Burned through a full set of pads at COTA

AustinTrkJunkie · 09-04-2019, 08:57 PM

So I've been running Pagid RS29's (think they just rebranded them RSL29 last year) on the track since getting the F80 and have averaged about 3 events on a set before needing replacement.

Well put on my 3rd brand new set before the event at COTA with Chin last weekend and when taking them off was shocked to see that the rears were basically toast/at mins and the fronts were at about 25% left.

Only did 9 sessions total all weekend - granted 2 were 40 min sessions, love that Chin morning format - so was bummed to see that I'll need to drop $$$ on another set of track pads for the next event.

Anyone ever seen this kind of pad wear? It was hot, but didn't go out past 2pm so ambients were mid 90's not 100 like it was post 2pm.

Almost think they put the wrong pad/compound-type in the box given how far gone these were when I took them off.

9 sessions vs. ~3 events/25ish sessions is a HUGE delta in wear!

OhioRiderAaron · 09-05-2019, 08:36 AM

Both front and rear were brand new prior to the event? Running with MDM? What group did you run with them?

Again, the Pagid's frankly suck if you're pushing the car quite hard. It's best to run them at a slower pace compared to other pads. Also, the F8X steel brake setup is lame, adding cooling ducts is recommended and will extend the pad/rotor life. Last and most importantly, run Ferodo/Carbotech/Hawk moving forward...

F80Speed77 · 09-05-2019, 08:57 AM

Wow that's essentially 11 sessions... That is a shit ton of track time over the course of a weekend.

I'd bet that back stretch braking zone is especially hard on them woahing it down from 150+mph? Think about how many times you did that over the course of the weekend haha.

NYG · 09-05-2019, 10:42 AM

That's insane.

I've been running my PFC11s for 5 track days now (6 x 20 min sessions) pushing them to pre-abs all day long and I've got probably 10 more days on them at this rate.

AustinTrkJunkie · 09-05-2019, 04:36 PM

Yah, I'm honestly baffled. Never seen anything like this. Beginning to wonder if Turner - or Pagid - put the wrong compound pads in the box. As mentioned, this was my 3rd set of the same pad on this car and always got at least 3 events out of them. One event for $550 in pads is ridiculous

And to the couple of questions, I'm an instructor with Chin and run DSC fully off, no MDM mode at all...it's way too intrusive. And yes, they were brand new, only drove from the house to the track with them before this event.

Strange days indeed!

Continental02 · 09-05-2019, 04:49 PM

COTA is really hard on the brakes of our car, so it sounds about right for the Pagids. You will get better life with some other manufacturers, but honestly, you're clearly finding the limitations of the stock brake system. I'm actually surprised you still have some front pad left after 11 sessions at COTA. The strange thing is that your rears are gone. I also run with DSC off and my rears last forever. You were happy with the brakes all weekend? Going through that amount of pad I would assume you were miserable with the lack of confidence in the brakes at certain points of the track.

You have a couple options here.

1. Accept the F8x eats the brakes and absorb the cost for pads on a frequent basis.
2. Run some sort of brake cooling and hope it helps.
3. Get an AP 9668 kit, and still go through pads, although not as fast, while having more confidence in the brakes.

CanAutM3 · 09-05-2019, 04:49 PM

I’ve noticed that the RSL29 are quite less stout than the previous RS29. I wear them down much faster than before, I even had 3 pads where the pad material sheared right off the baking plate. Quite scary when that happens as the pedal goes straight to the floor. I will be switching to PF08 next season.

AustinTrkJunkie · 09-05-2019, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Continental02

COTA is really hard on the brakes of our car, so it sounds about right for the Pagids. You will get better life with some other manufacturers, but honestly, you're clearly finding the limitations of the stock brake system. I'm actually surprised you still have some front pad left after 11 sessions at COTA. The strange thing is that your rears are gone. I also run with DSC off and my rears last forever. You were happy with the brakes all weekend? Going through that amount of pad I would assume you were miserable with the lack of confidence in the brakes at certain points of the track.

You have a couple options here.

1. Accept the F8x eats the brakes and absorb the cost for pads on a frequent basis.
2. Run some sort of brake cooling and hope it helps.
3. Get an AP 9668 kit, and still go through pads, although not as fast, while having more confidence in the brakes.

Had just flushed with SRF and the pedal was okay to start, but by Sunday was getting very close to the floor when standing on it. Thought it was just fade or air in the lines, but it must have been the pads going away as once I switched back to street pads, the pedal was back and firm as ever.

My experience has been that with all the trailbraking through the slower sections of COTA, the rears tend to be ever so slightly more worn than the fronts, but never seen it like this to where it was down to the backing plate essentially.

I'm going to try a different brand, as CanAut mentions in the post above, I also think the compound has changed going from RS29 to RSL29...

AustinTrkJunkie · 09-05-2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I’ve noticed that the RSL29 are quite less stout than the previous RS29. I wear them down much faster than before, I even had 3 pads where the pad material sheared right off the baking plate. Quite scary when that happens as the pedal goes straight to the floor. I will be switching to PF08 next season.

