is that prevailing belief (perhaps even word from Porsche) was always that they were testing both in order to determine which one (and only one) would make production.

For BMW, although there has even been comments from officials that they put the MT in the M5 only as a nod to pressure from the US market, they are absolutely still committed to manual transmissions for the current generation of vehicles at least.

We will see what happens when the G generation of cars hits in a few years time, starting with the new 5 (7 hasn't had a manual for quite some time now). We probably won't lose the MT from every single model in one generation, but in all liklihood it will start with the 5 first when it does start. Already the 550 has been hit, in fact. Smaller M cars will probably be the last to be effected - M4, M3, M2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rave426 View Post
I really hope its false, but the pictures in the OP can't prove it.

If you recall, there was also a prototype GT3 with a MT. There were pics and videos as well.

I really hope there is a MT though
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:27 AM   #147
Randy M
First Lieutenant
Randy M's Avatar
25
Rep
358
Posts

Drives: 2013 B302 LS
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 'Merika

iTrader: (0)

It makes all the sense in the world that Porsche's new GT3 is PDK only as the emphasis is the utmost performance possible for that particular model. If a potential owner's priority is not the pinnacle of performance than a manual transmission can be had in a lesser model. This is an example of German logic so I wouldn't be surprised if the M4 is offered DCT only.
__________________
'11 Porsche GT3 (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:30 AM   #148
Jason
Administrator
Jason's Avatar
United_States
27201
Rep
20,401
Posts

Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
For BMW, although there has even been comments from officials that they put the MT in the M5 only as a nod to pressure from the US market, they are absolutely still committed to manual transmissions for the current generation of vehicles at least.
+1

I forgot to reference this yesterday in the original article. As recently as a year ago, BMW M's head of engineering Albert Biermann made this statement:

"The M3 needs to have a stick shift. It will always have a stick shift." [full statement]

While I think the M3 may one day (in future generations) lose stick shift, if Biermann is making this statement with the F80 M3 / F82 M4 development already well underway (by the time of the statement), I'd think that's a pretty solid statement we can bank on... in addition to all the other evidence.
__________________
Check on the Latest BMW News
Become a fan of Bimmerpost Facebook
Follow us on Bimmerpost Twitter
Subscribe to Bimmerpost Youtube Channel
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:34 AM   #149
rave426
Oh Hai
19
Rep
309
Posts

Drives: Cayman GT4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Why the MT rule:



__________________
BMW don't screw up the M3. K
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:39 AM   #150
rave426
Oh Hai
19
Rep
309
Posts

Drives: Cayman GT4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
+1

I forgot to reference this yesterday in the original article. As recently as a year ago, BMW M's head of engineering Albert Biermann made this statement:

"The M3 needs to have a stick shift. It will always have a stick shift." [full statement]

While I think the M3 may one day (in future generations) lose stick shift, if Biermann is making this statement with the F80 M3 / F82 M4 development already well underway (by the time of the statement), I'd think that's a pretty solid statement we can bank on... in addition to all the other evidence.
I agree and think the new M3/4 will have a MT....but BMW's quotes no longer comfort me.

I remember their quotes about not having M trucks. Well we see where that has gotten us.

The only thing that matters to me is MT, RWD, and the stable power at the top of the rev range. I had a N54 335i, and the drop in power after 6000 annoyed the hell out of me. That should NOT be a characteristic of an M.
__________________
BMW don't screw up the M3. K
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:45 AM   #151
Jason
Administrator
Jason's Avatar
United_States
27201
Rep
20,401
Posts

Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rave426 View Post
I agree and think the new M3/4 will have a MT....but BMW's quotes no longer comfort me.

I remember their quotes about not having M trucks. Well we see where that has gotten us.

The only thing that matters to me is MT, RWD, and the stable power at the top of the rev range. I had a N54 335i, and the drop in power after 6000 annoyed the hell out of me. That should NOT be a characteristic of an M.
Agreed. I don't take much stock in these types of statements for the long-haul, but it should be telling for the current generation.

