Lucky Trackday : M4 vs M2 vs Turbo S

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR

It this a full lap the same way as tested for all the production car records!?

No, this is Bridge to Gantry - it's 19.1 km in distance as opposed to the lap time the manufacturers get to set - 20.6 - 20.8 km.

[BMW M4 PWR]

Originally Posted by redpriest

No, this is Bridge to Gantry - it's 19.1 km in distance as opposed to the lap time the manufacturers get to set - 20.6 - 20.8 km.

Ok I figured it may of been a shorter lap with that time, thank you*

[jetbill]

Originally Posted by Drive4Fun

Don't fall for the idea that you need those mods to get faster tho. You could spend 10-15k on suspension, brakes, wheels and run the exact same times. How? You're using the same braking points. You have to learn the car all over again. You may be able to go 50-100 ft further until you have to brake and get on the gas that much earlier. You may have to change your entire line. Then add more horsepower and tack on a few more seconds. Braking points you've established are out the window and you look like Tokyo drift bc your car has 650ft lbs of tq. The better you get, the more pleasure you'll feel when you pass up cars that should be destroying you on the track. Ask an instructor for a ride along. If he thinks you're extracting 100%, then mod up. If not just polish those skills.

Some of the best feedback of heard on forums in ALONG time! Throwing money at a car isn't always the answer. Now I need to start living by this rule..

[M3 Number 86]

The m4 track section is weird. Lol

[DVC]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Enough mods and weight reduction and anything is impossible:

I noticed he cracked 1.7 lateral Gs several times...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR

It this a full lap the same way as tested for all the production car records!?

BTG = Bridge to Gantry, which excludes the long straight. It shortens the track by about a mile and is worth 25~30 seconds.

[spongbobsquarepants]

Originally Posted by Drive4Fun

Don't fall for the idea that you need those mods to get faster tho. You could spend 10-15k on suspension, brakes, wheels and run the exact same times. How? You're using the same braking points. You have to learn the car all over again. You may be able to go 50-100 ft further until you have to brake and get on the gas that much earlier. You may have to change your entire line. Then add more horsepower and tack on a few more seconds. Braking points you've established are out the window and you look like Tokyo drift bc your car has 650ft lbs of tq. The better you get, the more pleasure you'll feel when you pass up cars that should be destroying you on the track. Ask an instructor for a ride along. If he thinks you're extracting 100%, then mod up. If not just polish those skills.

Super well said!!!!

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

BTG = Bridge to Gantry, which excludes the long straight. It shortens the track by about a mile and is worth 25~30 seconds.

The time difference is actually quite a bit less. There was a discussion a few years ago and locals thought it was more like 7 - 10 seconds.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

I wanted to write-up my recent track-day experience since I got very lucky and by chance all of the above cars were lined up at the same day without the drivers knowing each other.
I'm driving a M4 with JB4 map1(91pump gas)+catless downpipes and Michelin PSC2 265/285 35 19s.

vs M2 : Given the M2 was all stock including the tires as well, I was really amazed by its performance. Its cornering definitely is better than M4, however on the straights even with the stock vs stock it's no match for M4. Even though I complain on the forum at lot about the CCBs, their performance on track is really really amazing. Because M2 was equipped with steels and my car is equipped with CCBs, the difference was really obvious after even one lap. Given the track is an ex formula1 track(IstanbulPark), it has really long straights and after these long straights there are heavy breaking corners.(230kmh to 60kmh). Therefore even after one lap the brakes are getting very hot.
Overall M2 could cope up for a lap then I passed it during the straight and started to build on the lead.

vs Turbo S : Unfortunately, Turbo S is no match for our cars. I was expecting to be passed by it but I wasn't expecting to be that different. Since it has a awd it kills the M4 at the corner exits, during the straights its performance is no match for M4. I kept it behind me for almost a lap but then when it passed me, I couldn't even come close to it.

I have noticed that, my times with Stock Map was almost a second quicker than my times with map1. It can be related to the weather etc. but I feel like for tracking map1 wasn't really making any difference. I feel like a custom tune which isn't for the peak number but for a better all the way torque/hp curve increase could make much better times due to traction.

Now my question is, how will we pass the Turbo S? I know it kind of sounds like a stupid question, but I really wonder if it is possible with the correct tunes.
My current plan is to have E30 + Bootmod3 + Pure Hi-Flows + GTS rear sway bars + GTS TCU tune. But even after all that I wonder if I will be even close to Turbo S. If so, maybe I shouldn't invest this much time/money/effort and just go ahead and buy a Turbo S since it's also a good daily driver.

Become a better driver 95% driver 5% car . Take some lessons . Mod the driver before modding the car .

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Become a better driver 95% driver 5% car . Take some lessons . Mod the driver before modding the car .

You all are missing one point, I already got lessons and the turbo s driver got them as well. Therefore let me put it this way, the drivers being the same, do you think we have a chance using the mods vs stock turbo S? Keep in mind that I don't want to kill the cars daily driving ability along the way.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Become a better driver 95% driver 5% car . Take some lessons . Mod the driver before modding the car .

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

You all are missing one point, I already got lessons and the turbo s driver got them as well. Therefore let me put it this way, the drivers being the same, do you think we have a chance using the mods vs stock turbo S? Keep in mind that I don't want to kill the cars daily driving ability along the way.

I don't think we're missing your point - but I think you may be missing the point in the above response...

Yes, a well-modded M4 can keep pace around the track with a stock turbo S. But to be fair, I'll add a couple of caveats:

1) In the hands of a novice driver, the potential of a well-modded M4 may be harder to extract than that of a stock turbo S... so, comparing two novice drivers, the more accessible AWD turbo S may seem too quick to catch. Also, there's no knowing if your natural skill level is comparable to the Porsche driver.'s And a couple quick lessons aren't really enough to level the playing field.

2) "Well-modded" would include a bit more than just JB4+DP and good tires. To start with, camber plates are pretty important to ensure enough front end grip to really get at the car's potential.


When you spend more time on track, and you start seeing well-modded e36 M3s walk by Ferraris in the advanced and instructor run groups, you'll clearly see what we're talking about.

[adc]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You need to buy wider wheels, like the EC7 10.5 front and 11 rear, then move to at least 275 front and 305/315/325 rear. If you do this with slick tires you'll be on another level

With 100 track days under your belt, you won't care if someone is driving the Millennium Falcon, you know that it takes serious commitment to enter the bus stop at 100mph and you will do that whereas the driver of the Millennium Falcon cannot

An F80 can easily take out a Turbo S, it's a matter of being a better driver than they are which is likely by the way. There seems to be an inverse relationship between the size of your bank account and driving skill.

The Lightning Lap and other standardized track times do not tell you much.
In a track day, the drivers are not standardized. This is by far the biggest variation.
Cars are not running OEM tires, brakes, suspension, seats, weight, etc etc etc.

Very well said.

If you have the CCBs, then tires are by far the most important modification. You don't need to add power, in many cases it just gets in the way.

Next, I'd do camber plates and after that, suspension. But at that point, is it still a nice daily driver? Not for me perhaps.


I can reiterate what others have said: past a certain level, commitment and skill are way more important than any mod or car. I've passed 911 GT3 RS, Mustang GT350, Vette C7 Z06 etc. not because they were bad drivers, but because another couple of seconds take a lot of guts, and perhaps you start wondering if your car is truly disposable.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

The time difference is actually quite a bit less. There was a discussion a few years ago and locals thought it was more like 7 - 10 seconds.

You're funny.

You realize a car would need to travel at an average 530mph~360mph to cover the the 1660m (~1 mile) distance in 7-10 seconds respectively ? I don't know of many cars capable of that .

There are 3 most common distance used for Nordschleife lap times:

• Full course: 20.8km
• Sport Auto Supertest: 20.6km (skips the section in front of the "old" pits, used by most manufacturers for published times)
• Bridge to Gantry: 19.1km (skips the entire Döttinger Höhe straight, used during Turistenfahrts)

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You're funny.

You realize a car would need to travel at an average 520-360mph to cover the the 1660m (~1 mile) distance in 7-10 seconds? I don't know of many cars capable of that .

There are 3 most common distance used for Nordschleife lap times:

• Full course: 20.8km
• Sport Auto Supertest: 20.6km (skips the section in front of the "old" pits and is used by most manufacturers for published times)
• Bridge to Gantry: 19.1km (skips the entire "long" straight, used during Turistenfahrts)

http://www.bridgetogantry.com/2/inde...to-gantry-mean

Some interesting facts about BTG:
The distance between the gantry and the bridge is almost exactly 1 mile, 1660mtrs.
It takes a top-end sportscar less than 25 seconds to cover this distance. Most normal cars with a 120mph top speed over 30 seconds.
A BTG lap isn't just 25 or 30 seconds shorter, as the standing start from point 'C' adds another 5-6 seconds back on the time for most cars.
The straight is very bumpy, and is uphill all the way to the bridge.
Top speed is attained into the dip AFTER the bridge on a flying lap
On a BTG lap top speed is attained before Schwedenkreuz or in the Foxhole (for lower power cars)

Okay so I miss remembered. But you are pretty cool with your response.... Good day...

[JustAnothaM4]

Originally Posted by Drive4Fun

Don't fall for the idea that you need those mods to get faster tho. You could spend 10-15k on suspension, brakes, wheels and run the exact same times. How? You're using the same braking points. You have to learn the car all over again. You may be able to go 50-100 ft further until you have to brake and get on the gas that much earlier. You may have to change your entire line. Then add more horsepower and tack on a few more seconds. Braking points you've established are out the window and you look like Tokyo drift bc your car has 650ft lbs of tq. The better you get, the more pleasure you'll feel when you pass up cars that should be destroying you on the track. Ask an instructor for a ride along. If he thinks you're extracting 100%, then mod up. If not just polish those skills.

THIS!