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      09-26-2013, 02:47 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat View Post
Yeah it's pretty hilarious really. People are touting the old M3's engine for it's "hard pull to redline". The new motor produces the maximum hp the m3 built up to for 2000 rpm FOR several hundred RPM. The build up is quicker, and it produces a substantially higher amount of torque throughout the rev range. Yet we're complaining?

If I offered you two careers where the first 6 years you get a 10% bump in pay eventually ending with 200k your final year or another where you get a 20% bump the first 3 years and 200k your last 3 years which are you going to choose? I have a feeling a lot of these people would be complaining they didn't get a raise their last 3 years even though they end up with way more money.
This engine is going to feel and drive differently than anything that has come before. I think some of the complaining owners are afraid of change, more than anything.
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      09-26-2013, 02:48 PM   #46
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It probably sounds like an N55 on steroids and the driver better be fast to shift a manual gearbox right.
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      09-26-2013, 02:50 PM   #47
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kinda sad to see that they couldn't beat a HPF e46 m3.


now thats a great idea right? we should buy up all the e46 m3 molds and make HPF e46 m3s and sell them new. that would be a cool car.






now THAT is a flat turbo tq curve....


i really hope tuners can unlock this engine and just hold boost to redline.

Last edited by burrito007; 09-26-2013 at 02:57 PM..
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      09-26-2013, 02:56 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Diver View Post
It probably sounds like an N55 on steroids and the driver better be fast to shift a manual gearbox right.
I'd guarantee this car has long gearing. And, short shifting wont be necessary or advantageous.

The power curves show a powerband that is about 3krpms wide. I don't think you'll have to shift that fast.
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      09-26-2013, 02:56 PM   #49
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Like a typical F1 engine?

F1 engines are building power all the way to the (restricted) rev limit of 18,000 rpm. Their torque and power curves are anything but flat.
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      09-26-2013, 03:05 PM   #50
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I feel like this car will be a major step up in chassis and handling compared to the E92, but I'm just not at all excited about this engine.

I had a 335is before an M3 and I had a lot of fun in it but to me the S65 is more fun. One thing for sure is that extracting power and fun out of the M4 will be incredibly easy. Almost too accessible for the typical M3/4 driver. I'd much rather see the M4 with an M3 GTS motor in it. That I could get into. The styling is great on the M4 but a bit busy. I already like it but I'm just afraid I'm outgrowing the looks of this car as a whole.
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      09-26-2013, 03:07 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
kinda sad to see that they couldn't beat a HPF e46 m3.


now thats a great idea right? we should buy up all the e46 m3 molds and make HPF e46 m3s and sell them new. that would be a cool car.






now THAT is a flat turbo tq curve....


i really hope tuners can unlock this engine and just hold boost to redline.
Oh man, now I really wish I had gotten an e46. That curve is beautiful.
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      09-26-2013, 03:11 PM   #52
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Nice pics...
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      09-26-2013, 03:15 PM   #53
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My guess is that the S55 dynochart will look very much like that of the N63 in terms of actual TQ,HP,RPM and shape of the curves. While that is a very impressive feat indeed taken the difference in displacement I can't say I find the N63 very exciting in it's power delivery. The key to the specialness or not of this engine will IMO be how responsive it is. My guess is that it will be very,very good for an FI but not really close to a good NA engine. Same story as the steering, probably very,very good for an EPS but not as good as a good HPS. The engine however will be more of a give an take where the extra midrange could make up for some of the top end pull and less sharp throttle response.

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2013 at 03:23 PM..
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      09-26-2013, 03:27 PM   #54
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I really don't know why some guys here make the redline limit a huge deal. IMHO, 7500rpm on the F80 m3 is not bad at all. It's not that BMW made the redline on the F80 M3 only at 6000rpm.

The 1968 Honda S800 has a 9,500rpm redline. Yes, you read that right. 9,500rpm redline! The acoustics may be there, fun to drive, but if your into auto-x or racing, it is not faster than a 1989 mazda miata.

I guess it's about the engine note sound for some guys here. I'm more of a performance guy, so it does not matter if the F80 M3 has a lower redline than the e90/e92/e93 m3. 7500rpm vs 8300rpm.

1968 Honda S600 specs:
http://thisoldhonda.org/generations_detail.php?ID=26

1989 Miata specs:
http://www.motortrend.com/classic/ro...a/viewall.html

Here's a link for '64 Honda S600 that has a 9500rpm redline:
http://nzhondas.com/goo-tube/113015-...ne-1964-a.html

Here's a link for a '68 S800 that has a 10,000rpm redline!
http://www.reddit.com/r/carporn/comm...line_1217x810/

Jay Leno's high revving '64 Honda S600:
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      09-26-2013, 03:32 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Thanks!

With that picture combined with the Dyno chart I think it's safe to say that this engine will act like a typical FI engine in terms of power delivery across the rev band.

With a 7500 rpm redline it looks from the dyno chart that plots the S65 on it as well that the power plateau should be around 5500 rpm. I.e when power stops building and maintain hp until redline. The quick run to peak hp and the square tq curve will make for a very fat midrange but the car will not be very exciting to rev past 5500 - 6000 rpm. The ferocious pull to redline from the S65 will not be there.