In any case, there will be stick shift manual for the upcoming M3/M4, no questions.
__________________
Check on the Latest BMW News
Become a fan of Bimmerpost Facebook
Follow us on Bimmerpost Twitter
Subscribe to Bimmerpost Youtube Channel
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:53 AM   #152
i001947
Captain
i001947's Avatar
23
Rep
691
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Why in this "day and age" would anybody still want a manual knowing how well the DCT works?
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 10:54 AM   #153
ChrisK
Major General
ChrisK's Avatar
United_States
3934
Rep
7,384
Posts

Drives: '19 M2C
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland (West)

iTrader: (7)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I wonder if these are the same clowns who said that a V8 or larger engine can be fitted into the i8? It can't.
^
__________________
www.ReTuneTheDeTune.com
2019 M2 Competition (Sunset Orange)
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 11:11 AM   #154
FogCityM3
Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
482
Rep
2,400
Posts

Drives: M3 (E90) & Porsche GT3 RS
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

Agree..let's not forget that a lot of us have tried both DCT and MT and had an open mind before we bought and made a decision...no right or wrong answer as to what gives a person a certain subjective feeling. Also, people shouldn't automatically assume that BMW's product people/culture (which can at times be way over-engineering focused) knows what's best for you or what your "right" emotional reaction with regard to a certain innovation. eg, "active sound"...no one could probably tell the difference as far as sound waves are concerned, but just knowing that's the case is an issue for a lot of people and doesn't make it feel right.

Also for the guys who mentioned stuff about how great auto/DCT is during hours and hours of bumper to bumper traffic, If I were faced with that prospect, forget about the transmission, I'd just be outright miserable and focus on a more convenient home location vs the transmission in my car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonasaurus View Post
For the record have driven DCT be it not extensively, amazing kit no issue with it whatsoever. Have driven MT for the last 12 years but not hung up on pride or any sort of underlying inferiority complex so that driving MT makes me feel like a ‘better’ driver. To your point that with DCT you are able to focus on turn-in and throttle application, best line etc I agree with and has its merits, but incorporating changing gears, rev matching when downshifting etc isn’t that all just part of the experience and mental/physical complexity that makes driving enjoyable and so challenging? If you’re after the quickest lap at a track then yes can’t disagree but not necessarily the case in this context of discussion.

The argument of what part of the mechanical process can be removed before it starts detracting from the driving experience is a tough question. Need to define driving experience and the aspects of what make that up, there are going to be individualistic parts to it I’m guessing. Some may believe they are more of a purist hence may regard certain parts of the driving process more important than others. No right or wrong to it just opinions.

No doubt DCT/PDK are slowly being phased out as the case with the Lambos/Fezzas, that is evident with the M3 sales numbers perhaps post F80/82 era, so unless there was a massive upsurge in MT sales would be hard to see them lasting a lot longer. How long will I try ‘resist’? In the short term to medium term as far as a weekend car goes (which my E90 M3 is most of the time given I live in London) would like to keep it MT, if I need to be driving everyday in traffic I’m sure I’ll be considering some form of an automatic gearbox.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2014 bmw m3, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 engine, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m3 weight, 2014 m4 dtm, 2014 m4 engine, 2014 m4 weight, 2015 bmw m3, 2015 bmw m4, 2015 m3, 2015 m3 engine, 2015 m4, 2015 m4 engine, 2015 m4 weight, bmw dtm, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 s55, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f82 m4 s55, bmw f82 m4 video, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m3 carbon fiber roof, bmw m3 forum, bmw m3 forums, bmw m3 s55, bmw m3 s55 engine, bmw m4, bmw m4 concept, bmw m4 concept coupe, bmw m4 concept debut, bmw m4 concept reveal, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe concept, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 coupe video, bmw m4 coupe videos, bmw m4 debut, bmw m4 dtm, bmw m4 dtm car, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, bmw m4 manual, bmw m4 manual transmission, bmw m4 reveal

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST