SSOTT

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

This definitely puts you in the minority of reviewers & people I've driven them with

I literally haven't met anyone nor read or watched any review that put *ANY* Cayenne as more engaging than the X5m, with the key being, when lit up. If I'm mistaken, let me know - That's DEFINITELY NOT to say any one person's opinion is better than another, but it's more like movie or music reviews: once you get to know what a reviewer likes you can gauge if you'll like it. So either I'm an outlier and missed all of the Cayenne-better-than-X5M reviews or you're the outlier and we just like different things about a vehicle.

I will say I NEVER track & am road course only, plus most of my routine fun comes from Canyon Carving - which is how I judged the C-GTS & X5M. I suspect given your track experience we might be looking for WAY different things ... In a canyon scenario, the Cayenne feels super smooth whereas the X5M feels giggly batshit; it's the vehicle that's always pushing you to go just a stitch faster around the next curve, just a bit more nutty; and straight line acceleration in the C-GTS is just flat out no comparison to the X5M

This pic tells that tale:



This is Cayenne Turbo getting beat by stock X5M & M50i ... it's just out-classed.


Clearly there's some feel-aspect of the Cayenne GTS in corners that you feel outweighs the fairly large power & acceleration deficit and raw cornering capability of the X5m? Or what would say the GTS is so much better at that it overcomes the power deficit? Say more about "engagement" - what exactly do you mean in an example back to back?


For me the Cayenne driving feel - the "engagement" - is an addictive smoothness in corners and recovery ; in canyon-carving, kind of a feel of up-down-over-around ease that puts a smile on your face ... but it doesn't rib-nudge me.

Versus the X5M, to my butt, has a that-wunt-nuttin feel when you light it up around a corner - maybe that's what you're calling "not engaging"? For me that *IS* engaging! It's a challenge: try-the-next-one-harder. And then again. And again. And frankly I get way too scared before I'm even close to the limit of that car, so I walk away thinking next-time...next-time.

So maybe that's the difference? The Cayenne is slower, but smoother whereas the X5M's number feel challenges me but disappoints you? I could see that.

Overall, that's why, had I been able to find a decent dealer & deal, I woulda gone Porsche - simply because I've never gotten any real it's-mine seat time in a Porsche.

I think maybe we define "engagement" different. I'm so over numbers, drag races and lap times. Especially the stupid ass Nurburdskjnfjksdnjnsjkdfn lap time/records. I've come to the realization I can't use all the car is capable on the track because I'm not that good of a driver and never will be. Nor can you or should get to the limits on the road. You know I've had a lot of cars and I'd rank them like this in the fun to drive/engagement ranking. CGTS 4.0 (MT), GT350 (MT), tie between the M4 CS (DCT) and ZL1 1LE (MT), C63s (MCT 9) and every other version of F80 M3/4 (comp, base MT/DCT etc) I ever had. Notice something here? On paper the Porsche and the Ford are probably the slowest in every acceleration test and not the best skid pad numbers. Nor the best lap numbers. What they are is just fun as hell to drive. The steering and chassis just communicate to you, they don't sound like shit and they aren't filled with gimmicks like every BMW on the road and badged to the hilt just so everyone knows you are in a non M, faux M or real M. Sorry for the run on sentence.

Aside from my M4 CS, I've been disappointed in every single BMW I've ever owned, leased or test driven. Aside from the M2 being literally the only other caveat. The ones I've been disappointed in all have the exact same things in common and they might as well be the same car. Stupid fast, switched to boring ZF8 transmissions, heavy steering to try and hide the fact it isn't saying shit to you through the steering wheel. Soft brakes and pedal feel unless you pony up for carbon ceramics of which I don't like for DD reasons and replacement costs. Uncomfortable seats and gadgets up the wazu that nobody hardly uses including the digital dash. Probably the most important is suspension tuning. They are either too harsh or too soft, no real goldilocks zone like the CGTS and GT350 have/had (the M4 CS being the only exception here/maybe the M2). Or the Macans/Cayennes I've driven. I'll say MB can be the same way but the AMGs are still fun to drive in the way that I like them. Every F80/82 I've owned would crush my wife's C63S on the track and I'd never give it up for another one, ever. Porsches can be gimmicky to if you go crazy on the option sheet, but they can also still be optioned for just fun driving still.

If I wanted a car that had the highest limits ever and was bonkers crazy etc etc I would've never given up my ZL1 1LE. I admit, I still miss that thing sometimes and my GT350 for fun driving. Neither come close to the Porsche which is the slowest accelerating and not the highest cornering limits. I don't know how they do it but nothing else compares to me except for the rare car like some of the US companies are doing and some MBs.

Any way, now I'm rambling, hopefully that explains my thought process. You probably have enough money for two retirements so go crazy and get something different and really fun. If you really do like the X5M and think it is the most fun car to drive for your purposes then that's cool to. I have this feeling though you are settling though because you are afraid to approach that hot crazy girl in the bar.

[minn19]

GrussGott, I've never gotten to drive an E90 M but I have other non M E90s. Also some E46 and a lot of E36 Ms. I can see why they built such a loyal following and can also see why there is such disappointment now with the brand. The German HP/muscle car wars have really taken a lot out of the driving dynamic aspect of it. I even include some 911s in there as well.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

GrussGott, I've never gotten to drive an E90 M but I have other non M E90s. Also some E46 and a lot of E36 Ms. I can see why they built such a loyal following and can also see why there is such disappointment now with the brand. The German HP/muscle car wars have really taken a lot out of the driving dynamic aspect of it. I even include some 911s in there as well.

That's a shame because I think it would fit you ... while it's slower than every F9x by the numbers and also for my style, it would be my top pick. It's the only car I've ever had that I regret no longer having - it had TRUE personality and SOUL Even my wife, who hated driving it, said it was alive. By contrast, she LOVED the F8xs, so that kinda tells that tale

On the X5m, naw, I'm not settling; in fact, it's the only one of the bunch that truly excites me as in I'm really excited to get it! (if it actually happens).

For me it breaks down this way:

* The X5m is the hot girl at the bar I'll probably regret going home with



* The Porsche is the smart interesting chick with a bit of an edge



* The Benz is the fuckin wackadoo who'll show me her boobs just because I jokingly asked and she thinks I think she won't do it. so she will. then she chugs her beer and stomps away laughing.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

This definitely puts you in the minority of reviewers & people I've driven them with

I literally haven't met anyone nor read or watched any review that put *ANY* Cayenne as more engaging than the X5m, with the key being, when lit up. If I'm mistaken, let me know - That's DEFINITELY NOT to say any one person's opinion is better than another, but it's more like movie or music reviews: once you get to know what a reviewer likes you can gauge if you'll like it. So either I'm an outlier and missed all of the Cayenne-better-than-X5M reviews or you're the outlier and we just like different things about a vehicle.

