M3/M4 vs W205 C63 AMG

[ss134]

Originally Posted by Croatian test driver

It surprises me that the new C Class is seen so negative here, as the car gets great compliments for its design (exterior and interior). When I talk to other people (friends, coworkers etc.), it seems like they're all positively surprised and they find it's a very good looking car in person (especially with AMG package).

I agree. I find the current C63 very pleasing on the eye. The new C class has shed weight and I expect the C63 to follow suit, if they bring a DCT to the party this could be quite a car.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by ss134

I agree. I find the current C63 very pleasing on the eye. The new C class has shed weight and I expect the C63 to follow suit, if they bring a DCT to the party this could be quite a car.

You are absolutely right... if they brought a DCT and lost some weight, the C63 would be a very tough car to compete with.

I actually prefer the current design to the one coming... something about the new front end design I just don't like.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by gthal

You are absolutely right... if they brought a DCT and lost some weight, the C63 would be a very tough car to compete with.

I actually prefer the current design to the one coming... something about the new front end design I just don't like.

Funny, I dislike the rear end of the new W205. AMG might make it look better...

The 'holdback' for me on The C63 though is the lack of stick. I want my manual tranny, damnit!


ps - for those who missed it, the mods went 36 rounds late last week on whether this IS the new C63 motor or just the GT motor. Serious time. In the end, I think it was 'it will be something like this but not necessarily this one' as far as conclusions go.

It is in one of the other threads - either vs or engine sub forum - where this one will be migrated, if I were a betting man.....

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by WhyGeeGee

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11406137...-ps-twin-turbo

It's going to be the same engine found in the new MB GT.

Thoughts?

As you'll see from the discussion above your post this is the M178 while the C63, from all prior indication, is getting the M177. The two engines are from the same family, obviously, and will share the same displacement and probably most of the long block as well. But details will differ. Specifically, output is almost sure to differ. We already knew the C63 was getting the M177 4.0L V8 sharing block design with the M133 I4 and outputting about 450-500hp (though probably no less than 470hp). We still don't know the final specs of the C63.

Originally Posted by Just_me

Base version is getting 476hp while S version comes with 510 hp. It's not certain if the S version is available in US.

I don't see that as completely infeasible at all. But you seem pretty confident there. Can you let us in on why?

For my money, I don't typically bet that two differently designated engines (M177/M178) will overlap in power. But it does happen (RS4/5 and R8 V8 for example).

[Just_me]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I don't see that as completely infeasible at all. But you seem pretty confident there. Can you let us in on why?

I don't swear it because there can be last minutes changes so to speak but yes I'm confident. I also know of people who seen the production version.
Here is a good site for Benz people with the latest info about MB, although in german.

63 AMG mit 476 PS – S-Modell mit 510 PS – C 400 4MATIC mit 333 PS
Den C 180 BlueEFFICIENCY mit 156 PS (6-Gang Schaltgetriebe) feiert seine Markteinführung im September 2014, der C 250 mit 7G TRONIC PLUS (211 PS) startet dann im Juni 2014. Die bereits zur Weltpremiere in Detroit gezeigte Variante C 400 4MATIC mit 333 PS (245kW, 7G-TRONIC PLUS Getriebe) steht hingegen erst im Dezember 2014 zur Markteinführung an.

4MATIC für den C 63 AMG als S-Modell mit 510 PS ab Werk
Ebenso im Dezember 2014 startet der C 63 AMG mit 476 PS beim Händler, aber auch als C63 AMG S-Modell - diese verfügt jedoch über 510 PS (375kW) (AMG-Varianten erhalten im Oktober 2014 die Bestellfreigabe). Auf den Einsatz von 4MATIC wird hier – auch beim S-Modell – scheinbar verzichtet, – und wird erst später angeboten.

http://blog.mercedes-benz-passion.co...tstart-122014/

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Stevens21234

^Ofcourse we'll get BMW homers on this forum..=).

Isn't the M3 weight comparable to the existing C63 model?

The E90 M3 is a bit lighter than the W204 C63. My '13 LCI C63 sedan weighed in at around 3,820 lbs (no driver, 1/2 tank of fuel).

Originally Posted by gthal

I love the C63 and this car will be a beast. Its Achilles Heal will be its transmission. For street cruising it is great but for harder use it leaves a lot to be desired relative to the DCT in the M cars. It was the one thing I didn't like about my C63... that and the C63 overheated like a bitch on the track and was heavy. Otherwise, the C63 is, and will be, a stellar car!

The one area the C63 will own the M is sound... they sound AMAZING!

Definitely agree regarding the sound factor. Also, for me, the C63's steering feel is absolutely fantastic (heavy, precise, communicative), thanks to the hydraulic setup.

I also agree regarding the MCT. When it comes to cruising in the various automatic modes, it's a very proficient transmission. Compared to the M-DCT though, it's a bit slower on upshifts/downshifts in M Mode (although 100 milliseconds is nothing to sneeze at).

It seems like the cooling issues are hit or miss, especially regarding the LCI cars. I know the '13 models received some cooling tweaks.

This is where my vital fluid temperatures are at after an hour or so of flogging the car in fairly oppressive heat/humidity:



For those unfamiliar with the C63's ideal fluid operating temperatures, these temps are just about perfect (the oil temperature needs to reach 176 degrees F before thrashing the motor/car).

The car is running hot once the oil reaches 260+ degrees F.

[tomwac]

What's with the coffee mug sign??

[Lups]

Originally Posted by tomwac

What's with the coffee mug sign??

It's the car saying it knows it now has my seal of approval.

[AreOut]

C63 for sound, F80 for everything else

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by tomwac

What's with the coffee mug sign??

It's the Mercedes-Benz Attention Assist.

If the car detects unusual driving behavior, the symbol illuminates (and little wavy lines appear out of the top of the mug), chimes, and alerts the driver to pull over to rest or have something to "wake up."

Originally Posted by Lups

It's the car saying it knows it now has my seal of approval.

That too.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by AreOut

C63 for sound, F80 for everything else

Are we talking as compared to the W204 or the W205?

If W205, way too early to even have this discussion.

If W204, I take it you've never driven a C63 (in particular, the LCI/facelift variant)? The F80 w/ 6MT just clocked a 12.3-second 1/4 mile run. The W204 C63 hits 12.2 seconds routinely in magazine tests; high 11s stock in the hands of competent owners with drag strip experience. Maybe a DCT-equipped F80 can match that but considering the W204 is 7-8 years old now, that's not really too surprising.

Regarding steering feel, the W204's is better than the E90's (in my opinion). It's an old-school hydraulic setup with consistent weighting and feedback, irrespective of driving mode. I can't comment on the F80's steering yet because I haven't driven the car (I'm guessing you haven't either). If you don't believe me and don't have seat time of your own to base your opinion on, read the Chris Harris driving notes on the C63 and listen to him gush about the car's turn-in. If you don't believe him, go ahead and read all the other reviews of the LCI C63. The car's steering feel is praised universally.

The M-DCT is one of the best transmissions out there so point to the F80 there. Furthermore, the F80 is the newer car so in the technology department (HUD, etc.), I'll also give the nod to the F80.

Seats? I'd take the C63's any day of the week. The F80 looks like it has improved drastically in the seat(s) department.

The LCI C63 lapped the 'ring 4 seconds quicker than the E9X M3. I expect the W205 C63 to be faster than the F80 there as well (admittedly, this is nothing more than mere speculation based upon past results at this point). The W205 C63 could potentially have 480 horsepower (4.0L biturbo V8) standard (with a more powerful "S" model available later). The base/standard W205 weighs 220+ lbs less than the W204. With more power and less weight, the W205 C63 is going to out-perform the W204 in every way (except in the sound department, thanks to smaller displacement and a few turbos).

[ybbiz34]

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11406187...to-be-revealed

"The wait is about to end as we are just a few months away from the C63 AMG's unveiling allegedly set for September 24 when Mercedes-Benz will publish the first photos. Shortly after that, the model will be introduced at the Paris Motor Show in early October when the company will open up the order books."

"The all-new C63 AMG lineup will be powered by a 4.0-liter V8 twin-turbo engine taken from the upcoming AMG GT. Codenamed M178, the motor meets Euro 6 emissions standards and will develop 510 PS (375 kW) and 650 Nm (479 lb-ft) in the AMG GT but Mercedes-Benz will probably offer a detuned version in the C63 AMGs with around 480 PS (353 kW) in the standard variant and a little bit more in the aforementioned S-Model."

More than a few reports now have indicated that the W205 will have the M178, rather than the M177.

[AreOut]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Are we talking as compared to the W204 or the W205?

If W205, way too early to even have this discussion.

If W204, I take it you've never driven a C63 (in particular, the LCI/facelift variant)? The F80 w/ 6MT just clocked a 12.3-second 1/4 mile run. The W204 C63 hits 12.2 seconds routinely in magazine tests; high 11s stock in the hands of competent owners with drag strip experience. Maybe a DCT-equipped F80 can match that but considering the W204 is 7-8 years old now, that's not really too surprising.

