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      04-17-2014, 09:21 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2thdr View Post
So, I am wondering after seeing so many Porsche's running around in the city with CCB's as to how many people are considering the ceramic option on the F80/F82 for daily drivers with no track use. I don't think I need the CCB in that situation and am not even sure as to how well they would perform if I decided to run the vehicle in the winter months as well, but I honestly don't know enough about them aside from anecdotal generalizations about using CCBs in the winter.

Can someone please provide their opinions/experiences?
When I was shopping for my old GT3 I was looking specifically for one without the PCCB option as I didn't want to spend that much on replacing the brakes when that time came. Conversely one could replace them with iron. Inevitably the next potential owner would look at this as a negative when looking at the cars options. For these reasons I really didn't see any upside to having them. They are delicate as well and wouldn't want the tire monkeys anywhere around them come tire replacement.
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      04-17-2014, 09:25 AM   #90
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It doesn't seem like enough people are considering the significant rotational and unsprung weight savings. The car will simply be quicker and handle better with CCB.
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      04-17-2014, 09:50 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
It doesn't seem like enough people are considering the significant rotational and unsprung weight savings. The car will simply be quicker and handle better with CCB.
I would not qualify 3.6lb/6.9lb of unsprung/rotational mass reduction per corner significant.

As was discussed at length, CCB will likely provide a slight performance advantage but at considerable cost increase, especially at the track.
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      04-17-2014, 02:37 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
It doesn't seem like enough people are considering the significant rotational and unsprung weight savings. The car will simply be quicker and handle better with CCB.
I would not qualify 3.6lb/6.9lb of unsprung/rotational mass reduction per corner significant.

As was discussed at length, CCB will likely provide a slight performance advantage but at considerable cost increase, especially at the track.
I guess "significant" is a subjective measure... But I stand by my "significant" adjective. Simply put, the CCB will definitely make a car accelerate faster and make it's handling more responsive.
Others might choose to spend $3k on backup cameras and nanny sensors, or $5k on Individual paint, maybe $3500 on exhaust... But for my money I'd choose the CCB! Besides... What are perpetually dust-free rims worth anyway?!?
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      04-17-2014, 04:44 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I guess "significant" is a subjective measure... But I stand by my "significant" adjective. Simply put, the CCB will definitely make a car accelerate faster and make it's handling more responsive.
Others might choose to spend $3k on backup cameras and nanny sensors, or $5k on Individual paint, maybe $3500 on exhaust... But for my money I'd choose the CCB! Besides... What are perpetually dust-free rims worth anyway?!?
Just to put things in perspective, in terms of equivalent weight, the CCB will provide about the same (if not less) advantage as the CFRP roof over the moonroof. Or the M4 over the M3. Is it an advantage? Yes. Significant? Probably not.

I am not disputing your choice of going with the CCB. Every individual has preferences for one option or the other. Heck, I am getting the LEDs just because I like the look . To each their own . I just wanted to put "significant" in perspective .
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      04-17-2014, 06:16 PM   #94
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But the weight the CCB option saves is unspung weight. A few pounds savings here is a pretty big deal on the suspension system's ability to perform optimally. Plus this weight decrease is at the ends of the vehicle which decreases the polar moment of inertia. An increased polar moment of inertia causes the car to resist turning.

You can speculate all you want that the weight savings is relatively insignificant but until somebody tests the car with and without the CCB option, you don't know crap about the difference.
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      04-18-2014, 08:44 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BhamDavid
But the weight the CCB option saves is unspung weight. A few pounds savings here is a pretty big deal on the suspension system's ability to perform optimally. Plus this weight decrease is at the ends of the vehicle which decreases the polar moment of inertia. An increased polar moment of inertia causes the car to resist turning.

You can speculate all you want that the weight savings is relatively insignificant but until somebody tests the car with and without the CCB option, you don't know crap about the difference.
Yup.
Ask any cyclist about the importance of saving rotational weight... It's huge.
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      04-18-2014, 10:23 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Yup.
Ask any cyclist about the importance of saving rotational weight... It's huge.
It is important not confuse rotational and unsprung weight.