I will say I NEVER track & am road course only, plus most of my routine fun comes from Canyon Carving - which is how I judged the C-GTS & X5M. I suspect given your track experience we might be looking for WAY different things ... In a canyon scenario, the Cayenne feels super smooth whereas the X5M feels giggly batshit; it's the vehicle that's always pushing you to go just a stitch faster around the next curve, just a bit more nutty; and straight line acceleration in the C-GTS is just flat out no comparison to the X5M

This pic tells that tale:



This is Cayenne Turbo getting beat by stock X5M & M50i ... it's just out-classed.


Clearly there's some feel-aspect of the Cayenne GTS in corners that you feel outweighs the fairly large power & acceleration deficit and raw cornering capability of the X5m? Or what would say the GTS is so much better at that it overcomes the power deficit? Say more about "engagement" - what exactly do you mean in an example back to back?


For me the Cayenne driving feel - the "engagement" - is an addictive smoothness in corners and recovery ; in canyon-carving, kind of a feel of up-down-over-around ease that puts a smile on your face ... but it doesn't rib-nudge me.

Versus the X5M, to my butt, has a that-wunt-nuttin feel when you light it up around a corner - maybe that's what you're calling "not engaging"? For me that *IS* engaging! It's a challenge: try-the-next-one-harder. And then again. And again. And frankly I get way too scared before I'm even close to the limit of that car, so I walk away thinking next-time...next-time.

So maybe that's the difference? The Cayenne is slower, but smoother whereas the X5M's number feel challenges me but disappoints you? I could see that.

Overall, that's why, had I been able to find a decent dealer & deal, I woulda gone Porsche - simply because I've never gotten any real it's-mine seat time in a Porsche.

I been in them before but never owned one.

It is one of the cars that people like for multiple reasons but I would point to the engine being the biggest one followed by the older style of driving feel from the steering wheel.

Like I said, I stopped caring for speed because it is pointless. I don't care for 0 - 60 times, nor do I care for pointless drag strip numbers. There will always be something faster. If nothing else, BMW has proved in recent years they care more for marketing numbers because that is how most see it without understanding cars.

I enjoy now a days, how the car makes me feel when I drive them. Not not fast I can get from Point A to Point B, because most cars at this range in price, will be more than fast enough. Now, are they a huge difference between Highlander and a X5M? Nope but that is the point.

I would say, minn19 would probably understand how I see cars now a days. Especially now, as he owns multiple different brands of cars. Most who speaks of drag strip numbers, I feel like just want to justify what they have and that is fine but lets be honest. Most of the time, these numbers don't make any real difference to us driving on the street. We don't have the Autobahn in the US, nor do we have the Ring here either. So, it isn't like any of that really matters.

I don't care of my GT4 is a tad slower hitting 60 than my formerly M3 and my M4. There is just something magical about the car, every time I am in it. The stupid infotainment not withstanding of course. Personally, I dare say the E46 or E90/E92 M3 is about as close to the GT cars due to their DNA. The past Ms aren't as fast but the mechanical feel of them are very similar and that is why people love them still.

Everyone has a different idea of what they want in a car. Mine grew and matured from, wanting a lot of speed, to just enjoyment and engagement in driving. Along with wanting something more special, not something that has about 20k+ of them running about in the world.

P.S. I will just add that. I don't hate BMW, they are a brand I feel safe with because I am so familiar with them. That said though, my preference has changed a lot since 2015. I still would get BMW, as it is still something I'd default to but that is about it. The one car from BMW I do want, if I choose is actually the X3 M40i, the current one. That car felt good, the suspenion was slightly better than the one in my old Macan S, which caught me off guard initially. ZF wasn't as good as the PDK (Audi units are in the Macan) but everything else, I actually would take the X3 M40i.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I stopped caring for speed because it is pointless. I don't care for 0 - 60 times, nor do I care for pointless drag strip numbers. There will always be something faster.

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion here, and I don't mean this other than notionally, but this framing is quickly becoming one of those cliched trite things rich people say ... sort of the equivalent of "I've stopped caring about wearing diamonds"

Here's what I mean:

First, I totally agree with the notion - I've been saying the same since 2014 when I ditched the E9x for the F8x. The E9x had soul because it was based on a Bierman special from beginning to end; the track car he was specially tapped to build to best Porsche on the circuit! And it did! Naturally aspirated, hydraulic steering, good brakes ... and the closet I've ever been to believing there was a ghost in the machine. Whereas while he led the F8x project, he was forced to make a ton of compromises like having turbos - there was almost mutiny over it, and it was purely an accounting decision.

So why did I prefer the F8x?

Because it was faster - I used to race against people and the clock. In the F8x I was a faster driver and I wasn't even getting close to its line because the one time I did I lost control of the car which is only time that's ever happened to me in my adult life. luckily it was only sideways down the middle of the road to a stop, but it was enough. So while I didn't like its engagement as much, I like its speed. So it won.

Had I been interested in only solo canyon carving the E9x would've been the clear winner. and I might never have gone F8x.

Faster is better. It's always better. It's why the horsepower wars have always been fought and it's ultimately why the future of performance driving is electric: if BEVs weren't faster than ICE there's no way they'd have the prevalence they do right now. I'd be willing to bet the Taycan is much more engaging car to drive than the Tesla Plaid ... but speed always wins, so now the Taycan will have to step it up.

EVERYbody cares about speed. I know what you guys mean, but I also know you'd NEVER drive any car that was significant slower than competitors ... so we should all stop trying to fool ourselves about it.


Speed & power are MOST things; always have been, always will be. If I can add to that the elusive "engagement", then great. But if I have to sacrifice one, it ain't gonna be speed. Maybe a little tiny bit. But not much. Maybe none.

