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      09-26-2013, 01:44 PM   #23
atopa2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I completely agree esp. the bold part. However, I think you feel this is more or less a win, whereas it's pretty disappointing for me. Only time and drives by journalists will really tell us about the throttle response.

In my most recent simulations the (approximate) shift points were less than redline in all gears except 1-2. In particular they were (that sim still is using a 7750 redline):

1-2: 7750 (redline)
2-3: 7100
3-4: 6600
4-5: 6500
5-6: 6300
6-7: 6200

This is simply the nature of the beast with a radically falling torque curve and flat power curve. The force at the wheels curves by gear vs. vehicle speed simply overlap and that is the ideal shift point for maximum performance. I guess we've pretty much known this since the revelation that the car would be turbo charged but it's really sinking in now. In short, other than in 1st gear, forget about the redline and forget about the corresponding thrills of a high redline. Redline will only be utilized for absolute drag racing starting in 1st gear.

Here is an interesting related question. Will the shift points for the DCT be programmed for maximum performance which means essentially short shifting? Ugh...
Swamp,care to comment? By looking at the DYNO chart, even if the torque falls before redline its still making enough more than and about the same Hp as the s65.I think it wouldn't be all that disappointing to take it the red line in the lower gears just like s65.
I think one of the DMT drives commented that it behaved like a NA engine
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      09-26-2013, 01:49 PM   #24
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Tachometer red line lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
We've now had confirmation of the s55 engine's sightly above 7500 RPM redline via the official released specs, but seeing as how the tachometer and redline were ever elusive all these months and years of spy photos, we're happy to finally share with you images of the M3/M4's redline.

Though the actual redline starts at the 7500 mark, expect the rev limiter to kick in a bit after that.

I was thinking that maybe the use of a lighted display for the Tach indicates that redline is adjusted depending on the current mapping of M settings selected by Driver? Would say sport plus allow an additional 200+ revs before shifts at the expense of MPH over a soft setting. I'm not a techie but still fascinated by the tech in this car.
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      09-26-2013, 01:49 PM   #25
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Do you guys see that there's an auto start/stop function! I hope that's disabled from start.

Because that'll be bad if it shuts off on traffic lights and stop signs
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      09-26-2013, 01:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM3S View Post
lol whats with some of you always bumping up the numbers??

This site has been spot on thus far in predictions and news yet the same people with no insider sources saying 425?? Hmmm more likely 450HP.... 390lb torque?? Hmmm more likely 410lb.... 7500 redline? Hmmm more likely 7800.
I said 7600rpm because BMW said slightly ABOVE 7500rpm and the red marking seems to begin at 7500. On my N53 engined F10 the red markings begin at 7000rpm, but redline is 7200rpm.

And BMW has said that torque is well above 500Nm/396lb.ft, so that's why it's safe to assume a higher torque than that... And as HP and torque is related some have also extrapolated what sort of HP goes with that torque

That's why different numbers are being thrown around here
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      09-26-2013, 02:03 PM   #27
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very good for a boosted motor period.
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      09-26-2013, 02:06 PM   #28
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While I'm sure this is going to be a great car to drive, I am a bit disappointed by the 7500RPM limit.

I also don't get why people are saying it's "good for a FI engine" when there is no good reason a FI engine can't be high RPM too... like a R34 GTR having an 8000rpm redline from the factory, 15-20 years ago!!

