What’s going on with GTS prices?

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by Miamistv

I love the car, but if it is announced that only so many will be produced and delivered to the US, then it is wrong for those numbers to be ignored. BMW made a big deal about the production and allocation and now it seems that many dealers are offering deep discounts because of the extra units that were allocated. The market is only so large for a specialty car such as this because of the practicality issues.

Agree with you on this. Had they stuck to the 700 units, all used ones would be selling over MSRP by now. Especially since they dumped all the extra ones on the US market.
Porsche just did the same thing with the 911R (originally priced around $190,000). Supposedly the last one of a kind and some of them sold “used” for up to $1 Million. Porsche just came up with the 911GT3 4.0 Manual (basically the same driving experience) and within weeks prices went down to less than $400,000 on the 911R. Whoever paid close to 7 figures for those must be pissed. Last update, there is a new 911R for sale for less than $380,000.
I don’t feel sorry for anyone trying to flip cars though. Those cars are made to be enjoyed.

[hi_officer]

Originally Posted by Miamistv

I love the car, but if it is announced that only so many will be produced and delivered to the US, then it is wrong for those numbers to be ignored. BMW made a big deal about the production and allocation and now it seems that many dealers are offering deep discounts because of the extra units that were allocated. The market is only so large for a specialty car such as this because of the practicality issues.

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Agree with you on this. Had they stuck to the 700 units, all used ones would be selling over MSRP by now. Especially since they dumped all the extra ones on the US market.
Porsche just did the same thing with the 911R (originally priced around $190,000). Supposedly the last one of a kind and some of them sold (used) for up to $800,000. Porsche just came up with the 911GT3 4.0 Manual (basically the same driving experience) and within weeks prices went down to less than $400,000 on the 911R. Whoever paid close to 7 figures for those must be pissed.
I don’t feel sorry for all the cars flippers though. Those cars are made to be enjoyed.

I don't know but it seems like wishful thinking to think that dropping 100 more cars in a country of 300 million people is the reason the GTS is selling below msrp as opposed to selling over msrp.

Seems like it's attributed to other things such as the price vs. normal M4, price of competitors' cars, lackluster journo reviews, run of mill engine, and decreased practicality. Guess we'll never know.

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by hi_officer

I don't know but it seems like wishful thinking to think that dropping 100 more cars in a country of 300 million people is the reason the GTS is selling below msrp as opposed to selling over msrp.

Seems like it's attributed to other things such as the price vs. normal M4, price of competitors' cars, lackluster journo reviews, run of mill engine, and decreased practicality. Guess we'll never know.

My point is we would not even be having this discussion if they had stuck to the original number. All of BMW M4gts US production had been sold out through vouchers by this time a year ago in November/December. None were sitting at dealers.
Whatever is for sale now (24 new ones, 32 used, all sitting at dealers except for one or 2 private owners) comes from the extra 100 dumped on dealers in January.

[IrvineTim]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

My point is we would not even be having this discussion if they had stuck to the original number. All of BMW M4gts US production had been sold out through vouchers by this time a year ago in November/December. None were sitting at dealers.
Whatever is for sale now (24 new ones, 32 used, all sitting at dealers except for one or 2 private owners) comes from the extra 100 dumped on dealers in January.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the extra 100 cars. Look at prices for collector cars. 100 additional cars would not have this large of an impact for such a new car. Fact is, the car was overpriced from the get go. After people learned what the car was, the market dictated what the car is really worth, regardless of whether it is new or used. People drank the BMW M4GTS KOOL AID., now you have to suck it up and stop whining.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Had they stuck to the 700 units, all used ones would be selling over MSRP by now.

I think it's great that you consistently and ferociously defend the car you love (really, I do). But your statement above is delusional. 100 cars comes nowhere near explaining the difference between current market at sub-100K and your fantasy market at over MSRP.

[hi_officer]

Originally Posted by kepler

I think it's great that you consistently and ferociously defend the car you love (really, I do). But your statement above is delusional. 100 cars comes nowhere near explaining the difference between current market at sub-100K and your fantasy market at over MSRP.

100% correct.

And even if, by a miracle, +100 cars destroyed the market, it just goes to show you that there weren't 100 more people out there that value the GTS the same way the first 700 do.

[Bimmer6]

Typically it takes 10 to 20 years for cars to get back to MSRP or better when the market shows favor. The Porsche 4.0’s were selling at MSRP when launched like the 918, and the 4.0 400k to 500k and 918 1.5M or better. Those owners had no clue what they were buying, and looks like people want to buy a car that’s a sure bet ......I think that’s risky. Buy what you want to enjoy if you get lucky great. I have friends with these GTS’s parked with no miles ......it’s a hopped up M4 not a bad thing but drive it. BMW will make a new varient that will keep pressure on every car they make. Porsche guys gobbles up the last round of GT3’s thinking it’s the last NA motor, many were lucky to get at MSRP or drive the car two years free just because it’s a GT3. Trying to make money on a car is like day trading you lose more than you win on a long term basis. Buy what you want just don’t be first to market.

[John Tanglewood]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

Does anyone know if the roll cage is bolted or welded in? If I could get rear seats in this car it would be definitely worth it at the falling prices...

you wanna do WHAT?

[Miamistv]

I agree that the extra cars hurt the value. In Europe, except for Chris Harris comparing the car to an RS and more expensive cars, the review were good and the public is willing to pay more. In the US, the Motor Trend and some other reviews have hurt. I disagree with these review with the perspective that I have had behind the wheel and in comparison with other great cars. This is a specialty car that is not a great daily driver for most people. It is not good in traffic and is a very stiff ride. I am okay with that, although it is not my daily driver, but most people are not and want the extra rear seats. As far as the value compared to a regular M4, it is not the same car. I do not understand the double the price comments. Put ceramic brakes and other options on an M4 and the sticker price is a lot higher than a base M4. I have a 911 Turbo S which is a great daily driver. All 911s are basically the same look and interior. However, models with different engines and upgrades to the exterior and interior can bring 911 prices over $250,000.00. Any way, I guess my point is that 100 extra cars over fulfilled the initial demand. It is a lot to spend on an extra car for fun only and without practicality, especially a BMW. However, it was not overpriced for what one gets. Most people that have spent extensive time with one and have driven them hard understand their value.

[IrvineTim]

so we all agree that the GTS is over priced? And we all agree you paid too much if you paid msrp? Can we move on now and talk about something else, like say, the stock you bought that plummeted after you bought it?

[hi_officer]

This guy probably spent more on his vanity plate than gas for his GTS... 900 miles and still asking $1,000 over msrp

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...5323/overview/

[sterile stork]

Originally Posted by hi_officer

This guy probably spent more on his vanity plate than gas for his GTS... 900 miles and still asking $1,000 over msrp

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...5323/overview/

Yeah--it has to hurt trying to get out of one of these vehicles at the moment with the market prices being what they are.

[VCP]

As I look at the last 9 posts of which there are no owners and they are laying out the way it is...

[hi_officer]

Originally Posted by VCP

As I look at the last 9 posts of which there are no owners and they are laying out the way it is...

There are apparently no buyers out there either

In all fairness, this IS a thread about prices and not driving

[VCP]

Yes it is, and it seems the ones selling never drove them.

Originally Posted by hi_officer

There are apparently no buyers out there either

In all fairness, this IS a thread about prices and not driving

[hi_officer]

Originally Posted by VCP

Yes it is, and it seems the ones selling never drove them.

so what is the point of your comment? are you just frustrated that people that have never driven a GTS keep hounding its current market?

Should the only people commenting on the value of Tesla's stock be current owners of Tesla cars?

Like I said, we aren't discussing the merits of the GTS' performance, merely the price.

[VCP]

Carry on

Originally Posted by hi_officer

so what is the point of your comment? are you just frustrated that people that have never driven a GTS keep hounding its current market?

Should the only people commenting on the value of Tesla's stock be current owners of Tesla cars?

Like I said, we aren't discussing the merits of the GTS' performance, merely the price.

[IrvineTim]

if these were sky rocketing in value, there would be no thread about current market value

[grendel88]

Longtime BMW guy, I tried to buy one of these when they first came out, and my dealer would not sell one to me at MSRP so I forgot about it. Then all of the meh reviews and the extra cars hit the market. In reality, unlike a GT4, same price range, the GTS will be a hard car to move if you buy it and decide you need to move it a couple years. 991 GT3s are falling can be had for $130K now so there is even more pressure on these GTS on the market. I don't see how all of these cars on the market move. The last SF Bay Area dealer has had their GTS for almost a year and a half.

[Salespunk]

The funny thing is that there is an inverse relationship between early pricing of a car and long term value. Think about this list

1. Shelby Cobra - It took several years to sell the cars they built originally. They simply sat because they were too raw
2. Porsche RS America - Porsche could not give them away because why would anyone want to spend more for a car that has less equipment?
3. Porsche 918 - Please buy this car, if you do we will give you first access to any other car FOR LIFE!
4. BMW E30 M3 - Another car that sat on the lots for a long time when new. Even as recently as a few years ago you could buy a nice driver for $15K or less.
5. Ferrari F40's were selling for $1M+ when new and then dropped to $400k until about 7 or 8 years ago. Who would like the opportunity to buy one at $400K now?

This list could go on for a while. 20 years from now everyone will be kicking themselves because they didn't buy one when it was so cheap, can you believe the idiot reviewers didn't set the cars up before driving them back then, etc.

Value is a relative thing and it only matters if you want to sell today. All the people that bought these to flip are learning that prices are not always straight up on limited production cars and manufacturers have the right to build as many as they want. Same thing happened with the 2014/15 Camaro Z28 (which I believe will be very valuable 15 years from now). The first few people were paying over sticker at $90K+, now you can buy one for $40K with less than 1500 miles.

One last note, if BMW or Porsche keep production low and allow the over list price stupidity continue they are missing out on hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. It is horrible business for them not to produce these amazing cars up to the point of consumer demand at list price.

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by Salespunk

The funny thing is that there is an inverse relationship between early pricing of a car and long term value. Think about this list

1. Shelby Cobra - It took several years to sell the cars they built originally. They simply sat because they were too raw
2. Porsche RS America - Porsche could not give them away because why would anyone want to spend more for a car that has less equipment?
3. Porsche 918 - Please buy this car, if you do we will give you first access to any other car FOR LIFE!
4. BMW E30 M3 - Another car that sat on the lots for a long time when new. Even as recently as a few years ago you could buy a nice driver for $15K or less.
5. Ferrari F40's were selling for $1M+ when new and then dropped to $400k until about 7 or 8 years ago. Who would like the opportunity to buy one at $400K now?

This list could go on for a while. 20 years from now everyone will be kicking themselves because they didn't buy one when it was so cheap, can you believe the idiot reviewers didn't set the cars up before driving them back then, etc.

Value is a relative thing and it only matters if you want to sell today. All the people that bought these to flip are learning that prices are not always straight up on limited production cars and manufacturers have the right to build as many as they want. Same thing happened with the 2014/15 Camaro Z28 (which I believe will be very valuable 15 years from now). The first few people were paying over sticker at $90K+, now you can buy one for $40K with less than 1500 miles.

One last note, if BMW or Porsche keep production low and allow the over list price stupidity continue they are missing out on hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. It is horrible business for them not to produce these amazing cars up to the point of consumer demand at list price.

Very True. You forgot the M3 GTS that no one wanted in Europe just a few years ago. Asking price when it came out in 2010 was 138,000 Euros. Sat on lots for years. Now selling for $200,000 when you can find one.

[RingMeister01]

I would say that BMW is going to give up on this "GTS" model concept. It wasn't successful in that it brought a fresh image of sporting cars that satisfy new customers in a specific market. This was an important model for them in order to bring back some of that 80's - 90's BMW M models we love. They have been hanging on a thread for years on this fading image and now I think they are going to give it up and focus on hybrids and technology.

The current M4 GTS values accurately represent the success or lack of from this model. It basically appeals to the hopeful, nostalgic, loyal BMW customer... but not one else. No one cares for this car because there are so many better buys and better driving experiences to choose from.

If you own this car you should just enjoy driving it and not worry about values. Don't bother keeping low miles because it will not make a difference. Values will keep dropping until inflation catches up to reach msrp and then again you've still lost a great deal.