It's also probably why my first Porsche will be a Cross Hybrid or similar - that'd be the Porsche I'd be most excited to get today (well a GT3RS would be but that ain't happening) - and the one I would get if it weren't so damn hard to charge on the road.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion here, and I don't mean this other than notionally, but this framing is quickly becoming one of those cliched trite things rich people say ... sort of the equivalent of "I've stopped caring about wearing diamonds"

Here's what I mean:

First, I totally agree with the notion - I've been saying the same since 2014 when I ditched the E9x for the F8x. The E9x had soul because it was based on a Bierman special from beginning to end; the track car he was specially tapped to build to best Porsche on the circuit! And it did! Naturally aspirated, hydraulic steering, good brakes ... and the closet I've ever been to believing there was a ghost in the machine. Whereas while he led the F8x project, he was forced to make a ton of compromises like having turbos - there was almost mutiny over it, and it was purely an accounting decision.

So why did I prefer the F8x?

Because it was faster - I used to race against people and the clock. In the F8x I was a faster driver and I wasn't even getting close to its line because the one time I did I lost control of the car which is only time that's ever happened to me in my adult life. luckily it was only sideways down the middle of the road to a stop, but it was enough. So while I didn't like its engagement as much, I like its speed. So it won.

Had I been interested in only solo canyon carving the E9x would've been the clear winner. and I might never have gone F8x.

Faster is better. It's always better. It's why the horsepower wars have always been fought and it's ultimately why the future of performance driving is electric: if BEVs weren't faster than ICE there's no way they'd have the prevalence they do right now. I'd be willing to bet the Taycan is much more engaging car to drive than the Tesla Plaid ... but speed always wins, so now the Taycan will have to step it up.

EVERYbody cares about speed. I know what you guys mean, but I also know you'd NEVER drive any car that was significant slower than competitors ... so we should all stop trying to fool ourselves about it.


Speed & power are MOST things; always have been, always will be. If I can add to that the elusive "engagement", then great. But if I have to sacrifice one, it ain't gonna be speed. Maybe a little tiny bit. But not much. Maybe none.

It's also probably why my first Porsche will be a Cross Hybrid or similar - that'd be the Porsche I'd be most excited to get today (well a GT3RS would be but that ain't happening) - and the one I would get if it weren't so damn hard to charge on the road.

I don't really agree.

If speed is all people care for then BMW should win on all fronts. Sales especially but they don't. Benz is up there, edging them out because of certain elements like the AMG V8. Customers buy cars because of the brand and what they feel is best for them. Online forums care for other things like speed when you got nothing better to talk or whine about.

If speed is truly what matters, then ppl would buy the G8x regardless of how the car looks. And if speed is all you care for then, the irony is you should get the G80, because it is quicker from a dig and slightly faster from a roll compared to the F80.

I don't think I have ever asked but have you ever gone outside of BMW before? Own another brand of car for multiple years? I know you said you own multiple M3s up until Mr. Beaverface, but what of Audi, Benz and Porsche? Any of their counterparts?

Like I said. Any German performance car at this price point, or even American brands, are far faster then they ever need to be. Whether you are talking about Porsche GT, AMG, M, RS etc. I can guarantee you, you aren't going to race anyone in San Jose, nor Los Angeles. How much faster do you feel you need to go to get to the grocery store? Once you hit 75 - 80 on a freeway, or hit over 45 in less then 3 seconds on a regular road, what else exactly are you using in the car?

I put as many miles on my father's Prius Prime as well as my own cars. I know the difference in speed. Anything beyond the M340i, has speed that most wouldn't use in a daily setting.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion here, and I don't mean this other than notionally, but this framing is quickly becoming one of those cliched trite things rich people say ... sort of the equivalent of "I've stopped caring about wearing diamonds"

Here's what I mean:

First, I totally agree with the notion - I've been saying the same since 2014 when I ditched the E9x for the F8x. The E9x had soul because it was based on a Bierman special from beginning to end; the track car he was specially tapped to build to best Porsche on the circuit! And it did! Naturally aspirated, hydraulic steering, good brakes ... and the closet I've ever been to believing there was a ghost in the machine. Whereas while he led the F8x project, he was forced to make a ton of compromises like having turbos - there was almost mutiny over it, and it was purely an accounting decision.

So why did I prefer the F8x?

Because it was faster - I used to race against people and the clock. In the F8x I was a faster driver and I wasn't even getting close to its line because the one time I did I lost control of the car which is only time that's ever happened to me in my adult life. luckily it was only sideways down the middle of the road to a stop, but it was enough. So while I didn't like its engagement as much, I like its speed. So it won.

Had I been interested in only solo canyon carving the E9x would've been the clear winner. and I might never have gone F8x.

Faster is better. It's always better. It's why the horsepower wars have always been fought and it's ultimately why the future of performance driving is electric: if BEVs weren't faster than ICE there's no way they'd have the prevalence they do right now. I'd be willing to bet the Taycan is much more engaging car to drive than the Tesla Plaid ... but speed always wins, so now the Taycan will have to step it up.

EVERYbody cares about speed. I know what you guys mean, but I also know you'd NEVER drive any car that was significant slower than competitors ... so we should all stop trying to fool ourselves about it.


Speed & power are MOST things; always have been, always will be. If I can add to that the elusive "engagement", then great. But if I have to sacrifice one, it ain't gonna be speed. Maybe a little tiny bit. But not much. Maybe none.

It's also probably why my first Porsche will be a Cross Hybrid or similar - that'd be the Porsche I'd be most excited to get today (well a GT3RS would be but that ain't happening) - and the one I would get if it weren't so damn hard to charge on the road.

It's an even more unpopular opinion to discuss how many times we can actually use the power we currently have. I think I've been able to actually floor the C63S a handful times in the year we've had it. And then had to shut it down immediately because you are screaming through 80 and 100 like it is nothing. In the ZLE, forget about it, that thing was probably the fastest true scary beast of a machine I'll ever own until I move to electric or my wife gets a 911. Even the Cayman with its lowly 0-60 hovering around 4 seconds, if you do everything right, I hardly ever get to exploit its full power, even on the backroads as 3rd gear is 100 plus. I bet the vast majority of F80 drivers have only went WOT a few times for various reasons.

Any way, all the cars we are looking at are fast and that's why I gave up magazine racing or caring about lap times. Especially YouTube videos with headlines saying this "destroyed" that etc. That video you posted and all the others like it are terrible. As usual I didn't see anything getting destroyed. Plus you have no idea the talent level of any of the drivers out there or if they are on warm up/cool down laps etc etc. There is a million variables as to why x car can keep up with y car.