Still want one though!
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      09-26-2013, 02:08 PM   #29
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Well the torque is available at low rpms so it's not like you need a red line that high. Plus the max hp is typically lower on these motors. But it's a typical straight 6. I wouldn't expect it to rev higher than the N52/54/55
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      09-26-2013, 02:09 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 325rider View Post
Anyone think the e46/e9x gauges were way sweeter and more proprietary looking?
I do. I'm not a fan of the larger gauge cluster or the displays integrated into it.
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      09-26-2013, 02:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Here is an interesting related question. Will the shift points for the DCT be programmed for maximum performance which means essentially short shifting? Ugh...
Why do you feel that the S55 won't be able to breathe at high speeds? There is no technical reason why an FI motor cannot hold power output right up to redline. The N54 behaves as it does because of design decisions that were made to appeal to a specific target market. The M cars have always focused on the higher end of the RPM spectrum. There is no reason why this motor HAS to be any different.
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      09-26-2013, 02:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
very good for a boosted motor period.
Yes and no. Lets just say it is no MP4-12C twin turbo that revs to 8,500.
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      09-26-2013, 02:13 PM   #33
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Eddien123: Agree you don't need it but it makes the experience more special... Would you prefer a Ferrari 458 with a 7500rpm limit in exchange for some extra torque? I know it's not exactly the same as it's N/A but since this is an M product, the focus should be on the driving experience and I'd gladly sacrifice a bit of grunt lower down in exchange for a wilder top-end!
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      09-26-2013, 02:15 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
Why do you feel that the S55 won't be able to breathe at high speeds? There is no technical reason why an FI motor cannot hold power output right up to redline. The N54 behaves as it does because of design decisions that were made to appeal to a specific target market. The M cars have always focused on the higher end of the RPM spectrum. There is no reason why this motor HAS to be any different.
Bascially the entire first part of his post that you didn't quote told what he thinks.

Swap always makes very valid points and backs them up with some very detailed data most of the time.
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      09-26-2013, 02:18 PM   #35
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In all the videos of the DTM drivers driving the M4, none of them took it to redline. Either they were told not to or they know the power dies off prior to 7,500. Oddly most of the time they shifted prior to 7,000.
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      09-26-2013, 02:18 PM   #36
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Lots of M3 owners are going to be bumping the limiter a lot more now.
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      09-26-2013, 02:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I completely agree esp. the bold part. However, I think you feel this is more or less a win, whereas it's pretty disappointing for me. Only time and drives by journalists will really tell us about the throttle response.

In my most recent simulations the (approximate) shift points were less than redline in all gears except 1-2. In particular they were (that sim still is using a 7750 redline):

1-2: 7750 (redline)
2-3: 7100
3-4: 6600
4-5: 6500
5-6: 6300
6-7: 6200

This is simply the nature of the beast with a radically falling torque curve and flat power curve. The force at the wheels curves by gear vs. vehicle speed simply overlap and that is the ideal shift point for maximum performance. I guess we've pretty much known this since the revelation that the car would be turbo charged but it's really sinking in now. In short, other than in 1st gear, forget about the redline and forget about the corresponding thrills of a high redline. Redline will only be utilized for absolute drag racing starting in 1st gear.

Here is an interesting related question. Will the shift points for the DCT be programmed for maximum performance which means essentially short shifting? Ugh...
If power output is constant to redline, there is no benefit to upshifting before the engine can't go any higher. You will have no more power available once you upshift.

This is true in ALL gears.
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      09-26-2013, 02:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneV78
@Eddien123: Agree you don't need it but it makes the experience more special... Would you prefer a Ferrari 458 with a 7500rpm limit in exchange for some extra torque? I know it's not exactly the same as it's N/A but since this is an M product, the focus should be on the driving experience and I'd gladly sacrifice a bit of grunt lower down in exchange for a wilder top-end!
These cars are no longer designed for enthusiast like yourself. They are for the masses with money that want a fast car and the badge to go with it. Doesn't mean it isn't a good car though.
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      09-26-2013, 02:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Bascially the entire first part of his post that you didn't quote told what he thinks.

Swap always makes very valid points and backs them up with some very detailed data most of the time.
Yeah, I saw that part and responded to it in another post. I don't believe his conclusion follows from the data. Power is conserved through a cars drivetrain, it is not multiplied by leverage. There is no reason that shift points would differ by gear, if the power curve is flat through the powerband. Downshifting early would just drop the engine speed to a point where the engine can breath better (surely) but does not make a much power. You'll end up with the same wheel speed but less tractive effort. That's just a different way of saying that you will have less power available to accelerate the car.