I.e much more S63TU than S65 as expected. No surprise here.
Remains to see if throttle response ( I inlcude all type of lag from throttle to engine response in "throttle lag" ) will set this engine apart from a typical FI engine.
Not sure if I missed it but will the m3/4 have over boost?
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      09-26-2013, 03:36 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd1981 View Post
Not sure if I missed it but will the m3/4 have over boost?
I might have missed it too but I don't think that info has been confirmed or dismissed yet.
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      09-26-2013, 03:43 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
kinda sad to see that they couldn't beat a HPF e46 m3.


now thats a great idea right? we should buy up all the e46 m3 molds and make HPF e46 m3s and sell them new. that would be a cool car.






now THAT is a flat turbo tq curve....


i really hope tuners can unlock this engine and just hold boost to redline.
Yes but take into consideration that the e46 m3 was a 3.2L and more importantly it has a higher compression ration which would lead to higher hp/tq numbers. The s55 will have lower compression naturally due to FI out of the box. This will be for longevity and reliability.
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      09-26-2013, 03:48 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
mkoesel? tie? still not a definitive answer
Tie? "Over 7500 RPM" leaves little chance for a tie, no?

But as I said before, we can wait for the exact number or until it is 100% certain.
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      09-26-2013, 03:57 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROM3 View Post
Do you guys see that there's an auto start/stop function! I hope that's disabled from start.

Because that'll be bad if it shuts off on traffic lights and stop signs

BMW M models come with Last User Mode enabled, which will start the car with stop/start in the same mode as when the car was shut down
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      09-26-2013, 04:04 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd1981 View Post
Yes but take into consideration that the e46 m3 was a 3.2L and more importantly it has a higher compression ration which would lead to higher hp/tq numbers. The s55 will have lower compression naturally due to FI out of the box. This will be for longevity and reliability.
direct injection allows for higher compression ratios - its not THAT much lower. s54 was 11.5 to 1 n55 is 10.2 to 1. its not 8 to 1 or 9 to 1 like you would see in turbo subarus.



also - s54 longevity was never an issue. people beat the CRAP out of it (the turbo ones) and rarely had a problem.



all im saying is BMW made the S54 in 1999/2000. and HPF hacked together a turbo in mid 2000s. BMW couldn't pull off a better engine?

don't get me wrong the S54 is going to be cool. but it just leaves you wondering what they could have done if they werent trying to make a good car/engine and weren't just looking for ways to cut costs and ///Marketing

by ///Marketing i mean that they couldn't have the M3 out-perform the M5.
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      09-26-2013, 04:06 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick3753 View Post
These cars are no longer designed for enthusiast like yourself. They are for the masses with money that want a fast car and the badge to go with it. Doesn't mean it isn't a good car though.
The 2500+ enthusiasts who bought and love their 1M's vehemently disagree with you.



I, personally, find the 1M to be more fun than the E9x M3 in all situations. In day to day street driving, there is no comparison.

I suspect that the M division managed to dial-in some of the 1M fun factor into the upcoming halo cars.

After all, as Oz and others have pointed out, the 1M was the Proof Of Concept for the new Turbo-M cars (yes, I know the X cars had blown engines but let's recognize them for the prudent business decisions they were)
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      09-26-2013, 04:07 PM   #62
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"I really don't know why some guys here make the redline limit a huge deal."

High redline and induction noise are in the same category to me. While not neccessarily making a car faster they add to the drama and excitement which is a large part of what makes driving feel sporty and fun. For some of us driving an equally fast electric or diesel car is not the same and this carries over to the difference between a turbo and NA car to some but lesser extent. A high rpm car is often more predictable and controllable as well since power comes on more gradually and doesn't just explode, sure you can modulate with the throttle but turbolag traditionally makes this a bit tricky. That said I'm cautiously optimistic about the S55 as with the F80 as a whole.

M has proven over and over again that they are not mainly about numbers but the overall result and balance of all parts. Sure there has been hickups with the latest cars so there is a case to be cautious as well.
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      09-26-2013, 04:11 PM   #63
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Has anyone compared this engine to the M5/M6 engines? They are turbo 8's, correct?
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      09-26-2013, 04:12 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver View Post
It probably sounds like an N55 on steroids and the driver better be fast to shift a manual gearbox right.
Nah it will have so much torque you won't need to worry about too many gear changes, esp on the open road.

Unless you're talking about traffic light drags.
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      09-26-2013, 04:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
mkoesel? tie? still not a definitive answer
Tie? "Over 7500 RPM" leaves little chance for a tie, no?

But as I said before, we can wait for the exact number or until it is 100% certain.
To be 100% fair, so far your 8k assumption is far off... If the usable power of this car is nowhere near 7500, then perhaps you still get the battle, but the war's mine .
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      09-26-2013, 04:28 PM   #66
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
My thoughts exactly. This engine is going to deliver and feel exactly like +500 rpm and +20% more peak power 1M (N54T).
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I completely agree esp. the bold part. However, I think you feel this is more or less a win, whereas it's pretty disappointing for me. Only time and drives by journalists will really tell us about the throttle response.

.
Am I missing something here? The 1M was 335bhp and the F8x is 430bhp. That's a near 30% difference (28.5) not the quoted 20%. If we're assuming all 1Ms make more than advertised, shouldn't the same be done for the F8x given BMW's history with TTs?
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