I drove a friends Focus ST once and remember being shocked that I was disappointed climbing into my M4 because I had to admit to myself the Ford was way more fun to drive. But but M POWAH rules all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Porsche hadn't put the 4.0 back into the Cayman, I was honestly going to give a real hard look at cars like the GTI, Civic Type R, STI, BRZ, Hyundai N. Anything lighter and more fun feeling. That's why I think I love my CGTS 4.0 so much. It's basically a much lighter/infinitely better built GT350. The Germans could definitely learn from the US manufacturers in using mag ride setups and chassis feel. They are cheap around the edges but are some really fantastic cars to drive (if they hold together).

So no, I could care less if my sports car or bloated top heavy SUV was tenths of a second slower in the 1/4 mile or 0-60. Especially when 90% plus of most everyone's use case is tooling around doing mundane things. That is the mark of an excellent car IMO when they make you smile doing stuff like that. Very very few modern BMWs can do that today.

Edit: The day I got my Cayman the Porsche lot actually had some decent inventory of new and used. FWIW, I test drove many things that day (brand new PDK GT4/911 S to name a couple) that I had previously done and picked probably the slowest car of the bunch. I also drove a PDK 911 T and that nearly swayed me, that is a really fun rare gem of a car to. But most don't give it a second look because of 1/4 mile, 0-60/power etc. But man what a car, so I put my money where my mouth is.

Edit Part 2: I forgot about my wife's M550. That thing probably did 0-60 in the low 3s and was a decent roll race monster but a truly boring kind of miserable car to drive. The faux M badge should of been ripped off and thrown in the garbage. It was the most floaty/leaning in the corners suspension of a BMW I think I've ever driven with an M badge on it. The seats should've been comfortable but neither my wife or I could ever get comfortable in it for some reason. Like most modern BMWs, fast as hell, lots of modern gizmos and doo dads but a horrible car to drive for any kind of aggressive fun driving and other odd quirks like I mentioned with the seats. I never thought BMW seats were that bad until I started really looking at the competition. They come in last place compared to everyone else almost every time for my wife and I in terms of comfort. That includes my carbon buckets in the Cayman if you don't count ingress or egress.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by minn19

It's an even more unpopular opinion to discuss how many times we can actually use the power we currently have. I think I've been able to actually floor the C63S a handful times in the year we've had it. And then had to shut it down immediately because you are screaming through 80 and 100 like it is nothing. In the ZLE, forget about it, that thing was probably the fastest true scary beast of a machine I'll ever own until I move to electric or my wife gets a 911. Even the Cayman with its lowly 0-60 hovering around 4 seconds, if you do everything right, I hardly ever get to exploit its full power, even on the backroads as 3rd gear is 100 plus. I bet the vast majority of F80 drivers have only went WOT a few times for various reasons.

Any way, all the cars we are looking at are fast and that's why I gave up magazine racing or caring about lap times. Especially YouTube videos with headlines saying this "destroyed" that etc. That video you posted and all the others like it are terrible. As usual I didn't see anything getting destroyed. Plus you have no idea the talent level of any of the drivers out there or if they are on warm up/cool down laps etc etc. There is a million variables as to why x car can keep up with y car.

I drove a friends Focus ST once and remember being shocked that I was disappointed climbing into my M4 because I had to admit to myself the Ford was way more fun to drive. But but M POWAH rules all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Porsche hadn't put the 4.0 back into the Cayman, I was honestly going to give a real hard look at cars like the GTI, Civic Type R, STI, BRZ, Hyundai N. Anything lighter and more fun feeling. That's why I think I love my CGTS 4.0 so much. It's basically a much lighter/infinitely better built GT350. The Germans could definitely learn from the US manufacturers in using mag ride setups and chassis feel. They are cheap around the edges but are some really fantastic cars to drive (if they hold together).

So no, I could care less if my sports car or bloated top heavy SUV was tenths of a second slower in the 1/4 mile or 0-60. Especially when 90% plus of most everyone's use case is tooling around doing mundane things. That is the mark of an excellent car IMO when they make you smile doing stuff like that. Very very few modern BMWs can do that today.

Edit: The day I got my Cayman the Porsche lot actually had some decent inventory of new and used. FWIW, I test drove many things that day (brand new PDK GT4/911 S to name a couple) that I had previously done and picked probably the slowest car of the bunch. I also drove a PDK 911 T and that nearly swayed me, that is a really fun rare gem of a car to. But most don't give it a second look because of 1/4 mile, 0-60/power etc. But man what a car, so I put my money where my mouth is.

Edit Part 2: I forgot about my wife's M550. That thing probably did 0-60 in the low 3s and was a decent roll race monster but a truly boring kind of miserable car to drive. The faux M badge should of been ripped off and thrown in the garbage. It was the most floaty/leaning in the corners suspension of a BMW I think I've ever driven with an M badge on it. The seats should've been comfortable but neither my wife or I could ever get comfortable in it for some reason. Like most modern BMWs, fast as hell, lots of modern gizmos and doo dads but a horrible car to drive for any kind of aggressive fun driving and other odd quirks like I mentioned with the seats. I never thought BMW seats were that bad until I started really looking at the competition. They come in last place compared to everyone else almost every time for my wife and I in terms of comfort. That includes my carbon buckets in the Cayman if you don't count ingress or egress.

I'll admit when I first got into the 2015 M4 I was happy that it was as fast as it was but I knew that I wouldn't use it. Highway even I probably barely use 75% of what it is capable of offering.

Granted, I wouldn't come close to even 50% I think of what the GT4 is going to be able to accomplish but most owners also don't do that either, unless you track of course. I never did, kinda want to try and do PECLA and be able to push a GT4 like mine a bit so I get a better understanding of the car. I was able to do so in a F8x during its lifetime, I want to be able to this time with a proper track car.

The only thing I wonder is, how MotorTrend and CD managed to get a PDK-S equipped GT4 to 3.3 - 3.4 for 0-60. I didn't think the difference the manual and PDK-S is that big.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

It's an even more unpopular opinion to discuss how many times we can actually use the power we currently have.

There is a million variables as to why x car can keep up with y car.


If Porsche hadn't put the 4.0 back into the Cayman, I was honestly going to give a real hard look at cars like the GTI, Civic Type R, STI, BRZ, Hyundai N. Anything lighter and more fun feeling. That's why I think I love my CGTS 4.0 so much. It's basically a much lighter/infinitely better built GT350.

I agree with all of that, but which vehicle do you have that you're willing to - and WANT - to detune the engine cuz too much power?

If the answer is none, then you care about power. Are you actively looking for a lighter less powerful car? Are you gonna detune your Cayman?

No. So, then the rest of it is more of a sociology observation ... which, again, I agree with, but you DO care about power, it just maybe has diminishing returns **for any given vehicle**

[GrussGott]

As a follow-on thought, I think the "speed & power is SO 2010s" movement is derivative of a few factors:

(1.) ICE horsepower has gotten really cheap.
I remember my first SUV, a 2000s OG Audi Allroad - it had ~250HP if I remember right and I used to hoon around with a few coworkers w/ sporty type cars (vettes, etc) and we all agreed it was pretty fast. Now Kias are 300hp+

(2.) BEVs
Let's face it, BEVs are the future, and they're WAY faster than ICE. People who think "but not in the US" are kidding themselves ... Germany alone is the 4th largest car market in the world and its BEV sales are more than doubling every year. Car MFRs are international and when all of China & the EU are BEV that's where all the money will go. There'll still be ICE sports car, but they'll be niche models like Lotus, and they'll be relatively slow. Like driving a steam-powered car now.

(3.) Youtube loves drag races
So that's what there's a lot of. I get the emotion of the but-who's-the-driver-&-other-factors argument, but it's also specious: is a Cayenne Turbo *ever* going to beat an X5M around the track in any equal round? No. So while a drag says zero about how much fun a car is, or how it feels, it's still an 80%+ accurate view of a car's performance in that scenario. My favorite type of car review is Savage Geese solely due to their engineering "on the lift" section & I like their audio section too. For my eyes, those are the best videos, but I'm not deranged by the drags. That's the real world, at least my real world: when I show up to run I routinely have no idea who's behind the wheel or how full their tank is, or how bald their tires are, or or or. I get why track-oriented folk would find this lack of formalism, structure, & rigor disturbing.

(4.) More people have more money for cars
Whether it's due to loose & cheap credit and/or the rich having such a larger piece of the pie they can buy 2 or 3 $80k vehicles no problem, people have money to spend and their spending it on luxury goods be it Rolexes or Porsches ... and the people who make luxury products are making more of them and dragging near-luxury product higher upmarket. I know a chick who lives in a $200k house she could just barely afford in rural Wisconsin with an $80k SUV.

(5.) Safety systems
The rise of cheap horsepower coincided with drive-by-wire everything. You can drive a Godzilla around the track with your foot to the floor the whole time.


We're in this golden era of car capabilities yet, to my eye, auto enthusiasts are more unhappy than ever. Am I wrong?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Granted, I wouldn't come close to even 50% I think of what the GT4 is going to be able to accomplish ... I want to be able to this time with a proper track car.

A few friendly questions:

(1.) How would you define "coming close to what the car is capable of"?
Drag race? Top 10% of fastest lap times on that track, of drivers of your skill level & weight, running the same gas tank level as you? What some other driver can do? What you could do if you spent the next 10 years tracking it 8 hours/day?

(2.) How many performance events do you expect to attend?
1/yr? 5/yr? 24/yr?

(3.) If you'll attend a few PEs / yr & otherwise you'll not come close to what the car is capable of, why not just rent a car for each PE?

(4.) If a few PEs & no renting & not close to its capabilities, why buy the car in the first place?


My thoughts on Close-to-capable-of
For me, I'm not concerned with "Coming close to what the car is capable of" because that's like drag races videos & all the same questions apply: who's driving? where? tires? tank? tune? etc etc. Maybe it's the core of opinion-difference with minn19. For me, the question isn't "what is the car capable of?" the question is "what am I capable of in that car?" ... but then first you gotta answer "what do I want to be capable of doing?"

Track driving?
Street hooning?
Canyon runs?
Drags?
Road course work?
Grocery-getting?
Showing off to my friends?
Garage detailing?
Road trips?
Mod platform?

Some/1/none/many/all of those? I suspect somewhere in there is why you're buying a GT4 despite not feeling you'll be using many of its capabilities often?


That's why for me the E9x is the WAY funner car around town: more fun, more dynamic, more engaging ... but I would still pick the F8x over it because I'm capable of more of what I want to be capable in, in the F8x.

And that's why I like the X5M over the Cayenne GTS - it allows me to be more capable in what I want to be capable in ...... AH HA! but that's the trick! what we want changes, and it's probable - likely? - that if I owned & got a lot of seat time with the Cayenne what I want to capable of would change. But that's a risk. I don't know.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

A few friendly questions:

(1.) How would you define "coming close to what the car is capable of"?
Drag race? Top 10% of fastest lap times on that track, of drivers of your skill level & weight, running the same gas tank level as you? What some other driver can do? What you could do if you spent the next 10 years tracking it 8 hours/day?

(2.) How many performance events do you expect to attend?
1/yr? 5/yr? 24/yr?

(3.) If you'll attend a few PEs / yr & otherwise you'll not come close to what the car is capable of, why not just rent a car for each PE?

(4.) If a few PEs & no renting & not close to its capabilities, why buy the car in the first place?


My thoughts on Close-to-capable-of
For me, I'm not concerned with "Coming close to what the car is capable of" because that's like drag races videos & all the same questions apply: who's driving? where? tires? tank? tune? etc etc. Maybe it's the core of opinion-difference with minn19. For me, the question isn't "what is the car capable of?" the question is "what am I capable of in that car?" ... but then first you gotta answer "what do I want to be capable of doing?"

Track driving?
Street hooning?
Canyon runs?
Drags?
Road course work?
Grocery-getting?
Showing off to my friends?
Garage detailing?
Road trips?
Mod platform?

Some/1/none/many/all of those? I suspect somewhere in there is why you're buying a GT4 despite not feeling you'll be using many of its capabilities often?


That's why for me the E9x is the WAY funner car around town: more fun, more dynamic, more engaging ... but I would still pick the F8x over it because I'm capable of more of what I want to be capable in, in the F8x.

And that's why I like the X5M over the Cayenne GTS - it allows me to be more capable in what I want to be capable in ...... AH HA! but that's the trick! what we want changes, and it's probable - likely? - that if I owned & got a lot of seat time with the Cayenne what I want to capable of would change. But that's a risk. I don't know.

I feel like you are fishing for a reason to own a car, which is why you currently don't have one or can't find one to satisfy what you would like in one. You said you always lease, but I never see you bring up that you bought a car out after its 3 year lease and keep it longer than that.

My reason for wanting the GT4 isn't anything aside from the fact that the car is what I want, regardless of what I am capable of bringing out in it when I drive. Driving on the street isn't like driving on track. It doesn't matter what I am able to do in it, what I care for is how the car makes me feel when I drive it. That is what matters to me. That is my personal definition of emotion or connected driving.