Again, it is all a question of perspective. On a bicycle, the proportion of the wheel weight relative to the total bicycle is much greater than on a car. Further, the wheel diameter is pretty important on a bicycle and the weight is mostly distributed at the far edge of that diameter.

Doing quick math on the F8X, the equivalent mass ratio of the brake disc is about 1.20. This means that every lb of disc weight is equivalent to 1.2lb of non-rotating mass on the car. A reduction of 27.5lb on the discs equates to 33lb equivalent mass. Add back the 13lb from the heavier callipers (27.5-14.5) and you end up with a 20lb equivalent mass reduction on the total car (0.6%). Again, not significant.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-18-2014 at 05:46 PM..
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      04-18-2014, 10:33 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BhamDavid View Post
You can speculate all you want that the weight savings is relatively insignificant but until somebody tests the car with and without the CCB option, you don't know crap about the difference.
With a good understanding of physics and vehicle dynamics combined with the un-official info provided by BMW personnel in various interviews, one can make reasonable assessment on the impact of the CCB weight reduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BhamDavid View Post
But the weight the CCB option saves is unspung weight. A few pounds savings here is a pretty big deal on the suspension system's ability to perform optimally. Plus this weight decrease is at the ends of the vehicle which decreases the polar moment of inertia. An increased polar moment of inertia causes the car to resist turning.
I agree that the reduction of unsprung weight from the CCB is beneficial, it is IMO the greatest benefit of CCB in terms of dynamic performance. It is about 3.6lb per corner, not huge, but there nonetheless. However, since I track my car, the CCB would force me to go to a bigger and heavier 19" track wheel setup that would most likely entirely offset the unsprung weight benefit of the CCB.

As far as the overall polar moment inertia of the car, I seriously doubt that 3.6lb per corner can be felt.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-18-2014 at 10:40 AM..
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      04-18-2014, 10:43 AM   #98
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I agree that if we are comparing a conventional braking system with 18s vs CCB with 19s the weight difference is probably negligible or close to negligible. Considering how many will be equipping 19" rims the CCB equipped car will simply accelerate quicker. How much quicker... Better braking... Not having to clean your wheels more than the rest of the car... Worth $8k? That's an individual decision.
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      04-18-2014, 10:50 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Considering how many will be equipping 19" rims the CCB equipped car will simply accelerate quicker. How much quicker... Better braking...
Again, don't confuse unsprung and rotational mass. The effect on acceleration and braking of the rotational mass reduction provided by CCB is negligible, even with the same 19" wheels. As I posted above, the CCB will likely equate to 20lb on the whole car. That's nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Worth $8k? That's an individual decision.
Fully agree on that point

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-18-2014 at 05:43 PM..
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      04-18-2014, 05:58 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
...the CCB equipped car will simply accelerate quicker.
The effect on acceleration and braking of the rotational mass reduction provided by CCB is negligible...
:headsmack:

I give up... Perception is more powerful than reality. If you believe the lighter rotating and unsprung weight will have no effect on performance it must be so.
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      04-18-2014, 06:13 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
:headsmack:

I give up... Perception is more powerful than reality. If you believe the lighter rotating and unsprung weight will have no effect on performance it must be so.
Have you read my posts? I never said no effect.

You are right, perception seems more powerful than reality

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-18-2014 at 09:56 PM..
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      04-20-2014, 01:34 PM   #102
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Today, I took my 330d for a spin on the ring, I have the blue 4 piston M-sport brakes and if these are the same brakes as on the new M3/4, start saving for the CCB brakes ... After 3-4km the fading was just rediculous, talk about wasted money ...and pedal travel almost to the metal... Even the E92M3 managed a lap with no major fading...
On an other note, saw an i8 in the wild there and it looks stunning!!
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      04-20-2014, 09:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by tomwac View Post
Today, I took my 330d for a spin on the ring, I have the blue 4 piston M-sport brakes and if these are the same brakes as on the new M3/4, start saving for the CCB brakes ... After 3-4km the fading was just rediculous, talk about wasted money ...and pedal travel almost to the metal... Even the E92M3 managed a lap with no major fading...
On an other note, saw an i8 in the wild there and it looks stunning!!
They are not the same brakes at all. Only the callipers seem to be the same.