I had some nice chunking on what was left of one of the fronts, agree it's time to look for another brand

OhioRiderAaron · 09-06-2019, 07:30 AM

How many events are on the car/brake system? Do you caliper pistons move freely? Maybe they're due for a rebuild? I wore down one of my fronts abnormally fast and it ended up being a stuck piston.

AustinTrkJunkie · 09-06-2019, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

How many events are on the car/brake system? Do you caliper pistons move freely? Maybe they're due for a rebuild? I wore down one of my fronts abnormally fast and it ended up being a stuck piston.

If it were one pad, I'd think that, but the caliper pistons move fine and it was pads on all 4 corners that were worn down. Really think it's this new compound, going to try something else moving forward.

avantix · 09-06-2019, 09:06 PM

I switched from Pagids to Endless based on a buddy's recommendation (he was running them on his previous E92) and noticed a touch better longevity however the braking in my opinion is substantially better. Much better initial bite and zero fade lap after lap. They are a bit more expensive however. I managed to get 4 track days out of mine with approx another half day left in them.

JC cs · 09-06-2019, 10:36 PM

Similar experience at Schnellfest in June. Lack of initial and sustained bite disconcerting with RSL 29. Had to start braking earlier and earlier for T11. Good advice about alternatives. I used Girodisc pads (use their rotors) at MSR Houston but noise is quite an issue for the street if left on, friction is great.

AustinTrkJunkie · 09-07-2019, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avantix

I switched from Pagids to Endless based on a buddy's recommendation (he was running them on his previous E92) and noticed a touch better longevity however the braking in my opinion is substantially better. Much better initial bite and zero fade lap after lap. They are a bit more expensive however. I managed to get 4 track days out of mine with approx another half day left in them.

Good stuff, thanks for the insight. I'm going to write Pagid and see what they say...expectations..none

Hope they over achieve

F3IGHTY · 09-09-2019, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

Had just flushed with SRF and the pedal was okay to start, but by Sunday was getting very close to the floor when standing on it. Thought it was just fade or air in the lines, but it must have been the pads going away as once I switched back to street pads, the pedal was back and firm as ever.

My experience has been that with all the trailbraking through the slower sections of COTA, the rears tend to be ever so slightly more worn than the fronts, but never seen it like this to where it was down to the backing plate essentially.

I'm going to try a different brand, as CanAut mentions in the post above, I also think the compound has changed going from RS29 to RSL29...

IMO you’re simply exceeding the overall brake package’s heat capacity. You can either run a higher MOT pad like others are saying, and I bet the fluid fade will become more evident as it now becomes the weak link.

If you want to fix this issue you have to improve heat transfer from the rotor to ambient air. You can do this with ducting, or via rotors with more thermal mass and higher surface area within the vane structure - typically with a proper BBK.

AustinTrkJunkie · 09-11-2019, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F3IGHTY

IMO you’re simply exceeding the overall brake package’s heat capacity. You can either run a higher MOT pad like others are saying, and I bet the fluid fade will become more evident as it now becomes the weak link.

If you want to fix this issue you have to improve heat transfer from the rotor to ambient air. You can do this with ducting, or via rotors with more thermal mass and higher surface area within the vane structure - typically with a proper BBK.

Think you're missing the point here. I/We ran the old version of he RS29/RSL29 and could get 3 events, so it's not like there's a change in how we treat the pads on track.

That said, now I/we went through an entire set in one weekend, which is total BS.

It's def not like I've gotten faster, as I told Jade when he rode and coached me, if anything have gotten WAY slower only doing 3-4 events a year.

MasterP · 10-03-2019, 09:34 PM

It's combo of COTA and the weight of the car. I ran 22mm thick XR1's on my ST BBK with Ti shims and brake cooling ducts on DH Slicks.

I was below half thickness by the end of the second day (approx 9 25 min sessions). I can go 3X as long in my E92 which uses similar brakes.