Regarding steering feel, the W204's is better than the E90's (in my opinion). It's an old-school hydraulic setup with consistent weighting and feedback, irrespective of driving mode. I can't comment on the F80's steering yet because I haven't driven the car (I'm guessing you haven't either). If you don't believe me and don't have seat time of your own to base your opinion on, read the Chris Harris driving notes on the C63 and listen to him gush about the car's turn-in. If you don't believe him, go ahead and read all the other reviews of the LCI C63. The car's steering feel is praised universally.

The M-DCT is one of the best transmissions out there so point to the F80 there. Furthermore, the F80 is the newer car so in the technology department (HUD, etc.), I'll also give the nod to the F80.

Seats? I'd take the C63's any day of the week. The F80 looks like it has improved drastically in the seat(s) department.

The LCI C63 lapped the 'ring 4 seconds quicker than the E9X M3. I expect the W205 C63 to be faster than the F80 there as well (admittedly, this is nothing more than mere speculation based upon past results at this point). The W205 C63 could potentially have 480 horsepower (4.0L biturbo V8) standard (with a more powerful "S" model available later). The base/standard W205 weighs 220+ lbs less than the W204. With more power and less weight, the W205 C63 is going to out-perform the W204 in every way (except in the sound department, thanks to smaller displacement and a few turbos).

umm, E92 didn't have weight/power advantage but F80 will have if we rate S55 at ~465 measured, no?!

and yeah I was talking against W204

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by AreOut

umm, E92 didn't have weight/power advantage but F80 will have if we rate S55 at ~465 measured, no?!

and yeah I was talking against W204

Remember that the most current version of the W204 is the 507 Edition - with 507 horsepower and a 0-60 time of 3.7 seconds. It is heavier than the F80, for sure (W204 weighs 3,820 lbs, approximately) but it has a lot of power.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

More than a few reports now have indicated that the W205 will have the M178, rather than the M177.

Indeed. Almost as many as we saw confirming that the F80 was to be powered by a V6.

Where were all these claims before the M178 details broke? They didn't exist in nearly the same numbers, right? Could it be because the people making them didn't have a basis to leap to conclusions and form those opinions?

Suppose the AMG GT transmission were revealed to be a DCT too. We'd see a sharp increase in claims that the W205 C63 will as well, don't you think? Or, suppose the name of the AMG GT were instead announced officially as the SLC55. You know what comes next, right? Lots of confirmation that the C63 will now be called the C55.

On the other hand, it could be that all those reports are correct. I am still betting not, however.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Indeed. Almost as many as we saw confirming that the F80 was to be powered by a V6.

Where were all these claims before the M178 details broke? They didn't exist in nearly the same numbers, right? Could it be because the people making them didn't have a basis to leap to conclusions and form those opinions?

Suppose the AMG GT transmission were revealed to be a DCT too. We'd see a sharp increase in claims that the W205 C63 will as well, don't you think? Or, suppose the name of the AMG GT were instead announced officially as the SLC55. You know what comes next, right? Lots of confirmation that the C63 will now be called the C55.

On the other hand, it could be that all those reports are correct. I am still betting not, however.

Yeah it's merely a waiting game now (at least there are only a few months left). I can only say with certainty that the W205 will be powered by a 4.0L biturbo V8. My guess is that the base car will put out 476-480 horsepower with the S model producing in the neighborhood of 510 hp.

I can also say with certainty that the W205 will retain the C63 moniker because AMG has determined that the "63" name has quite a bit of brand value now. That's straight from the Private Lounge.

The staff at the PL have neither confirmed nor denied our questions regarding the M178's availability in the W205.

[mkoesel]

Yep.

Hey ybbiz, since you have access, let us know when you have more info from those guys on the inside about specific timeframe for US availability and US MSRP.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yep.

Hey ybbiz, since you have access, let us know when you have more info from those guys on the inside about specific timeframe for US availability and US MSRP.

Will do with pleasure my friend!

[M3guy3]

I didnt read this thread. few questions is the next C63 getting a DCT? when will the coupe be here?

[Lups]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

I didnt read this thread. few questions is the next C63 getting a DCT? when will the coupe be here?

From experience this will be posted by someone so I'll just beat them to it:

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by Lups

From experience this will be posted by someone so I'll just beat them to it:

i doubt there was talk when the coupe will be released though.

[Just_me]

I had a testdrive two months ago with the new C-class.
With the right specs its a very good looking car, interior quality is superior to F30. Mine had AMG package, HUD, adaptive chassi and much more.
The drive is softer than F30 and steering not as good as F30. But feel good factor is high. What I've heard the new AMG is more tame looking than last C63, no wide fenders anymore.