Further, street pads are not intended for track use, regardless of the brake system.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-21-2014 at 06:08 AM..
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      04-27-2014, 01:32 PM   #104
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ok - some points from me:


- Before I considered the M, I was thinking about a "sporty" 435i. I asked my dealer (who is M certified and running own racecars on the nearby ring) if the "sportbreaks" (1000$ in germany) are any good. He answered: "well - basically it is blue calipers for 1000$".

- about the CCBs. I have never driven something like that. But my lady had a 520d. 18" standard rft wheels in summer. 17" non-rft in winter. The 20d is not strong engine and I could always easily feel the difference of the weight and weightdistribution between the 2 setups. of course we are not talking about "wow" effects, but we are talking a felt difference, if you are an enthusiastic driver.

- QUESTION: I am really considering the CCBs. no break dust is a heavy(!) argument for me. but is there really no break dust? or is it only "30% less"?


- about weight and energie. you are always only talking about wheight equivalent. AFAIK accelerating rotating mass needs 4 times more energie than non rotating mass. mayby someone can do the math again.
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      04-27-2014, 05:01 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neverbeentoofast View Post
- about weight and energie. you are always only talking about wheight equivalent. AFAIK accelerating rotating mass needs 4 times more energie than non rotating mass. mayby someone can do the math again.
Not sure where you got the 4X number

Doing the math for the size and shape of a 410mm brake disc rotating at the same speed as a 275/35R19 wheel, I come up with a equivalent mass factor of approximately 1.2. Not 4.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-27-2014 at 06:03 PM..
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      04-27-2014, 08:44 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neverbeentoofast View Post
- QUESTION: I am really considering the CCBs. no break dust is a heavy(!) argument for me. but is there really no break dust? or is it only "30% less"?
I was in a brake seminar given by a Brembo engineer not long ago and he asked the group where brake dust comes from, nearly the entire room guessed from the pads. He said it's 75% from the rotors and 25% from the pads, in general and with steel rotors. What is mostly on your wheel is actually iron from your rotors, I wouldn't have believed it if it had come from someone else.

CCB pads are likely not an aggressive compound, so hopefully even less dust but still with stopping power.

The PCCBs on my Porsche produce very little dust compared to when I swapped the rotors to steel. The one issue about glossy black wheels is they show brake dust instantly, unlike silver which hides it for a few days.
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      04-27-2014, 09:56 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by consolidated View Post
I was in a brake seminar given by a Brembo engineer not long ago and he asked the group where brake dust comes from, nearly the entire room guessed from the pads. He said it's 75% from the rotors and 25% from the pads, in general and with steel rotors. What is mostly on your wheel is actually iron from your rotors, I wouldn't have believed it if it had come from someone else.

CCB pads are likely not an aggressive compound, so hopefully even less dust but still with stopping power.

The PCCBs on my Porsche produce very little dust compared to when I swapped the rotors to steel. The one issue about glossy black wheels is they show brake dust instantly, unlike silver which hides it for a few days.
You know what, I don't believe it.

Why? Because iron rusts, and it rusts fast. If the dust were from the rotors, that iron dust would quickly turn rusty. Yet it stays black. Further, the sacrifial component in the brake system is the pad. The pads do wear much faster than the rotors. Where does that pad material go?

I once kept my Hawk blue racing pads on for a few days for street driving. Big mistake. The pads were so abrasive when cold that they actually machined down the discs in just a few days. Guess what, my wheels were covered in rusty dust .
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      04-27-2014, 10:22 PM   #108
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It doesn't make sense to me either. The Brembo rep wasn't a salesperson, this guy knew his field, I was in disbelief but he had no reason to bend the truth and made quite a point of it.
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      05-19-2014, 07:37 PM   #109
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wish I could've sprung for these
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      06-07-2014, 01:38 PM   #110
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I'm getting CCB basically because I would drive my F80 for long, long time and Ive wanted BBK since long time and it's worth the money for the quality and durability and performance it has. I would def be regret in the future if I didn't get the CCB, simply from its bad a** looking compare to standard brakes. It might cost more but you get what you pay for is def true in this category. This CCB is very special, it is from M, it is only available in F8x, it stands out the extreme performance of F8x. So since you can afford this high performance car why not making it as what it suppose to be?
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