VIBE Motorsports
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-22-2013, 11:24 AM   #155
Tacoma
Lieutenant
403
Rep
529
Posts

Drives: BMW's for 25+ years
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated R View Post
Not to mention resale. How many DCT's to manual's chosen by purchasers is it again? Something like 85/15? So you go to sell your manual and the potential pool of buyers is much lower.
It could be the opposite. If 9 of 10 M3's available in the market are DCT's and you're selling the only one with Manual, then yours could sell faster due to lack of choice. You're special!


Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I guess I can never resist this topic...
  1. A DCT is not an automatic, it is automatable.
  2. The design, engineering, construction and most importantly the FEEL of the DCT is like a manual. I think most (or certainly at least many) who criticize DCT have not driven an M3 through the gears in S5 mode shifting at redline.
  3. When you have the DCT in manual mode, it simply is not an automatic, you choose every single shift up and down, except those downshifts while slowing that prevent an engine stall.
  4. DCT in manual mode is very involving and satisfying. You still shift, just on the steering wheel rather than on the tranny tunnel. Oh wait, you can do that too. Who cares about the clutch pedal...
  5. I seriously applaud Porsche for their decision for PDK (dual clutch) only for the hardcore GT3. Its the best choice by far because of it performance while allowing full manual control over shifting. I wish BMW had the balls to do that same. Less expensive DCTs would be one result.
  6. Shifting a traditional manual is clearly not the only way to be involved with and in touch with ones driving. Do you think F1 folks miss the clutch pedal or need to be "more involved"... There is plenty left to do in high performance driving other than worry about the clutch pedal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
Who cares what it's name is exactly ? The point is that you don't have a clutch nor stick anymore, and the car shifts gears for you, so people call that an automatic.
...
Actually the BMW DCT is a dual-clutch transmission. The term automatic transmission is associated with use of a torque converter which the DCT does not have. The DCT is more of an automatic or automated manual. It's not about the name, it's about how the transmission works.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 11:25 AM   #156
mud hen medic
Enlisted Member
6
Rep
38
Posts

Drives: 2002 Toyota Celica GTS
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuggerat89 View Post
When I walk across a parking lot to go into a store or the mall, and I spot a BMW, I make it a point to walk over and see what type of gearbox it has. Nine times out of ten, it's an auto or DCT and I think to myself, what a loser.

Call me childish, call me close minded, call me what you want. IMO, if you don't drive a manual gearbox, if you don't suffer with the car, if you don't feel what the car is doing, and make decisions for the car -- like when to clutch in, when to feather, when to rev match, then you aren't a real enthusiast. And you aren't one because you don't want to be bothered with the things that require effort, diligence, and skill to perfect. You just want to get where ever it is you're going and look the part when you pull into the parking lot.

Obviously my opinion is harsh and one sided, and I've grossly generalized. But, that's how I feel, and it is what it is.

If BMW leaves behind the manual transmission I will just buy used, older model BMW's until I can no longer drive.
I'm the exact same way.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 11:41 AM   #157
i001947
Captain
i001947's Avatar
23
Rep
691
Posts

Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mud hen medic View Post
I'm the exact same way.
Don't hate, some people just rather have the option of having their hand on another kind of "stick" while they drive.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 12:46 PM   #158
JasonCSU
Colonel
United_States
629
Rep
2,515
Posts

Drives: '08 135i, '88 325is
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1988 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by i001947 View Post
Why in this "day and age" would anybody still want a manual knowing how well the DCT works?
Read the responses in the thread as to why many of us still prefer traditional manuals. We know the DCT is a technologically superior transmission, but that doesn't mean we feel we should have to choose it. I'm also still curious on how the long term reliability and maintenance costs will work out for the dual clutch transmissions.
__________________
Delivered in Munich, broken in on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 01:01 PM   #159
rave426
Oh Hai
19
Rep
309
Posts

Drives: Cayman GT4
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by i001947 View Post
Don't hate, some people just rather have the option of having their hand on another kind of "stick" while they drive.
Wait..what exactly is going on here?
__________________
BMW don't screw up the M3. K
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 02:51 PM   #160
zuggerat89
Still waiting...
zuggerat89's Avatar
United_States
19
Rep
887
Posts

Drives: OGV
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Monmouth County, NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rave426
Quote:
Originally Posted by i001947 View Post
Don't hate, some people just rather have the option of having their hand on another kind of "stick" while they drive.
Wait..what exactly is going on here?
Hahahahaha
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 03:31 PM   #161
Remonster
Major
United_States
560
Rep
1,475
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 Avus Blue
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by i001947 View Post
Why in this "day and age" would anybody still want a manual knowing how well the DCT works?
It doesn't matter how well it works, I've had my DCT for about a year now and it's just so boring compared to the three manual BMWs I've had even though the 335is itself is such a sweet car.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 03:40 PM   #162
AtlantaDude
Just enjoying my time
AtlantaDude's Avatar
United_States
115
Rep
852
Posts

Drives: 2007 BMW E92 335i - Sold
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (0)

I have a 6MT 335i... I couldn't care less what anyone else drives. We should be driving whatever makes us happy. This whole bullshit "You're a lesser man because of blah blah blah" is just that... bullshit.. We own BMWs, and are part of the forums, so we're all pretty close in enthusiasm levels so far. So why does it even matter? BMW isn't going to get rid of the MT anytime soon. So this is another mute issue.

I'm use to this kind of clumsy, short minded, hair balled attitudes from low rider community, I didn't expect it here. Wishful thinking I guess.

Now, on to the point of this thread..... I hope they (M3/M4) sound better in real life. They probably do, but in reality, if you have the money to buy one, you're most likely going to put an exhaust on the damned thing anyways. Personally, I still want to know what the engine is going to be. I can work with the exhaust (to an extent) from there.
__________________
Tesla Owner - Missing the noise of driving....

If speed is death, then buy a Honda and live forever
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 03:56 PM   #163
swagon
Major General
swagon's Avatar
No_Country
5937
Rep
5,321
Posts

Drives: F80 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You sir are completely incorrect on this. A slushbox is a traditional automatic transmission with both planetary gears and more importantly a torque converter that uses fluid coupling rather than direct clutch coupling to gradually engage the power to the wheels. The feeling of disconnectedness (and smoothness) that comes from this is the reason they are called slushboxes. This is not what DCT is, not how it works and not how it feels, period.
Does DCT have two pedals? Does it have D mode? Yes and yes, so it is an automatic transmission. No matter how many clutches it has, no matter what convertor it has and no matter whatnot. It still can shift automatically, so it is an automatic transmission. Both transmissions have their pros and cons, but personally, I'd take the manual.

Heel-toe > clicking the paddles.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 04:04 PM   #164
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
494
Rep
10,408
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
Does DCT have two pedals? Does it have D mode? Yes and yes, so it is an automatic transmission. No matter how many clutches it has, no matter what convertor it has and no matter whatnot. It still can shift automatically, so it is an automatic transmission. Both transmissions have their pros and cons, but personally, I'd take the manual.

Heel-toe > clicking the paddles.
You are entitled to your opinion but calling it an automatic is neither the most accurate, technically correct nor informative term. Why not strive for the most accurate word choice?

Heel-toe pride level > DCT pride level
DCT performance >> Human performance
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 04:12 PM   #165
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
494
Rep
10,408
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
You make a compelling argument. I, like most reasonably informed people here, would agree that DCT is faster, but I'm still not convinced it is more engaging. There is something to be said about full control of the car. Turn off the traction control/DSC with a manual, and it's pretty much you and the road. Can never do that with DCT/auto.

For example, many times, I like to directly go from 2nd to 4th or 5th. Or I coast in neutral. I don't want to have to click gears to go from 2 to 5. I want full control. That is full engagement. Also, I want to feel what gear I am in with my hands, not have to look down to see what gear I am in.
Traction control off in a DCT is just as much fun as traction control off in a MT. The ability to trivially nail wheel spinning "power shifts" with the DCT in S5/S6 is quite rewarding.

DCT can skip intermediate gears with fast paddle/stick actuation.

DCT can force neutral. But there is never a really good reason to do so.

If you have to look at your MT to see what gear you are in, you probably need a lot more MT experience... Just sayin'
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 04:16 PM   #166
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
494
Rep
10,408
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonasaurus View Post
For the record have driven DCT be it not extensively, amazing kit no issue with it whatsoever. Have driven MT for the last 12 years but not hung up on pride or any sort of underlying inferiority complex so that driving MT makes me feel like a Ďbetterí driver. To your point that with DCT you are able to focus on turn-in and throttle application, best line etc I agree with and has its merits, but incorporating changing gears, rev matching when downshifting etc isnít that all just part of the experience and mental/physical complexity that makes driving enjoyable and so challenging? If youíre after the quickest lap at a track then yes canít disagree but not necessarily the case in this context of discussion.

The argument of what part of the mechanical process can be removed before it starts detracting from the driving experience is a tough question. Need to define driving experience and the aspects of what make that up, there are going to be individualistic parts to it Iím guessing. Some may believe they are more of a purist hence may regard certain parts of the driving process more important than others. No right or wrong to it just opinions.

No doubt DCT/PDK are slowly being phased out as the case with the Lambos/Fezzas, that is evident with the M3 sales numbers perhaps post F80/82 era, so unless there was a massive upsurge in MT sales would be hard to see them lasting a lot longer. How long will I try Ďresistí? In the short term to medium term as far as a weekend car goes (which my E90 M3 is most of the time given I live in London) would like to keep it MT, if I need to be driving everyday in traffic Iím sure Iíll be considering some form of an automatic gearbox.
Excellent post. I especially like to ponder the bold point. As firm as I am in my pro-DCT sentiments I can not deny that some elements of the purity and experience of driving are lost as technology both mechanical, electrical and digital evolve. You are clearly one who has thought through this issue with more introspection than the majority of knee-jerk DCT bashers. Again many probably haven't even driven a dual clutch hard.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 04:17 PM   #167
Romo
Lieutenant Colonel
Romo's Avatar
Netherlands
1112
Rep
1,600
Posts

Drives: HP4C M2CS HS DCT 718GT4 slot
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Netherlands

iTrader: (0)

Driven a E92 M3 6 MT I can say it was the wrong choice.

The M-DCT with shorter gearing was a much better ride then the too long geared 6MT

It`s a good thing BMW let the customers decide what they think is right for their way of driving fun.

I only do hope this time BMW does a better job on the M4 6MT

Either way, choose your poison But choose wisely
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 05:59 PM   #168
ZIPNBYE
Let's save military ranks for those who earn it!
ZIPNBYE's Avatar
Canada
38
Rep
1,161
Posts

Drives: ...on the Ragged Edge
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
Seems that BMW took note of the goings-on on the Internet:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/futur...l-transmission
__________________
Richard
2013 BMW M3 Individual -- Fire Orange (sold)
2013 BMW X1 xDrive35i M-Sport -- Valencia Orange (sold)
2011 BMW 1-series M Coupe (#205/220) -- Valencia Orange (sold)
2009 BMW 135i M-Sport Coupe -- Space Grey (sold)
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 06:17 PM   #169
hotsoup
New Member
0
Rep
17
Posts

Drives: R8
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Traction control off in a DCT is just as much fun as traction control off in a MT. The ability to trivially nail wheel spinning "power shifts" with the DCT in S5/S6 is quite rewarding.

DCT can skip intermediate gears with fast paddle/stick actuation.

DCT can force neutral. But there is never a really good reason to do so.

If you have to look at your MT to see what gear you are in, you probably need a lot more MT experience... Just sayin'
I'm not in either the DCT or the manual camp, but I just have a couple questions with regard to the DCT, after having test-driven an M3 w/ DCT:

1) When I'm driving around in 2nd or 3rd gear and I want to coast to a red light, what I would normally do in a manual is shift to neutral and coast. With DCT, do I have to upshift until I stop feeling the engine braking? I ask this because the ride was super-harsh for me (esp. not being used to DCT) on low gear driving around the city.

