Another crankhub failure...

[SSR Performance]

Originally Posted by SickGTR

If they are really doing the shit they say before giving a car the CPO title, they should know. It's not about seeing the tune or anything like that. My good friend is a master tech for BMW ( travels all around the country ) All they do when investigating any type of major issue is check the log of the car and see what PSI you are hitting. So if stock is 18 and your banging 24, you are fucked. All these tunes that say undetectable means nothing. Those days are gone. The dealer can find out soooo much info when they dig in.

100% agreed.

Shah @ SSR Performance

[SSR Performance]

Originally Posted by Sherhart

This is true for tunes, but not JB4 since it intercepts the boost signal and tricks the car into thinking it is seeing stock boost levels. Not sure which one you're referring to here since both are on the car.

Jim

They will know if you have had a JB4 boosting above stock levels based on logs in the ECU files that you and I will never ever know about haha. Trust me BMW NA engineers have gone to great lengths to protect themselves based on the situations I have seen take place.

Shah @ SSR Performance

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by Sherhart

This is true for tunes, but not JB4 since it intercepts the boost signal and tricks the car into thinking it is seeing stock boost levels. Not sure which one you're referring to here since both are on the car.

Jim

Right with a JB4 if the car thinks it's making more than the factory boost is throws an over-boost fault of course. The entire basis of the tuning is that the DME and vehicle can never know it's making more boost, more power, or using more fuel, than factory. And a side effect of that is that it's not detectable when removed. Unlike a flash map which always leaves traces behind.

That said we've seen crank hub spin at factory power levels too so it might be more likely at higher power levels that isn't really known. Everyone around here on the forums is generally tuned.

[AlejoEvo]

Originally Posted by Chase__M4

GREAT NEWS just spoke to SSR performance and the motor is completely fine! I think because I immediately threw it in neutral I saved the motor from catastrophic damage. Also Shah discovered the previous owner had a JB4 on the car. They are taking off the JB4, dropping the subframe, replacing the spun crankhub with their 4 pinned crankhub fix. They are also installing their signature power pack with new intakes, DP's, charge pipe and I will be running a stage 2 bm3 tune. All in all I am very lucky that the motor is okay. Shoutout to SSR Performance for taking great care of me and I am excited to get the car back soon

Those are great news! The cost of a repair job for a S55 is not cheap.

[horsepower_and_hounds]

We really need Deznan or Halim to chime in here proTUNING Freaks

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by SSR Performance

They will know if you have had a JB4 boosting above stock levels based on logs in the ECU files that you and I will never ever know about haha. Trust me BMW NA engineers have gone to great lengths to protect themselves based on the situations I have seen take place.

Shah @ SSR Performance

Boost target or boost pressure is not how BMW would detect a JB4 as noted in the post right below yours. BMW have other FASTA data to look into if they really wanted to investigate. People have speculated increased fuel pressure and torque level patterns relative to boost target... However, the fact remains that a JB4 equipped car simply requires more work to detect compared to a standalone flash tune.

Below is an example of a JB4 tuned M5 who had an engine replacement covered under warranty:

Main thread:
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404675

Conclusion:
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=37

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by Sherhart

This is true for tunes, but not JB4 since it intercepts the boost signal and tricks the car into thinking it is seeing stock boost levels. Not sure which one you're referring to here since both are on the car.

Jim

It goes far beyond the boost readings. Sure you can trick the DME into thinking boost is accurate with a JB4. What traces it leaves behind with mileage stamps are injector duty cycle, rail pressure, transmission input torque, crank speed and timing just to name a few. There's also checks for cal id, CVN, flash counters in both DMEs on V8s, program numbers etc. There's definitely more than meets the eye and if they want to find mods, they will. Since it's all mileage stamped, it can be seen based on fasta history roughly when the values were stored.

Bottom line for everyone- If you're worried about a repair bill based on modifications, don't do them. Otherwise roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens to your vehicle. Just don't expect anyone else to foot the bill for your decisions, should they go wrong.

[SSR Performance]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

Boost target or boost pressure is not how BMW would detect a JB4 as noted in the post right below yours. BMW have other FASTA data to look into if they really wanted to investigate. People have speculated increased fuel pressure and torque level patterns relative to boost target... However, the fact remains that a JB4 equipped car simply requires more work to detect compared to a standalone flash tune.

Below is an example of a JB4 tuned M5 who had an engine replacement covered under warranty:

Main thread:
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404675

Conclusion:
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=37

I understand completely. There is no doubt that a flash tune is easier to detect. It just takes a simple flash counter check.

The question was not of which is easier or more difficult to detect, but rather if both are detectable. The answer to that question is yes.

Shah @ SSR Performance

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by SSR Performance

I understand completely. There is no doubt that a flash tune is easier to detect. It just takes a simple flash counter check.

The question was not of which is easier or more difficult to detect, but rather if both are detectable. The answer to that question is yes.

Shah @ SSR Performance

Correct. Flash count is one easy way to detect a tune, but it also leaves more crumbs along the process even if a flash count freeze were to be implemented.