It isn't about road trips, showing off to friends, tracking or ANY of those reasons. I care little what people think or the reasons for me owning a car like this. Any one of these cars, the reasons are minute in my eyes. Even the X5M, especially the X5M, most owners are parents. Not single, young couple that want to hooligan about on the street.

I never drove my M3 or my M4 in the way I did when it comes to small track time I did. I want to learn about what the car is able to do, to better understand it. It is the same approach I take with the soon to be GT4. I like to learn, to know what it is able to do, not what I am capable of. Unless you are a professional driver, no regular pleb can really bring out all of a car like this. That video of Robert Kubica driving the M4 kinda proves my point. In all the years of ownership of a F80/F82, I gotten a pretty good idea of what the car is capable of doing and all the little things about it.

Considering you tend to know your finances pretty well. I am surprised you believe the X5M Comp (or otherwise) will hold its value better than a Cayenne GTS. Especially when the market corrects itself and it will eventually. I will be, very, very surprised if that ends up being the case market wise.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I agree with all of that, but which vehicle do you have that you're willing to - and WANT - to detune the engine cuz too much power?

If the answer is none, then you care about power. Are you actively looking for a lighter less powerful car? Are you gonna detune your Cayman?

No. So, then the rest of it is more of a sociology observation ... which, again, I agree with, but you DO care about power, it just maybe has diminishing returns **for any given vehicle**

Sure I care about some power, but it isn’t close to my number one requirement. I also used to ride organ donor bikes and if I wanted pure acceleration, I’d go back to those. I guess been there done that thing.

I like Savage Geese, Throttle House a lot and Chris Harris for my top reviewers. Also the much maligned here Jason Cammisa.

All the reviews I’ve read went right with my feelings on the test drives.

BMW X3456M supremely capable but numb and ultimately boring to drive most of the time.

Porsche Macan/Cayenne actually have some feel and are enjoyable to drive in a wider range of situations.

There are a ton of great/interesting cars out there so no I don’t think we are more unhappy than ever. I’d say for me BMW no longer really has any unless you want to pony up for a M2CS or M5CS. Or get a used one and all that goes with that.

I think the electric revolution is also why I don’t care about raw acceleration numbers. Soon enough everything is going to be 0-60 in 2.0 etc etc.

I agree with Arcades that it reads like you are trying to talk yourself into it but would love to try something else other than BMW. But the familiarity with the brand makes it the safe choice. Obviously you like to lease so BMWs are definitely the best at that in that case.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by minn19

Sure I care about some power, but it isn’t close to my number one requirement. I also used to ride organ donor bikes and if I wanted pure acceleration, I’d go back to those. I guess been there done that thing.

I like Savage Geese, Throttle House a lot and Chris Harris for my top reviewers. Also the much maligned here Jason Cammisa.

All the reviews I’ve read went right with my feelings on the test drives.

BMW X3456M supremely capable but numb and ultimately boring to drive most of the time.

Porsche Macan/Cayenne actually have some feel and are enjoyable to drive in a wider range of situations.

There are a ton of great/interesting cars out there so no I don’t think we are more unhappy than ever. I’d say for me BMW no longer really has any unless you want to pony up for a M2CS or M5CS. Or get a used one and all that goes with that.

I think the electric revolution is also why I don’t care about raw acceleration numbers. Soon enough everything is going to be 0-60 in 2.0 etc etc.

I agree with Arcades that it reads like you are trying to talk yourself into it but would love to try something else other than BMW. But the familiarity with the brand makes it the safe choice. Obviously you like to lease so BMWs are definitely the best at that in that case.

You can add the X1M to the list lol

Guess add the X2M too cuz why not at this point~

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I feel like you are fishing for a reason to own a car, which is why you currently don't have one or can't find one to satisfy what you would like in one. You said you always lease, but I never see you bring up that you bought a car out after its 3 year lease and keep it longer than that.

what I care for is how the car makes me feel when I drive it. That is what matters to me. That is my personal definition of emotion or connected driving.

the X5M, most owners are parents. Not single, young couple that want to hooligan about on the street.


no regular pleb can really bring out all of a car like this.

Considering you tend to know your finances pretty well. I am surprised you believe the X5M Comp (or otherwise) will hold its value better than a Cayenne GTS. Especially when the market corrects itself and it will eventually. I will be, very, very surprised if that ends up being the case market wise.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, lots of good stuff in here!

(1.) "Ownership"
For me, cash/check/charge has nothing to do with acquiring sole-use rights; I choose the cheapest means to it (and I put a price on risk, but many don't). E.g., people taking loans, the bank owns the car (and puts requirements on you for the loan like insurance). That's no different than a lease, except a lease is lower risk since you pre-negotiate the resale price up front ... but if the residual & MF are poor then the more risky loan might be cheaper ... and if the interest rate is high enough then a check is cheaper. There's no ownership distinction between financing mechanisms for me, which is why I don't mention it: it's irrelevant. For me at least.

(2.) Resale Value
You're absolutely right: any Porsche, will hold its value better than any BMW - if I said or implied different it was my error.

(3.) How a car makes you feel
"what I care for is how the car makes me feel when I drive it" Exactamundo, and that was my point That is, "bringing out the full capabilities" of any given car - no matter how it's defined - is kind of irrelevant then right? This is why I think car enthusiasts are more unhappy than ever: there's a dearth of "great feeling" cars ... and they're usually slower than the competition. I'm part of the problem: the E9x feels great to drive, but the F8x feels great to finish the drive. And BEVs make this equation even more complicated. The Golden Age of Horsepower & Car Tech isn't the nirvana we thought it would be.

(4.) X5M owners are parents not bachelor douchebags
TBH, I think the last of the single-guy BMW douchebags are X5M owners, at least judging from some of forum posters ... it's not a crowd I'd want to be a part of.


If I'm fishing for anything, it's who I am as a car enthusiast anymore

For this round, my need is quite a bit different: a homeless roadtrip machine for an indeterminate amount of time, so I wouldn't really say this choice is indicative of my performance car aspirations ... but it does cause me to ask: if I had a homebase, a garage, another daily driver vehicle, what's my dream vehicle?

I don't have one. I don't know if I've aged out or what. I still love well engineered conveyances like boats, cars, bikes, planes, etc, but ... maybe it's the bay area: I park next to a McLaren, Ferrari, Bentley, Lambo, a ton of Porsches, MBs, & I live on basically a drag strip so 20 hours/day pretty much every type of loud car & motorcycle goes by constantly. As I'm typing some kind of loud fancy Camaro is driving by. There's pretty much no car that's exciting me now. With that, the Porsche Cross Hybrid is interesting to me ... everything else is more/less functional.

Maybe I'm losing my enthusiast mojo??

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

I agree with Arcades that it reads like you are trying to talk yourself into it

If "it" is loving and being excited about any performance car, than yes

I won't be leasing this vehicle, numbers don't make sense, so it'll be a check or loan depending on the numbers (and I truly don't get why the bureaucratic financing mechanism would be relevant to anyone in getting excited about a car - maybe you guys can explain that one? Yay, these papers not those? );

and trying something else would fine, but I"m not willing to go to any unique lengths to do it because I truly am only mildly excited about the X5M, nothing else - though, as I mentioned, I don't know what I don't know but, again, right now with this vehicle, figuring out if that's true or not isn't really worth much to me.

I'm in a car funk.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Thanks for the thoughtful response, lots of good stuff in here!

(1.) "Ownership"
For me, cash/check/charge has nothing to do with acquiring sole-use rights; I choose the cheapest means to it (and I put a price on risk, but many don't). E.g., people taking loans, the bank owns the car (and puts requirements on you for the loan like insurance). That's no different than a lease, except a lease is lower risk since you pre-negotiate the resale price up front ... but if the residual & MF are poor then the more risky loan might be cheaper ... and if the interest rate is high enough then a check is cheaper. There's no ownership distinction between financing mechanisms for me, which is why I don't mention it: it's irrelevant. For me at least.

(2.) Resale Value
You're absolutely right: any Porsche, will hold its value better than any BMW - if I said or implied different it was my error.

(3.) How a car makes you feel
"what I care for is how the car makes me feel when I drive it" Exactamundo, and that was my point That is, "bringing out the full capabilities" of any given car - no matter how it's defined - is kind of irrelevant then right? This is why I think car enthusiasts are more unhappy than ever: there's a dearth of "great feeling" cars ... and they're usually slower than the competition. I'm part of the problem: the E9x feels great to drive, but the F8x feels great to finish the drive. And BEVs make this equation even more complicated. The Golden Age of Horsepower & Car Tech isn't the nirvana we thought it would be.

(4.) X5M owners are parents not bachelor douchebags
TBH, I think the last of the single-guy BMW douchebags are X5M owners, at least judging from some of forum posters ... it's not a crowd I'd want to be a part of.


If I'm fishing for anything, it's who I am as a car enthusiast anymore

For this round, my need is quite a bit different: a homeless roadtrip machine for an indeterminate amount of time, so I wouldn't really say this choice is indicative of my performance car aspirations ... but it does cause me to ask: if I had a homebase, a garage, another daily driver vehicle, what's my dream vehicle?

I don't have one. I don't know if I've aged out or what. I still love well engineered conveyances like boats, cars, bikes, planes, etc, but ... maybe it's the bay area: I park next to a McLaren, Ferrari, Bentley, Lambo, a ton of Porsches, MBs, & I live on basically a drag strip so 20 hours/day pretty much every type of loud car & motorcycle goes by constantly. As I'm typing some kind of loud fancy Camaro is driving by. There's pretty much no car that's exciting me now. With that, the Porsche Cross Hybrid is interesting to me ... everything else is more/less functional.

Maybe I'm losing my enthusiast mojo??

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If "it" is loving and being excited about any performance car, than yes

I won't be leasing this vehicle, numbers don't make sense, so it'll be a check or loan depending on the numbers (and I truly don't get why the bureaucratic financing mechanism would be relevant to anyone in getting excited about a car - maybe you guys can explain that one? Yay, these papers not those? );

and trying something else would fine, but I"m not willing to go to any unique lengths to do it because I truly am only mildly excited about the X5M, nothing else - though, as I mentioned, I don't know what I don't know but, again, right now with this vehicle, figuring out if that's true or not isn't really worth much to me.

I'm in a car funk.

There are a few things but what you are going through is very similar to what my uncle is going through himself. Oddly I don't think your ages are that different either.

This past year or two (or three really) he was unsure of what he wanted. He went from Bentley Bentayga, to considering a Lambo Urus, then to a Range Rover, then back to a Bentayga then reconsidered the newer G-Wagon when it started rolling out. Then ended up getting a used 18 G-Wagon, before selling that within a year (got profit out of it) and now has a Cayenne Coupe GTS on order after skipping on a 21 AMG G-Wagon he ORDERED. I was with him through the process while his son, my elder cousin (by a year) was telling him to just do the G-Wagon since it fits him and he has owned one before. He still didn't end up doing that either.

I will be surprised if he doesn't take the Cayenne Coupe GTS as he just wants something but that is up to him since he been flipping around a lot constantly.

One of the reasons why he said he didn't take delivery of that G-Wagon was the increased markup. While I understand that, but the markup increase wasn't huge or big enough like from 20k to 40k. 30k for G-Wagon's on markup was reasonable. Guess what? Now it is at 60k+. He hesitated because he STILL wasn't sure if he wanted the car, otherwise he wouldn't have. That is the other reason I'm sure he knows in his head he still wasn't sure. Because, if you know you want a car, then you won't hesitate on getting it if the price is reasonable.

My philosophy when it comes to cars is, if I hesitate on something when I order it, then I have a lot of reservations about it that would continue to bug me if I get it. I overthink a lot, it is something my GF has been telling me to try not to do so much. Oddly, car things are the one thing I don't tend to overthink about. If I do, then I don't get it the car. This was the reason why I wrote off the RS3 and the RS5 or any Audi currently because something about them and their price is why I don't see myself owning one. It is the reason why I wrote off the C63s because I didn't feel the need or reason for one. I had two F8x cars and the RS5 and C63s were within the same DNA. I'd just be changing skins and something a taaad different, which was pointless.

Did I hesitate with the Cayman GT4? No, I never did hesitate. I did on the timing as my original timing was not great. I couldn't do it right after I signed for our Macan GTS, so I held off until the 22s came around when I was sure I had everything I needed to do it. Yeah, that cost me markup but considering the price of markup now, compared to what I am paying for it, it is good enough for me. Others would probably pay more than me. I mentioned someone tried to buy my allocation for 30k+ on top of what I paid for and that is currently, something close to normal for SoCal dealerships. I also know that, I will definitely keep my GT4 so, paying a little markup in the long run is no issue.