2) On a DCT, if you downshift near the redline (say, redlining at 4 and then accidentally downshifting), what happens?
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 06:25 PM   #170
chmura
Colonel
chmura's Avatar
1367
Rep
2,309
Posts

Drives: 2019 M2 Competition
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Orange County, California

iTrader: (1)

I do not know why everyone is complaining about the M4 exhaust note. When I got my e90 M3 the exhaust was whisper quiet! The only sound that I was hearing was the engine scream which was fantastic. It was a let down that's for sure with the oem stock exhaust. So I quickly added an exhaust and the sound came alive on my brand new M3.

In the videos the M4 exhaust sounds louder than the oem stock e9x M3 exhaust for sure. With going aftermarket this is not an issue.

Not sure why people are bashing this car. At least you can hear the M4 exhaust. In my M3 I could not hear anything with the windows down until I went after market.
__________________
2019 M2 Competition- October 2, 2018 ED
2011 BMW M3 Sedan Alpine White
Picked up via ED 9/27/2011 & Redelivered 11/23/2011 **SOLD**
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 06:51 PM   #171
boramkiv
Enlisted Member
9
Rep
43
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Well let me add my two cents in an effort to keep the traditional manuals around until the automobile is dead.
Save the manuals!!
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 07:10 PM   #172
hwelvaar
Major
Belgium
101
Rep
1,141
Posts

Drives: BMW M135i MT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by i001947 View Post
Why in this "day and age" would anybody still want a manual knowing how well the DCT works?
For christ sake, did you read the thread ?
Why don't you buy a Google car ? Their car does it all for you: steering, braking, gear shifting.
It works really well so why would anybody still want a car which you have to drive yourself ?

Get my point ?
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 07:37 PM   #173
Thurman Murch
Lieutenant
Seychelles
61
Rep
500
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Island in the sun

iTrader: (0)

The M-DCT M3 still has a smaller brake pedal than a 335is with DCT.. the M-DCT just has an invisible third pedal

I do think manual will be tbe best choice for the new triple turbo engine... just hope it has better gearing
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 07:57 PM   #174
FogCityM3
Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
482
Rep
2,400
Posts

Drives: M3 (E90) & Porsche GT3 RS
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

Funny how the automotive rags still call the DCT an "auto". Sometimes perception = reality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZIPNBYE View Post
Seems that BMW took note of the goings-on on the Internet:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/futur...l-transmission
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 08:27 PM   #175
Jadar
Dejan
Jadar's Avatar
Serbia
1668
Rep
4,187
Posts

Drives: 2018 Audi S3
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Michigan Ave.

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
I love the way the M3 looks. I know the M4 is the new thing, but the arches in the rear to me just look so amazing with 4 doors.

Does sound a bit e46 m3 though.
__________________
FBO-PS1 and stuff
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2013, 09:36 PM   #176
thebmw
Post Advisor
thebmw's Avatar
727
Rep
1,384
Posts

Drives: Many BMWs and SRTs
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
If you have to look at your MT to see what gear you are in, you probably need a lot more MT experience... Just sayin'
You miss read my statement. I DON'T have to look in a MT. You do have to look with a DCT.

Seriously, to say that the DCT can do almost what a MT can do in terms of skipping gears and burnouts is such a wannabe statement. And I do like to pop it in neutral when I'm coasting for 1/4 mile. Why waste gas?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2014 bmw m3, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 engine, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m3 weight, 2014 m4 dtm, 2014 m4 engine, 2014 m4 weight, 2015 bmw m3, 2015 bmw m4, 2015 m3, 2015 m3 engine, 2015 m4, 2015 m4 engine, 2015 m4 weight, bmw dtm, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 s55, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f82 m4 s55, bmw f82 m4 video, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m3 carbon fiber roof, bmw m3 forum, bmw m3 forums, bmw m3 s55, bmw m3 s55 engine, bmw m4, bmw m4 concept, bmw m4 concept coupe, bmw m4 concept debut, bmw m4 concept reveal, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe concept, bmw m4 coupe forum, bmw m4 coupe video, bmw m4 coupe videos, bmw m4 debut, bmw m4 dtm, bmw m4 dtm car, bmw m4 forum, bmw m4 forums, bmw m4 manual, bmw m4 manual transmission, bmw m4 reveal

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:59 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST