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      12-09-2020, 04:45 PM   #1321
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Originally Posted by FlyingLow78 View Post
That looks like it was designed in Korea ten years ago. No. Just no.
Hot off the press....
https://www.bmwblog.com/2020/12/09/b...gets-rendered/



My eyes!
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      12-09-2020, 05:10 PM   #1322
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
Hey, I come to this thread daily too lol! But its important to be critical and objective on the brand we've loved and followed through the years and not drink the kool aid that is being sloshed around by fanboys and influencers.

*Soapbox*
True motorsport is brand irrelevant and irreverent. BMW has for years, had strong motorsport DNA and that has drawn folks like us here on this thread to the brand. I think what worries me, at least, is that I sense a seismic shift in the latest products and marketing, they have been subtle rumblings in the past but the latest products confirm this shift.

It's unfortunate, but its the pressure of corporate earnings to meet street expectations, shareholders etc. In the short run, companies chase markets (Asia, grille design etc.) and revenue streams (M badge slapping), but the pressure on cost control will limit bespoke platforms (weight gain, less lightweight panels, rigorous testing).

BMW, as much as we love it, isn't Porsche. Its more mainstream in its client composition, so margins are lower overall than Porsche. You can see their (BMW) efforts to go upstream (M8, M6) to push margins.

I actually think that Porsche benefits from being under VW (material costs, synergies of production) as their client is not the middle income demographic. Being smaller, they truly benefit from the resources from a giant like VW. The concern there is that VW doesn't kill the goose by chasing margins. So far, they've done a decent job with the bespoke brands they have.

Hence, the F80 to me was a flash in the pan product for BMW. It is a platform with outstanding performance the punches above its weight and is fairly competitive with an equivalent P-car. Reliability, build quality, cooling, weight reduction were all taken into account. That's rare (and it was an entirely 180 degree about face from the e9x) and that is why we were hoping for the continuation of this trend in the G8x.

Grille aside, if fundamentally, the G8x had just a slight weight increase and some motorsport based technology improvement to set the car apart(no, drift meters DO NOT count), I think there would not have been a large backlash. What we got instead, was more weight and polarizing design and what seemed like flashy bits (JDM exterior, interior, bejeweled glass shifter knobs etc., drift meters). Anyone want to guess 5-10 years from now, if the car will be remembered for these features?

Implicit in the ads is the message that the M3/M4 is not about motorsports any longer. It's about a lifestyle, not about track performance and I think that has got purists like us riled up because of what it means for the M3/4 going forward.

The motorsport DNA could be at risk here as they chase what its faddish in markets/culture. BMW has been leaning a lot on its motorsport heritage to sell cars in the last few decades. They seem to be forgetting what appealed to the purists as they chase revenue. With each new gen, it seems less motorsport focused.

More worryingly, it appears that the people in BMW M that are connected with its motorsport past (Biermann and his crew- people who were responsible for the design of the F8x platform), have left. Will there be another generation of like minds in BMW M? Or will it be left to bean counters and lifestyle mavens?

*Steps off soapbox*

P.S. I didn't intend to pen such a long post but got carried away .
You nailed it. Very well said. A good thorough analysis
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      12-09-2020, 06:05 PM   #1323
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Originally Posted by BzsBimmer View Post
^ I think you hit a lot of valid points in your doctorate thesis. I enjoyed it.

BMW should have a separate arm that is more like Porsche and is driver oriented. Sure, higher prices but Iím sure purists and enthusiasts will support with their wallets. Look at the GTS.
They used to...........
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      12-09-2020, 10:21 PM   #1324
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Originally Posted by BzsBimmer View Post
^ I think you hit a lot of valid points in your doctorate thesis. I enjoyed it.

BMW should have a separate arm that is more like Porsche and is driver oriented. Sure, higher prices but Iím sure purists and enthusiasts will support with their wallets. Look at the GTS.
BMW should simply own up to the fact that ///M now stands for ///Marketing.
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      12-09-2020, 10:37 PM   #1325
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BMW should simply own up to the fact that ///M now stands for ///Marketing.
Oh I think they already signaled that with ///Kith
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      12-10-2020, 01:50 AM   #1326
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
Hey, I come to this thread daily too lol! But its important to be critical and objective on the brand we've loved and followed through the years and not drink the kool aid that is being sloshed around by fanboys and influencers.

*Soapbox*
True motorsport is brand irrelevant and irreverent. BMW has for years, had strong motorsport DNA and that has drawn folks like us here on this thread to the brand. I think what worries me, at least, is that I sense a seismic shift in the latest products and marketing, they have been subtle rumblings in the past but the latest products confirm this shift.

It's unfortunate, but its the pressure of corporate earnings to meet street expectations, shareholders etc. In the short run, companies chase markets (Asia, grille design etc.) and revenue streams (M badge slapping), but the pressure on cost control will limit bespoke platforms (weight gain, less lightweight panels, rigorous testing).

BMW, as much as we love it, isn't Porsche. Its more mainstream in its client composition, so margins are lower overall than Porsche. You can see their (BMW) efforts to go upstream (M8, M6) to push margins.

I actually think that Porsche benefits from being under VW (material costs, synergies of production) as their client is not the middle income demographic. Being smaller, they truly benefit from the resources from a giant like VW. The concern there is that VW doesn't kill the goose by chasing margins. So far, they've done a decent job with the bespoke brands they have.

Hence, the F80 to me was a flash in the pan product for BMW. It is a platform with outstanding performance the punches above its weight and is fairly competitive with an equivalent P-car. Reliability, build quality, cooling, weight reduction were all taken into account. That's rare (and it was an entirely 180 degree about face from the e9x) and that is why we were hoping for the continuation of this trend in the G8x.

Grille aside, if fundamentally, the G8x had just a slight weight increase and some motorsport based technology improvement to set the car apart(no, drift meters DO NOT count), I think there would not have been a large backlash. What we got instead, was more weight and polarizing design and what seemed like flashy bits (JDM exterior, interior, bejeweled glass shifter knobs etc., drift meters). Anyone want to guess 5-10 years from now, if the car will be remembered for these features?

Implicit in the ads is the message that the M3/M4 is not about motorsports any longer. It's about a lifestyle, not about track performance and I think that has got purists like us riled up because of what it means for the M3/4 going forward.

The motorsport DNA could be at risk here as they chase what its faddish in markets/culture. BMW has been leaning a lot on its motorsport heritage to sell cars in the last few decades. They seem to be forgetting what appealed to the purists as they chase revenue. With each new gen, it seems less motorsport focused.

More worryingly, it appears that the people in BMW M that are connected with its motorsport past (Biermann and his crew- people who were responsible for the design of the F8x platform), have left. Will there be another generation of like minds in BMW M? Or will it be left to bean counters and lifestyle mavens?

*Steps off soapbox*

P.S. I didn't intend to pen such a long post but got carried away .
Well said
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      12-10-2020, 07:26 AM   #1327
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
Hey, I come to this thread daily too lol! But its important to be critical and objective on the brand we've loved and followed through the years and not drink the kool aid that is being sloshed around by fanboys and influencers.

*Soapbox*
True motorsport is brand irrelevant and irreverent. BMW has for years, had strong motorsport DNA and that has drawn folks like us here on this thread to the brand. I think what worries me, at least, is that I sense a seismic shift in the latest products and marketing, they have been subtle rumblings in the past but the latest products confirm this shift.

It's unfortunate, but its the pressure of corporate earnings to meet street expectations, shareholders etc. In the short run, companies chase markets (Asia, grille design etc.) and revenue streams (M badge slapping), but the pressure on cost control will limit bespoke platforms (weight gain, less lightweight panels, rigorous testing).

BMW, as much as we love it, isn't Porsche. Its more mainstream in its client composition, so margins are lower overall than Porsche. You can see their (BMW) efforts to go upstream (M8, M6) to push margins.

I actually think that Porsche benefits from being under VW (material costs, synergies of production) as their client is not the middle income demographic. Being smaller, they truly benefit from the resources from a giant like VW. The concern there is that VW doesn't kill the goose by chasing margins. So far, they've done a decent job with the bespoke brands they have.

Hence, the F80 to me was a flash in the pan product for BMW. It is a platform with outstanding performance the punches above its weight and is fairly competitive with an equivalent P-car. Reliability, build quality, cooling, weight reduction were all taken into account. That's rare (and it was an entirely 180 degree about face from the e9x) and that is why we were hoping for the continuation of this trend in the G8x.

Grille aside, if fundamentally, the G8x had just a slight weight increase and some motorsport based technology improvement to set the car apart(no, drift meters DO NOT count), I think there would not have been a large backlash. What we got instead, was more weight and polarizing design and what seemed like flashy bits (JDM exterior, interior, bejeweled glass shifter knobs etc., drift meters). Anyone want to guess 5-10 years from now, if the car will be remembered for these features?

Implicit in the ads is the message that the M3/M4 is not about motorsports any longer. It's about a lifestyle, not about track performance and I think that has got purists like us riled up because of what it means for the M3/4 going forward.

The motorsport DNA could be at risk here as they chase what its faddish in markets/culture. BMW has been leaning a lot on its motorsport heritage to sell cars in the last few decades. They seem to be forgetting what appealed to the purists as they chase revenue. With each new gen, it seems less motorsport focused.

More worryingly, it appears that the people in BMW M that are connected with its motorsport past (Biermann and his crew- people who were responsible for the design of the F8x platform), have left. Will there be another generation of like minds in BMW M? Or will it be left to bean counters and lifestyle mavens?

*Steps off soapbox*

P.S. I didn't intend to pen such a long post but got carried away .
Nice write up

As a tidbit, Porsche was so successful as an independent company and was sitting on so much cash, it almost bought VW. In a tug of war between cousins, Piech outwitted Porsche and VW ended up owning Porsche. But it could have easily gone the other way.

I also don’t agree with your assessment of the E9X M3. In its era, it also performed above its class and could outperform a 911 of that era on track.
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      12-10-2020, 07:29 AM   #1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BzsBimmer View Post
^ I think you hit a lot of valid points in your doctorate thesis. I enjoyed it.

BMW should have a separate arm that is more like Porsche and is driver oriented. Sure, higher prices but Iím sure purists and enthusiasts will support with their wallets. Look at the GTS.
Thatís the gripe most of us have: ///M used to be that ďseparate armĒ
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      12-10-2020, 07:44 AM   #1329
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
As a tidbit, Porsche was so successful as an independent company and was sitting on so much cash, it almost bought VW. In a tug of war between cousins, Piech outwitted Porsche and VW ended up owning Porsche. But it could have easily gone the other way.

I also don’t agree with your assessment of the E9X M3. In its era, it also performed above its class and could outperform a 911 of that era on track.
Yes, I remember that. Porsche really had themselves to blame, scheming with a derivatives play on VW and got caught with a short squeeze which they essentially got a margin call. This got them in financial trouble, which made them vulnerable to a VW takeover. It was a little hilarious to read if you weren’t Porsche.

I don’t didn’t mean to imply that the all the prior gen M3s were not capable of being competitive with Porsches in races but I think in trims available to consumers, it was not as competitive. The E9x platform had rod bearing issues, needed additional cooling on track and was heavier than the outgoing E46 M3. The F8x’s cooling is a dramatic improvement over the E9x (just by itself, improving the overall reliability of the engine) and other tidbits like a closed deck design. I wouldn’t have considered the F8x if Biermann hadn’t made those design changes and would have just gotten a 911.1 S.

P.S. I realized that I misspoke, its been such a long time since I read the case but Porsche was planning to secretly buy out VW. The great financial recession caused VW’s shares to crater in value, forcing a liquidity crisis at Porsche. They did use derivatives in addition to equity purchases and that just made it worse when the share value cratered. Still, at that time, VW was bigger than Porsche, but Porsche needed a 75% stake in VW. In reality, I wouldn’t say that Porsche got outwitted, rather they got greedy by using options and chased the acquistion. In the end, the trade got too big and overwhelmed the capacity of Porsche when it crashed. If they had not over-reached, their plan would have succeeded when VW AG’s stock cratered, they could have just swooped in and purchased the shares. The over-reach here was not watching your liquidity levels; same as Bear Stearns, Lehman, Countrywide etc. Their use of derivatives signaled leverage as they couldn’t buy VW outright with cash on hand; it also signaled that they were reaching. The market is dangerous like that; once news of their intent was signaled and their liquidity situation was known; I wouldn’t be surprised if it was revealed that VW had ‘allowed’ their share price to fall to put tremendous stress at Porsche.

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      12-10-2020, 09:08 AM   #1330
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Originally Posted by CT_M3 View Post
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
As a tidbit, Porsche was so successful as an independent company and was sitting on so much cash, it almost bought VW. In a tug of war between cousins, Piech outwitted Porsche and VW ended up owning Porsche. But it could have easily gone the other way.

I also don't agree with your assessment of the E9X M3. In its era, it also performed above its class and could outperform a 911 of that era on track.
Yes, I remember that. Porsche really had themselves to blame, scheming with a derivatives play on VW and got caught with a short squeeze which they essentially got a margin call. This got them in financial trouble, which made them vulnerable to a VW takeover. It was a little hilarious to read if you weren't Porsche.

I don't didn't mean to imply that the all the prior gen M3s were not capable of being competitive with Porsches in races but I think in trims available to consumers, it was not as competitive. The E9x platform had rod bearing issues, needed additional cooling on track and was heavier than the outgoing E46 M3. The F8x's cooling is a dramatic improvement over the E9x (just by itself, improving the overall reliability of the engine) and other tidbits like a closed deck design. I wouldn't have considered the F8x if Biermann hadn't made those design changes and would have just gotten a 911.1 S.

P.S. I realized that I misspoke, its been such a long time since I read the case but Porsche was planning to secretly buy out VW. The great financial recession caused VW's shares to crater in value, forcing a liquidity crisis at Porsche. They did use derivatives in addition to equity purchases and that just made it worse when the share value cratered. Still, at that time, VW was bigger than Porsche, but Porsche needed a 75% stake in VW. In reality, I wouldn't say that Porsche got outwitted, rather they got greedy by using options and chased the acquistion. In the end, the trade got too big and overwhelmed the capacity of Porsche when it crashed. If they had not over-reached, their plan would have succeeded when VW AG's stock cratered, they could have just swooped in and purchased the shares. The over-reach here was not watching your liquidity levels; same as Bear Stearns, Lehman, Countrywide etc. Their use of derivatives signaled leverage as they couldn't buy VW outright with cash on hand; it also signaled that they were reaching. The market is dangerous like that; once news of their intent was signaled and their liquidity situation was known; I wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed that VW had 'allowed' their share price to fall to put tremendous stress at Porsche.
I remember those times. I was hoping VW bought Porsche and made a high performance Golf R. The MK8 looks good on paper. I'll definitely be checking that car in 2022; long time from now 😭

Yup; the early Cayenne had VW parts. The engine and Transmission was said to be Porsche.
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      12-10-2020, 09:37 AM   #1331
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I remember those times. I was hoping VW bought Porsche and made a high performance Golf R. The MK8 looks good on paper. I'll definitely be checking that car in 2022; long time from now 😭

Yup; the early Cayenne had VW parts. The engine and Transmission was said to be Porsche.
Indeed, the Cayenne/Touareg was a VW/Porsche joint venture.
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      12-10-2020, 10:18 AM   #1332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
BMW should simply own up to the fact that ///M now stands for ///Marketing.
Oh I think they already signaled that with ///Kith
This was signaled long before Kith and long before the G8X, but then you had owners of the lower M-Performance labeled cars telling legit M owners that they were being sensitive, had too much ego, etc.
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      12-10-2020, 11:26 AM   #1333
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This was signaled long before Kith and long before the G8X, but then you had owners of the lower M-Performance labeled cars telling legit M owners that they were being sensitive, had too much ego, etc.
I think they just made it "official" now?

Cars aside, how are you doing? Things settling down at all for you in your job or is still nuttier than usual?

Also, I vote you get a M2 CS so I can selfishly hear your impression of it etc.
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      12-10-2020, 02:09 PM   #1334
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
This was signaled long before Kith and long before the G8X, but then you had owners of the lower M-Performance labeled cars telling legit M owners that they were being sensitive, had too much ego, etc.
I think they just made it "official" now?

Cars aside, how are you doing? Things settling down at all for you in your job or is still nuttier than usual?

Also, I vote you get a M2 CS so I can selfishly hear your impression of it etc.
I was veeeerrryyyy tempted to get an M2CS, but I felt like I would miss my M4 too much. I would love to whip one around a track though.

Work has settled down significantly in the last 3 weeks or so. We still have the odd protest here and there courtesy of BLM/Antifa, but nothing like it has been the last 8 months or so. Thanks for asking brotha. How are you?
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      12-10-2020, 02:17 PM   #1335
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I was veeeerrryyyy tempted to get an M2CS, but I felt like I would miss my M4 too much. I would love to whip one around a track though.

Work has settled down significantly in the last 3 weeks or so. We still have the odd protest here and there courtesy of BLM/Antifa, but nothing like it has been the last 8 months or so. Thanks for asking brotha. How are you?
Good to hear! I was very tempted to wait/try a M2 CS myself, but I've had so many BMWs and I wanted to scratch the Porsche itch one day, so I did. I feel very fortunate especially in these times to be able to experience these cars.

I/my family are thankfully doing good. A little bored as it is eat, work, hang out at home with the fam, sleep and repeat. But, I know a lot have it pretty bad nowadays so no complaints here.
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      12-10-2020, 02:44 PM   #1336
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I was veeeerrryyyy tempted to get an M2CS, but I felt like I would miss my M4 too much. I would love to whip one around a track though.

Work has settled down significantly in the last 3 weeks or so. We still have the odd protest here and there courtesy of BLM/Antifa, but nothing like it has been the last 8 months or so. Thanks for asking brotha. How are you?
Good to hear! I was very tempted to wait/try a M2 CS myself, but I've had so many BMWs and I wanted to scratch the Porsche itch one day, so I did. I feel very fortunate especially in these times to be able to experience these cars.

I/my family are thankfully doing good. A little bored as it is eat, work, hang out at home with the fam, sleep and repeat. But, I know a lot have it pretty bad nowadays so no complaints here.
I saw your P-Car. I like it!!!!! Congrats on making the jump. One day I will have a damn 6MT GT3.

I am glad you and the family are doing well. These are rough times for a lot of people.
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      12-10-2020, 02:44 PM   #1337
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      12-10-2020, 03:06 PM   #1338
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My good friend is high up at Cadillac and I asked him about that car and he was silent. I just asked him again what the deal is will see if has anything to spill.

He did say if I ever wanted anything GM he could get me an insane deal but nothing in that lineup has every tickled my fancy.

EDIT: He just texted me "They are going to be epic"
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      12-10-2020, 03:27 PM   #1339
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My good friend is high up at Cadillac and I asked him about that car and he was silent. I just asked him again what the deal is will see if has anything to spill.

He did say if I ever wanted anything GM he could get me an insane deal but nothing in that lineup has every tickled my fancy.

EDIT: He just texted me "They are going to be epic"
Tell your buddy Cadillac marketing should do a "Drop" of the thing laying waste to the beavertooth nightmare.

Hard to believe competitors won't destroy them and their wannabe cool factor with competitive advertising. Talk about being ripe for the picking.
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      12-10-2020, 05:48 PM   #1340
///M4ster Yoda
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Limited availability??
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      12-10-2020, 05:50 PM   #1341
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Hell Yeah! Looking forward to the reveal.
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      12-10-2020, 06:11 PM   #1342
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Limited availability??
That caught my eyes as well, maybe an order only type situation? But then again it says "standard." Maybe they are referring to the number of Blackwings they will produce?
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