09-04-2019, 08:57 PM	#1
AustinTrkJunkie Lieutenant 336 Rep 591 Posts Drives: '22 M340i Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Round Rock, TX iTrader: (6)	Burned through a full set of pads at COTA So I've been running Pagid RS29's (think they just rebranded them RSL29 last year) on the track since getting the F80 and have averaged about 3 events on a set before needing replacement. Well put on my 3rd brand new set before the event at COTA with Chin last weekend and when taking them off was shocked to see that the rears were basically toast/at mins and the fronts were at about 25% left. Only did 9 sessions total all weekend - granted 2 were 40 min sessions, love that Chin morning format - so was bummed to see that I'll need to drop $$$ on another set of track pads for the next event. Anyone ever seen this kind of pad wear? It was hot, but didn't go out past 2pm so ambients were mid 90's not 100 like it was post 2pm. Almost think they put the wrong pad/compound-type in the box given how far gone these were when I took them off. 9 sessions vs. ~3 events/25ish sessions is a HUGE delta in wear!
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09-05-2019, 08:36 AM	#2
OhioRiderAaron Captain 368 Rep 697 Posts Drives: 2016 BMW M3 ZCP Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Columbus, OH iTrader: (0)	Both front and rear were brand new prior to the event? Running with MDM? What group did you run with them? Again, the Pagid's frankly suck if you're pushing the car quite hard. It's best to run them at a slower pace compared to other pads. Also, the F8X steel brake setup is lame, adding cooling ducts is recommended and will extend the pad/rotor life. Last and most importantly, run Ferodo/Carbotech/Hawk moving forward... __________________ ZCP - Daily Driven Trackster ~ Gone but not Forgotten 1LE - Track Rubber & Garage Dust Collector
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09-05-2019, 08:57 AM	#3
F80Speed77 Grid.Life 325 Rep 383 Posts Drives: BMW M3 Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Pittsburgh iTrader: (0)	Wow that's essentially 11 sessions... That is a shit ton of track time over the course of a weekend. I'd bet that back stretch braking zone is especially hard on them woahing it down from 150+mph? Think about how many times you did that over the course of the weekend haha.
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09-05-2019, 10:42 AM	#4
NYG Brigadier General 10580 Rep 3,643 Posts Drives: Corvette Z06 Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Brooklyn, NY iTrader: (0)	That's insane. I've been running my PFC11s for 5 track days now (6 x 20 min sessions) pushing them to pre-abs all day long and I've got probably 10 more days on them at this rate.
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09-05-2019, 04:36 PM	#5
AustinTrkJunkie Lieutenant 336 Rep 591 Posts Drives: '22 M340i Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Round Rock, TX iTrader: (6)	Yah, I'm honestly baffled. Never seen anything like this. Beginning to wonder if Turner - or Pagid - put the wrong compound pads in the box. As mentioned, this was my 3rd set of the same pad on this car and always got at least 3 events out of them. One event for $550 in pads is ridiculous And to the couple of questions, I'm an instructor with Chin and run DSC fully off, no MDM mode at all...it's way too intrusive. And yes, they were brand new, only drove from the house to the track with them before this event. Strange days indeed!
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09-05-2019, 04:49 PM	#6
Continental02 Enthusiast 248 Rep 304 Posts Drives: M3 CS Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Las Vegas iTrader: (1)	COTA is really hard on the brakes of our car, so it sounds about right for the Pagids. You will get better life with some other manufacturers, but honestly, you're clearly finding the limitations of the stock brake system. I'm actually surprised you still have some front pad left after 11 sessions at COTA. The strange thing is that your rears are gone. I also run with DSC off and my rears last forever. You were happy with the brakes all weekend? Going through that amount of pad I would assume you were miserable with the lack of confidence in the brakes at certain points of the track. You have a couple options here. 1. Accept the F8x eats the brakes and absorb the cost for pads on a frequent basis. 2. Run some sort of brake cooling and hope it helps. 3. Get an AP 9668 kit, and still go through pads, although not as fast, while having more confidence in the brakes.
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09-05-2019, 04:49 PM	#7
CanAutM3 General 21115 Rep 20,741 Posts Drives: 2021 911 turbo Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Montreal iTrader: (1) Garage List 2022 Audi RS6 [10.00] 2021 Porsche 911 turbo [10.00]	I’ve noticed that the RSL29 are quite less stout than the previous RS29. I wear them down much faster than before, I even had 3 pads where the pad material sheared right off the baking plate. Quite scary when that happens as the pedal goes straight to the floor. I will be switching to PF08 next season. __________________ Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black
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09-06-2019, 07:30 AM	#10
OhioRiderAaron Captain 368 Rep 697 Posts Drives: 2016 BMW M3 ZCP Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Columbus, OH iTrader: (0)	How many events are on the car/brake system? Do you caliper pistons move freely? Maybe they're due for a rebuild? I wore down one of my fronts abnormally fast and it ended up being a stuck piston. __________________ ZCP - Daily Driven Trackster ~ Gone but not Forgotten 1LE - Track Rubber & Garage Dust Collector
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09-06-2019, 09:06 PM	#12
avantix Captain 344 Rep 941 Posts Drives: 2019 M4CS Lime Rock Grey Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Montreal iTrader: (6)	I switched from Pagids to Endless based on a buddy's recommendation (he was running them on his previous E92) and noticed a touch better longevity however the braking in my opinion is substantially better. Much better initial bite and zero fade lap after lap. They are a bit more expensive however. I managed to get 4 track days out of mine with approx another half day left in them. __________________ 2019 M4CS Lime Rock Grey, MP HAS, GC camber plates, MPE
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09-06-2019, 10:36 PM	#13
JC cs New Member 9 Rep 29 Posts Drives: 2018 M3 CS Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Houston iTrader: (0)	Similar experience at Schnellfest in June. Lack of initial and sustained bite disconcerting with RSL 29. Had to start braking earlier and earlier for T11. Good advice about alternatives. I used Girodisc pads (use their rotors) at MSR Houston but noise is quite an issue for the street if left on, friction is great.
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10-03-2019, 09:34 PM	#17
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	It's combo of COTA and the weight of the car. I ran 22mm thick XR1's on my ST BBK with Ti shims and brake cooling ducts on DH Slicks. I was below half thickness by the end of the second day (approx 9 25 min sessions). I can go 3X as long in my E92 which uses similar brakes.
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