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      02-03-2021, 02:32 AM   #2421
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Given Porsche more/less bought & owns VAG versus the other way around, Porsche has been able to create this protected niche group that can siphon resources away from the mothership (emissions, parts, people, R&D €/$, etc), but also stay completely insulated from VAG bullshit. You can really see how this is true with Audi in BEVs: they've run into most of the same problems as VW with software, batteries, systems, etc - but Porsche has gone down a completely separate path in both systems and software; you'll see many VAG parts in porsches, but not many porsche innovations in VAG (unless they want them to be).

In short, Porsche product people have the dream setup and their products reflect that ... but I have feeling with the current board fights and Diess challenging for more power that's about to end ... we'll see!
I don't know much about VAG EVs and their issues - if you've got link, send it - but I can confirm from my first-hand experience that there is a lot of bullshit going on in the VW Group. Deep down, they act like totally separate entities that do not want to have anything to do with their "friends."

Every passenger car company in the Group is greedy and they more-or-less hate each other. Without naming the opposite party, I can tell you that Porsche earns a metric fuckton selling parts (production and aftersales) to another brand... And that manufacturer wanted to do stuff on their own, which would have saved them a lot of money while employing local businesses, but Porsche said NOPE, you must buy more of our parts or you don't get anything from us.

It's a great system for a big company like Porsche that's got a lot of leverage, I tell you that, and is one of the main reasons why Porsche is pretty much on top of the tech advancement, quality & reliability at VAG.
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      02-03-2021, 10:17 AM   #2422
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Meh



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      02-03-2021, 10:23 AM   #2423
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Just watched, looks real good. A lot of interesting stuff in the press release, seems like a lot of focus went into making these excellent track vehicles.
Awesome, I was actually tuned in right until the end, they were showcasing all the right things, can't say the same about BMW's latest PR...
Shame we'll never see any on this side of the pond but certainly looks promising, good on them!
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      02-03-2021, 10:27 AM   #2424
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Yeah, you'd have to be a ///MDummy to buy this pile of crap lol

When the DCT came out it was literally the best of both worlds and a huge improvement over SMGII/III. But this ZF8 auto slushbox stuff is just not motorsports in any way. Notice the lack of enthusiasm from these "technical" guys. I mean, at least with Biermann, you can hear his enthusiasm and pride come through. These guys come off really forced and uncomfortable. No pride at all in these cars. What a way to end the era of ICE...
Think I was reading this ZF8 takes twice as long to shift than the outgoing DCT? That speaks volumes to me, this was not the choice of auto that should have ended up in this car.
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      02-03-2021, 10:39 AM   #2425
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Meh



Agree, I like how the previous gen looked. They aren't horrible though and the red one is pretty nice.
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      02-03-2021, 11:49 AM   #2426
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I don't like the rear of of the red one, reminds of those stupid GT cars BMW made. Not even sure what the name is for them as they are in between a sedan and a hatchback. Looks like the entire back end of that red one opens up whereas the blue is a traditional sedan with a trunk.
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      02-03-2021, 12:17 PM   #2427
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
C-class not having more than two liters of displacement is much worse than our Munich lads sniffing cocaine in their design studios.

Cadillac is doing a hail Mary and it really shows. The Germans are taking a different approach.
Even if those 2 liters are augmented by 7x (probably 8x) F1 World Championship hybrid tech, with Lewis as the face of that powertrain evolution??

Good luck competing against AMG & Lewis with the target audience. Believe the Munich lads probably should have invested in motorsport instead of cocaine.

If they stick with 6 (I doubt it), BMW's 2 cylinder "advantage" won't mean anything to the audience they're now targeting.

Agreed on all next gens being hybrid. The G8X design over substance approach looks more like the hail mary. They're about to be walloped by AMG on hybrid tech and all associated marketing, but maybe they can preempt with beavers, M town passes, and hype rims.

For me, the moral of the story on Cadillac is that they know their V audience is limited. They'll get a handful of converts from M and AMG with these Blackwings, maybe a few Panamera buyers.

But as final ice V series models they still decided to give their customer base the very best possible https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...-gas-v-series/

Looks aside, compare the performance substance of the Blackwings and press release to everything G8X.
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      02-03-2021, 12:21 PM   #2428
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Agree, I like how the previous gen looked. They aren't horrible though and the red one is pretty nice.
It's better looking than the G80/G82, that is for sure!
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      02-03-2021, 12:29 PM   #2429
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It's better looking than the G80/G82, that is for sure!
Would take the ATS Blackwing over the G8X. No hesitation.
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      02-03-2021, 12:51 PM   #2430
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It's better looking than the G80/G82, that is for sure!
Agreed, I didn't think it needed to be said.
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      02-03-2021, 02:34 PM   #2431
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Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
C-class not having more than two liters of displacement is much worse than our Munich lads sniffing cocaine in their design studios.

Cadillac is doing a hail Mary and it really shows. The Germans are taking a different approach.
Even if those 2 liters are augmented by 7x (probably 8x) F1 World Championship hybrid tech, with Lewis as the face of that powertrain evolution??

Good luck competing against AMG & Lewis with the target audience. Believe the Munich lads probably should have invested in motorsport instead of cocaine.

If they stick with 6 (I doubt it), BMW's 2 cylinder "advantage" won't mean anything to the audience they're now targeting.

Agreed on all next gens being hybrid. The G8X design over substance approach looks more like the hail mary. They're about to be walloped by AMG on hybrid tech and all associated marketing, but maybe they can preempt with beavers, M town passes, and hype rims.

For me, the moral of the story on Cadillac is that they know their V audience is limited. They'll get a handful of converts from M and AMG with these Blackwings, maybe a few Panamera buyers.

But as final ice V series models they still decided to give their customer base the very best possible https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...-gas-v-series/

Looks aside, compare the performance substance of the Blackwings and press release to everything G8X.
I probably wouldn't be as excited about big engines had I grown up in the US where even Ford Transits have twin-turbo V6s.

It can have as much torque as possible, I just don't see how a hybrid four-pot can be as exciting as a big gas V8.

When the time comes, I'll attempt to care about performance hybrids and EVs; got many decades left for that. At the end of the day, it's all we're gonna have in the future so I want to ride the last bit of the ICE wave out as long as I can. Totally wouldn't mind an EV hatchback for driving round town, though.

The CT5V does seem like a total bargain given the performance and price. Good on them. They just need to find some people to buy their product which has been an issue for V Cadillacs, hasn't it.
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      02-03-2021, 02:54 PM   #2432
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I probably wouldn't be as excited about big engines had I grown up in the US where even Ford Transits have twin-turbo V6s.

It can have as much torque as possible, I just don't see how a hybrid four-pot can be as exciting as a big gas V8.

When the time comes, I'll attempt to care about performance hybrids and EVs; got many decades left for that. At the end of the day, it's all we're gonna have in the future so I want to ride the last bit of the ICE wave out as long as I can. Totally wouldn't mind an EV hatchback for driving round town, though.

The CT5V does seem like a total bargain given the performance and price. Good on them. They just need to find some people to buy their product which has been an issue for V Cadillacs, hasn't it.
You're preaching to the choir on V8's.

Borrowed ATS-V sales #'s from a Cadillac forum

2016 - 2018 ATS-V
Total Sedan 2419
Total Coupe 1902
Total All 4321

16,057 F80 M3's sold in the U.S. for reference.
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      02-03-2021, 03:47 PM   #2433
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BTW, thought I'd share a real technical transmission video from the former BMW M division that made real M cars

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      02-03-2021, 03:50 PM   #2434
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I love how the mods keep pushing G8X photos to the front page, as if we haven't already seen what the car looks like in white, blue and gray already a thousand different times.
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      02-03-2021, 04:42 PM   #2435
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
I love how the mods keep pushing G8X photos to the front page, as if we haven't already seen what the car looks like in white, blue and gray already a thousand different times.
It's always been like that... Then there will be threads on first customer deliveries; iND testing spacers; Akrapovic exhaust release... and maybe, sometimes in 2024, first press articles and videos. Only difference now is, there's nothing new coming in about the G80 other than photos from social media and very sporadic first impressions from folks who've seen it at public events.

I remember that back in early 2014, dude in Dubai picked his F80 up three months earlier than anyone else and so was the first customer to have the new generation. Gave us vbox data even. Thread was like 70 pages long. Wonder if that's gonna be surpassed given the current lack of engagement.
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      02-03-2021, 07:02 PM   #2436
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
It's always been like that... Then there will be threads on first customer deliveries; iND testing spacers; Akrapovic exhaust release... and maybe, sometimes in 2024, first press articles and videos. Only difference now is, there's nothing new coming in about the G80 other than photos from social media and very sporadic first impressions from folks who've seen it at public events.

I remember that back in early 2014, dude in Dubai picked his F80 up three months earlier than anyone else and so was the first customer to have the new generation. Gave us vbox data even. Thread was like 70 pages long. Wonder if that's gonna be surpassed given the current lack of engagement.
70 pages of "See??? The grilles don't look that bad!!"
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      02-03-2021, 07:20 PM   #2437
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Originally Posted by MFNATIK View Post
BTW, thought I'd share a real technical transmission video from the former BMW M division that made real M cars

I'm wondering what the reason is now to buy an M4 over an M440i ? Is there anything other than a modest tune?

On previous gens, the transmission was a huge differentiator for me. The chassis stiffness. CF driveshaft. Rear diff?

Now, what's really left other than software, and some badges? Could most people tell the difference from the inside driving them back to back? (I would honestly like to know the answer to this question!)
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      02-03-2021, 07:48 PM   #2438
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Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I'm wondering what the reason is now to buy an M4 over an M440i ? Is there anything other than a modest tune?

On previous gens, the transmission was a huge differentiator for me. The chassis stiffness. CF driveshaft. Rear diff?

Now, what's really left other than software, and some badges? Could most people tell the difference from the inside driving them back to back? (I would honestly like to know the answer to this question!)
This is what I've been thinking - it seems like there's less to differentiate regular and M models than ever before. Having driven the M and non-M of the 5 series and X3, they do feel a bit like a higher trim level rather than a different machine. Obviously Ms bear similarities to the regular cars that they are built off of, but going between the E46, E92, and F3X/F8X M & Non-M cars feel like wolves vs dogs rather than just top of the pack. Like why would anybody buy an M5 over and M550i or an M8 over a M850i given their intended use as street and touring vehicles? We've clearly reached a point where you can't sell a special car just on power anymore, it's a party trick that every one knows how to do now for cheap. So I would have hoped that M would do literally anything but take the path of least resistance and churn out German Hellcats. None of this matters though because from a shareholder's perspective, BMW is pivoting before our eyes and trying to increase its value threshold by any means necessary. For now that means milking the "M" brand as it reforms into a fully focused EV car company.

FWIW I actually really like the G30 M550i as a daily/cruiser and they will be a massive bargain after they slide down the absolutely brutal 5 series depreciation curve. With 500hp available in a bog-standard car and the fantastic ride comfort of this generation... I literally do not even see the point of a more powerful, less comfortable M5.
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      02-03-2021, 08:59 PM   #2439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I'm wondering what the reason is now to buy an M4 over an M440i ? Is there anything other than a modest tune?

On previous gens, the transmission was a huge differentiator for me. The chassis stiffness. CF driveshaft. Rear diff?

Now, what's really left other than software, and some badges? Could most people tell the difference from the inside driving them back to back? (I would honestly like to know the answer to this question!)
Only thing would be the engine. M cars still have their S engines compared to the Baby M cars with a standard tuned engine.

Aside from some of the chassis changes, I don't think it's a big must now.
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      02-03-2021, 09:26 PM   #2440
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Originally Posted by MFNATIK View Post
BTW, thought I'd share a real technical transmission video from the former BMW M division that made real M cars

Notice how at the end of the video the car is in motion and being driven? Why haven't they highlighted any driving shots in the G80 promotional videos? It's as if they know their "new" customer base don't care about how it drives. They just want bling, 0-60 bragging rights, and a badge.
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      02-03-2021, 09:29 PM   #2441
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
I love how the mods keep pushing G8X photos to the front page, as if we haven't already seen what the car looks like in white, blue and gray already a thousand different times.
I mean... they kind of have to. It's not like there is any news on the F8X and this is the next big release regardless of what we think.
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      02-03-2021, 09:33 PM   #2442
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Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
I love how the mods keep pushing G8X photos to the front page, as if we haven't already seen what the car looks like in white, blue and gray already a thousand different times.
I can't even tell you how many times I've submitted this one with no luck so far

They're SOOOoooo selective!

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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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