If I have any sort of recommendation is, if you have reservations then don't do it, or you will still have this problem after lease ends as you cannot settle on something that would satisfy you. There are a lot of strengths in leasing. New car and what not, you don't tend to have to worry about things after a certain period but we all eventually want to just settle on something. That was the case for my uncle, who leased cars most of his life. His son (my cousin) settled with his 997 GT3 RS (3.8L). My aunt also eventually settled for her Mini, choosing not to do another one after many years of the same thing. My uncle continued but now he is unsure of what he wants because he has gone through so many that he can't find one to satisfy "something". My uncle doesn't want to settle on a car that will cost him money in the future for resale, it seems like you are feeling exactly the same thing. He is more than rich and hides his wealth very well, but he is also Taiwanese and picky (like a lot of us from Taiwan are). I would... personally avoid BMW strictly on resale as BMW has never been known for that. Yeah, it changed recently but don't expect that to stay the way it is.

For me, there is no better car to really settle with than a Porsche GT car. Which is why I am settling with one. The rest of, whatever I own in the future will be leases and I won't be keeping them. They won't be as expensive either.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If "it" is loving and being excited about any performance car, than yes

I won't be leasing this vehicle, numbers don't make sense, so it'll be a check or loan depending on the numbers (and I truly don't get why the bureaucratic financing mechanism would be relevant to anyone in getting excited about a car - maybe you guys can explain that one? Yay, these papers not those? );

and trying something else would fine, but I"m not willing to go to any unique lengths to do it because I truly am only mildly excited about the X5M, nothing else - though, as I mentioned, I don't know what I don't know but, again, right now with this vehicle, figuring out if that's true or not isn't really worth much to me.

I'm in a car funk.

I agree with the getting old part and it affecting the car passion thing. I honestly don't know what my dream car is either anymore. I think a 911 GTS next to the Cayman would be about as good as it gets. There really are no Lambos or Ferraris that do much for me. Maybe a McLaren.........but here is where the old part comes in, I don't know where the eff I'd drive the thing or feel comfortable parking it etc. I know you could say that about Porsches etc but they don't seem as in your face as those other brands. I could be wrong on that. I'm sure I'd change my mind once I drove one though.

Arcades, maybe its the getting old thing to affecting this opinion as well. I think the GT or bust when it comes to Porsches is way overhyped. Even their base 2.0 T Cayman/Boxster are blast to drive. Same with a base 911 even if it doesn't come with an LSD, more oddly they don't offer it in a manual. For my old and apparently more conservative car ass the GTS is the sweet spot for me on nearly every Porsche model. Don't get me wrong, I love the GT cars but don't pine for them like I used to.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

I agree with the getting old part and it affecting the car passion thing.

I think the GT or bust when it comes to Porsches is way overhyped. Even their base 2.0 T Cayman/Boxster are blast to drive.

My wife reminded me last night I qualify for AARP now

Cars I get excited about are:

* Most of the performance SUVs, for SUV stuff though
* Highlander Hybrid - super great at utility and anonymity w/ 600mi of range!
* Lotus - these are the most fun / $ for my butt, albeit with compromises
* 1986/7 Porsche 911 Turbo - if I had a garage setup I'd look for one

Nick Murray made a great video about his new convertible 90s Porsche and basically said how much more fun it is that anything new.

I think that's where I'm at ... but given my lifestyle, I won't be getting one of those!

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

My wife reminded me last night I qualify for AARP now

Cars I get excited about are:

* Most of the performance SUVs, for SUV stuff though
* Highlander Hybrid - super great at utility and anonymity w/ 600mi of range!
* Lotus - these are the most fun / $ for my butt, albeit with compromises
* 1986/7 Porsche 911 Turbo - if I had a garage setup I'd look for one

Nick Murray made a great video about his new convertible 90s Porsche and basically said how much more fun it is that anything new.

I think that's where I'm at ... but given my lifestyle, I won't be getting one of those!

The new Lotus’s are really cool. I can see you getting some sort of performance SUV. Most likely the X5M as it does sound like it ticks most of the boxes of what you really like while fitting into your lifestyle.

It’s funny you bring up that year of Porsche. My Uncle had one from that era and my Cayman is the closest thing that’s come to replicating that car from a feeling standpoint.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

It’s funny you bring up that year of Porsche. My Uncle had one from that era and my Cayman is the closest thing that’s come to replicating that car from a feeling standpoint.

Yeah, I think that was about peak mechanical vehicle era, depending on model, but for Porsche that's mine.

After that, all the stuff that initially seemed like improvements, in retrospect, was a transitional step to a sports BEV that's not quite here yet.

It's kinda like Carl Lewis - he was maybe the last great made-from-scratch olympian ... i.e., likely not on too many PEDs, but raised to be an athlete. Before him, there wasn't enough money or time to let a kid be an athlete full time and after him the PEDs have gotten out of control and soon we'll have DNA-engineered athletes.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by minn19

I agree with the getting old part and it affecting the car passion thing. I honestly don't know what my dream car is either anymore. I think a 911 GTS next to the Cayman would be about as good as it gets. There really are no Lambos or Ferraris that do much for me. Maybe a McLaren.........but here is where the old part comes in, I don't know where the eff I'd drive the thing or feel comfortable parking it etc. I know you could say that about Porsches etc but they don't seem as in your face as those other brands. I could be wrong on that. I'm sure I'd change my mind once I drove one though.

Arcades, maybe its the getting old thing to affecting this opinion as well. I think the GT or bust when it comes to Porsches is way overhyped. Even their base 2.0 T Cayman/Boxster are blast to drive. Same with a base 911 even if it doesn't come with an LSD, more oddly they don't offer it in a manual. For my old and apparently more conservative car ass the GTS is the sweet spot for me on nearly every Porsche model. Don't get me wrong, I love the GT cars but don't pine for them like I used to.

Part of the reason I fell for the GT4 is the looks, I really won't lie about that but that is also the reason I got into the F8x initially because I loved how the car looks. It was after that I started to learn more about the car and fell more in love with the car after.

There were things about the car (GT4) that I had liked beforehand, purely from an engineering perspective and what the car represents. It is also the typical progression from a BMW to something like a Porsche.

If I was to settle for a 911, I think I would be okay with a GTS over the GT3. Part of it has to do with cost actually but Cayman/Boxster wise, it would be the GT4. If I would be really stupid, I pick up a 718 Cayman S next to my GT4.