JB4 is also susceptible to detection, as reinforced in the post just above yours. But the way the system is designed gives it a higher chance of going unnoticed, and in some fortunate cases, a brand new engine replacement covered under warranty.

At the end of the day, this shouldn't be the focus of this topic, as the factory crank hub clearly isn't designed for high horsepower applications. Pay to play is the name of the game when it comes to engine tuning.

[SSR Performance]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

Correct. Flash count is one easy way to detect a tune, but it also leaves more crumbs along the process even if a flash count freeze were to be implemented.

JB4 is also susceptible to detection, as reinforced in the post just above yours. But the way the system is designed gives it a higher chance of going unnoticed, and in some fortunate cases, a brand new engine replacement covered under warranty.

At the end of the day, this shouldn't be the focus of this topic, as the factory crank hub clearly isn't designed for high horsepower applications. Pay to play is the name of the game when it comes to engine tuning.

Couldn’t agree more!


Shah @ SSR Performance

[SickGTR]

I think some people just want to believe they are safe with a tune, so they believe that BMW won't find out. Maybe you get a friendly dealer here and there but most likely you are paying out of pocket. I had my data pulled on my GTR once and was blown away what info they had!! Highest temps of oil and tranny. A/F , boost, highest RPM and tons more. So if nissan can tell what your doing, so can BMW

[AlejoEvo]

Originally Posted by SickGTR

I think some people just want to believe they are safe with a tune, so they believe that BMW won't find out. Maybe you get a friendly dealer here and there but most likely you are paying out of pocket. I had my data pulled on my GTR once and was blown away what info they had!! Highest temps of oil and tranny. A/F , boost, highest RPM and tons more. So if nissan can tell what your doing, so can BMW

Exactly! What do you think is the purpose of the Dyno mode, and the HP and torque meter? The information you see is stored and can be analyzed if a problem occurs.

[whatnotsomuchf80]

Originally Posted by mark5092

I’m glad it is working out for you. You are new to the car and new to the forum. For those of us owning these cars since 2015 and following CH failures from the early years, there has never been any proof that a serious problem exists. I have never been concerned about it and never will be. You titled your thread “another crank hub failure” as though this is happening frequently. It’s not and never has! You make it sound like everyone that wants to tune should have the fix done. Should people with no plans to tune also have it done? Because it has happened to completely factory stock cars both DCT and 6MT, 6MT’s due to money shifts, JB4 and flashed tuned cars. Please quit spooking everyone that wants to tune. Your taking money from vendors. Just get your car back repaired and enjoy it. You don’t have to keep this going. You were just unfortunate that it happened to you.

I am not new to this car or the forums. Nor do I take any money from any vendors (don't need it lol). But let's go through this as I think OP made a great thread as @ASRman is very wrong as well. You are buying a car that's worth approx $70k MSRP new (mine was $80k). With a few simple bolt ons worth a few thousand, you have a car that can accelerate off of a roll faster than many $200k and def $150k cars. Reality is, if you can afford the car you'd be crazy not to consider it. Only problem is that when you tune and add TORQUE, you directly increase your chance of spinning your crank hub. Why do you think so many E85 tuned F80's and F82's spin? A LOT of torque added. with a simple fix worth a few thousand that has been proven to NOT spin 100% of the time (Max Psi had like 750hp on their test car w no failures) from SSR Performance, why would you not do it if tuning at all? If you're tuned you should not be downshifting like crazy w no fix. That sucks. I downshift like crazy and have fun bc I have security w my fix. Again- I am not sponsored, I take no money or discounts. I'm just real. Keep crying tho have fun babying your car

[Chase__M4]

Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80

I am not new to this car or the forums. Nor do I take any money from any vendors (don't need it lol). But let's go through this as I think OP made a great thread as @ASRman is very wrong as well. You are buying a car that's worth approx $70k MSRP new (mine was $80k). With a few simple bolt ons worth a few thousand, you have a car that can accelerate off of a roll faster than many $200k and def $150k cars. Reality is, if you can afford the car you'd be crazy not to consider it. Only problem is that when you tune and add TORQUE, you directly increase your chance of spinning your crank hub. Why do you think so many E85 tuned F80's and F82's spin? A LOT of torque added. with a simple fix worth a few thousand that has been proven to NOT spin 100% of the time (Max Psi had like 750hp on their test car w no failures) from SSR Performance, why would you not do it if tuning at all? If you're tuned you should not be downshifting like crazy w no fix. That sucks. I downshift like crazy and have fun bc I have security w my fix. Again- I am not sponsored, I take no money or discounts. I'm just real. Keep crying tho have fun babying your car

Well put, I knew I wanted to make this car show it’s true potential and I agree with you that’s it’s definitely a gamble tuning the car without it. I even thought I was safe with just a stage 1 but it only took an hour to spin the crankhub. Very happy that I can drive the car without fear with FBO stage 2

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by AlejoEvo

Exactly! What do you think is the purpose of the Dyno mode, and the HP and torque meter? The information you see is stored and can be analyzed if a problem occurs.

Just to debunk any future conspiracy theories on this.

Dyno Mode is to prevent the gauge cluster from showing chassis malfunction Christmas lights due to:

1. hood sensor = open
2. speed sensor = no acceleration, but engine speed high

HP and Torque Sport Display is a wide estimate mainly for visual enhancements. Actual power levels are not measured.

The information BMW is collecting is called FASTA testdaten. The data is encrypted, so one will need access to either the Order Data Viewer or the web based FBM Viewer.

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by MilehighM3

It goes far beyond the boost readings. Sure you can trick the DME into thinking boost is accurate with a JB4. What traces it leaves behind with mileage stamps are injector duty cycle, rail pressure, transmission input torque, crank speed and timing just to name a few. There's also checks for cal id, CVN, flash counters in both DMEs on V8s, program numbers etc. There's definitely more than meets the eye and if they want to find mods, they will. Since it's all mileage stamped, it can be seen based on fasta history roughly when the values were stored.

FWIW the JB4 spoofs the injector pulse width which is the other common detection method, and torque to the trans is always factory with the JB4, for better, or worse. With the BEF they boost torque readings to the trans for improved shifting performance for example. Usually people with the JB4 who get flagged for failing to remove it or going in with modifications like downpipes or intakes that allow them to presume it must have also been tuned.

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

FWIW the JB4 spoofs the injector pulse width which is the other common detection method, and torque to the trans is always factory with the JB4, for better, or worse. With the BEF they boost torque readings to the trans for improved shifting performance for example. Usually people with the JB4 who get flagged for failing to remove it or going in with modifications like downpipes or intakes that allow them to presume it must have also been tuned.

We'll have to agree to disagree since this is an age old debate that's not the focus of this thread.

[AlejoEvo]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

Just to debunk any future conspiracy theories on this.

Dyno Mode is to prevent the gauge cluster from showing chassis malfunction Christmas lights due to:

1. hood sensor = open
2. speed sensor = no acceleration, but engine speed high

HP and Torque Sport Display is a wide estimate mainly for visual enhancements. Actual power levels are not measured.

The information BMW is collecting is called FASTA testdaten. The data is encrypted, so one will need access to either the Order Data Viewer or the web based FBM Viewer.

I think you didn't got my point. I wasn't saying that's exactly the purpose of those functions. But, do you think the system does not record anything you do when your using the functions? Or that the functions are being used?

The car has data of everything, even when a CD is not recognized by the radio. Many of the warnings or signals raised by the system are not visible by the driver, and many scan tools can't show them to you.

I know an F80/82 is a sports car that many drivers will be using to its limits, and maybe BMW is a mature manufacturer and know that if the car is stock and something fails, they honor their warranty. But many manufacturers are not the same. When the GTR was released, even with the car launch control, many transmissions failed, and Nissan didn't honored their warranty. Many owners paid for the transmission after such an incident. Same with Evo's with their differential!

This ain't no conspiracy theory, this is real, the car records everything that happens when in function and that kind of stuff, that makes the car fun, can be the first thing that can be noticed when something goes wrong.

[Fuel-It!]

I had a customer who once told me they got in to a legal dispute with their dealership over some repair who then subpoenaed their credit card statements to look for proof of buying modifications. Both sides play dirty! Just be aware of the risks for any modifications you decide to add.

Something like this spun crank hub though, it's so common, I'm surprised they have not already admitted it's a factory flaw.

[AlejoEvo]

Maybe they know many people modify their cars and that leaves their name untouched even when the SCH continue to appear.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

I had a customer who once told me they got in to a legal dispute with their dealership over some repair who then subpoenaed their credit card statements to look for proof of buying modifications. Both sides play dirty! Just be aware of the risks for any modifications you decide to add.

Something like this spun crank hub though, it's so common, I'm surprised they have not already admitted it's a factory flaw.

Yikes! This is the first I've heard of such legal strategy in an automotive related case.

Hope the M4 is back on the road with that built engine goodness!

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by AlejoEvo

I think you didn't got my point. I wasn't saying that's exactly the purpose of those functions. But, do you think the system does not record anything you do when your using the functions? Or that the functions are being used?

The car has data of everything, even when a CD is not recognized by the radio. Many of the warnings or signals raised by the system are not visible by the driver, and many scan tools can show them to you.

I know an F80/82 is a sports car that many drivers will be using to its limits, and maybe BMW is a mature manufacturer and know that if the car is stock and something fails, they honor their warranty. But many manufacturers are not the same. When the GTR was released, even with the car launch control, many transmissions failed, and Nissan didn't honored their warranty. Many owners paid for the transmission after such an incident. Same with Evo's with their differential!

This ain't no conspiracy theory, this is real, the car records everything that happens when in function and that kind of stuff, that makes the car fun can be the first thing that can be noticed when something goes wrong.

Originally Posted by AlejoEvo

Maybe they know many people modify their cars and that leaves their name untouched even when the SCH continue to appear.

I'm not sure if I missed your point, or you simply failed to elaborate your opinions clearly.

My apologies for clarifying the "maybes". I believe there's a lot of reading ahead of you in order to sort through the rest of the maybes you're thinking of. I can link you to a reference thread for a quick catch up if you're up for more learning on this platform.