Bring this engine to redline, everytime.
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      09-26-2013, 02:21 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaneV78 View Post
While I'm sure this is going to be a great car to drive, I am a bit disappointed by the 7500RPM limit.

I also don't get why people are saying it's "good for a FI engine" when there is no good reason a FI engine can't be high RPM too... like a R34 GTR having an 8000rpm redline from the factory, 15-20 years ago!!

Still want one though!
Because most whining ninnies want boost from idle, not a proper turbo car.
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      09-26-2013, 02:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Because most whining ninnies want boost from idle, not a proper turbo car.
This is something I don't understand.

Previous NA M cars had good throttle response all over the rev range but, were guttless at low speed. The standard retort from enthusiasts was that M cars were meant to be driven at high engine speeds. Detractors would always bemoan this characteristic, claiming it's boring.

So, two days ago (almost), BMW releases official specifications for the S55, showing it favors high speed performance. This is in keeping with past S motors but now people want boost from -2000 rpms?

Can people make up their mind?

A 3L turbo with an ~7.5k rpm redline, 3.5k rpm power band and high speed performance is almost exactly in keeping with the engine characteristics that BMW has been engineering into their S motors for the last ~30 years. I don't understand the complaints, aside from maybe the reduced throttle response at mid-range engine speeds.
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      09-26-2013, 02:37 PM   #42
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Seems the new M engines are tuned more towards midrange power. While fun on the street when driving 6/10ths and you dont want to stretch out each gear, at the track where you are flat out all the time, I would prefer a powerband shifted more towards the right.

7500-7700rpm is spot on with the predictions. But lets see, on most cars aftermarket software will increase the rev limiter, so hopefully we could se close to 8k rpm with an aftermarket tune?

Maybe not worth it for stock turbos since the powerband seems to be very strong in the midrange and drops at high rpms, but I imagine with a nice aftermarket turbo kit which develops power all the way up to redline. 8k would be great.
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      09-26-2013, 02:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
This is something I don't understand.

Previous NA M cars had good throttle response all over the rev range but, were guttless at low speed. The standard retort from enthusiasts was that M cars were meant to be driven at high engine speeds. Detractors would always bemoan this characteristic, claiming it's boring.

So, two days ago (almost), BMW releases official specifications for the S55, showing it favors high speed performance. This is in keeping with past S motors but now people want boost from -2000 rpms?

Can people make up their mind?

A 3L turbo with an ~7.5k rpm redline, 3.5k rpm power band and high speed performance is almost exactly in keeping with the engine characteristics that BMW has been engineering into their S motors for the last ~30 years. I don't understand the complaints, aside from maybe the reduced throttle response at mid-range engine speeds.
Yeah it's pretty hilarious really. People are touting the old M3's engine for it's "hard pull to redline". The new motor produces the maximum hp the m3 slowly built up to over 8400 rpm FOR over 1000 RPM. The build up is quicker, and it produces a substantially higher amount of torque throughout the rev range. Yet we're complaining?

If you had two career paths, both on a 10 year contract, both starting with $100k in pay. One gave you a 21% raise the first five years, but none after that (pay after 5 years being $259k) while the other gave you a 10% raise every year (pay after 10 years being $259k). Are you going to take the first job or are you going to complain that you wouldn't get a raise every year and take the second?!

Last edited by ScarecrowBoat; 09-26-2013 at 02:47 PM..
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      09-26-2013, 02:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebaflex View Post
....very strong in the midrange and drops at high rpms...
The crux.

The power output seems to just start to taper right as the car hits redline; enough to measure the decrease but not enough to feel the difference. Looking at the torque curve, it seems that the engine will have no room to breathe at higher speeds. Increasing the rev limit won't be useful, with those turbos, I wouldnt think.
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