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      02-06-2015, 11:05 AM   #23
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awesome document! thanks!
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      02-06-2015, 11:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
How does the JB4 on the F80 scale / bias fuel? I am going to guess it can't because the fuel tables are written and once you encroach the threshold of the fuel trims, it goes lean.
You guessed wrong The lambda target has a fuel trims competent and when the S55 trims go positive it actually targets richer instead of leaner. The more positive the trims the richer it goes. It actually misfires when AFRs get to around 11:1. So by locating the fuel trims positive or negative you can effectively set the AFR target. Of course, this can only be done with CANbus data where the JB4 reads the current AFR and fuel trims.

The JB4 also has a second mechanism for setting fuel targets in the form of an o2 sensor signal bias. Although this isn't used yet on the S55 as it hasn't been needed. It's there ready to go if/when it is though.


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      02-06-2015, 11:24 AM   #25
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It looks to me this worksheet is going off the rails a bit. I'd suggest removing any vendor provided marketing information and focusing on the technical aspects of the various units. And to really do that you need someone with a technical mind to edit and verify the worksheet. Certain elements of the sheet don't make technical sense as is.

Just a couple notes off the top of my head:

1) If you're going to post dyno information then that would need to be measured using standardized 3rd party dynojet results. Like, dynos done at EAS whch is a 3rd party dynojet.

2) Throttle control isn't a technical connection or plug. The JB4 can do unique things with the throttle other non-CANbus tunes can't but that is beyond the scope of my post. It should be removed from the sheet I think.

3) The JB4 & Stage1 both offer "valet mode" (e.g. being able to disable the tune by changing to map 0).

4) ESS does not have logging software nor would there be much to log without CANbus.

5) Adding certain features makes sense. For example: Ability to read/delete hidden tuner detection codes. Ability to reduce torque in 1st and 2nd gear to assist with traction. Ability to change maps from the drivers seat. Ability to update firmware at home. Just to list a
few off the top of my head.

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      02-06-2015, 02:15 PM   #26
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Great work.
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      02-10-2015, 02:55 AM   #27
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The ESS will is able to support a bigger turbo like the Pure upgrade for the N55 according this short Q&A. Maybe that is something to add to the list too..?

http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showt...light=e-tronic
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      02-10-2015, 03:42 AM   #28
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Can we please add a "Boost (PSI)" Row to this spreadsheet?

I think that's one of the most important comparison factors here, as the higher claimed products could simply be running the turbos harder.
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      02-10-2015, 11:23 PM   #29
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Updated, added, deleted, organized.

Not sure how to add boost PSI as the boost varies through RPM considerably, and also with various maps.
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      02-11-2015, 01:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Updated, added, deleted, organized.

Not sure how to add boost PSI as the boost varies through RPM considerably, and also with various maps.
Great work
I recommend not adding Booost psi on each tune, since you can just adjust it on most of these tunes and get more power.
Also by adding claimed power you are guarantying that this topic will get derailed and turn into a tuner war.
I recommend just sticking with technical details and how each tune is different than the other.

Also, i see that you have all the tune not street legal except Dinan.
Not sure how correct that statement is. All the tunes on that list will pass emission no problem.
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      02-11-2015, 08:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Updated, added, deleted, organized.

Not sure how to add boost PSI as the boost varies through RPM considerably, and also with various maps.
Maybe just add it as a max figure for each tune listed. Be nice to know how hard the turbos are being pushed past factory.
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      02-11-2015, 09:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Great work
I recommend not adding Booost psi on each tune, since you can just adjust it on most of these tunes and get more power.
Then, add in multiple columns for different maps if you really want to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I recommend just sticking with technical details and how each tune is different than the other.
Which is exactly why boost levels and AFR are so important when comparing these options.
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Last edited by Merli; 02-11-2015 at 09:46 PM..
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      02-11-2015, 09:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Not sure how to add boost PSI as the boost varies through RPM considerably, and also with various maps.
Peak boost will do.

I may very well be gravely mistaken, but I doubt many of these piggy backs alter the boost ramp rate (partial wastegate actuation), and just alter peak boost targets, and let the ECU figure out how to get there fastest as per factory tuning.

I've only read of one piggyback that has altered the boost curve to lower boost at lower RPM.
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Last edited by Merli; 02-11-2015 at 09:47 PM..
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      02-11-2015, 09:37 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merli View Post
Then, add in multiple columns for different maps if you really want to?



Which is exactly why boost levels and AFR are so important when comparing these options.
I guess thats fine just make sure to add if boost is adjustable.
Example JB4 boost can be adjusted to whatever target you wish.
Not just by using the already available maps, but you can also create your own map.
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      02-11-2015, 09:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merli View Post
Peak boost will do.

I may very well be gravely mistaken, but I doubt many of these piggy backs alter the boost ramp rate, and just alter peak boost targets, and let the ECU figure out how to get there fastest as per factory tuning.

I've only read of one piggyback that has altered the boost curve to lower boost at lower RPM.
Thats incorrect.
Some of tunes in that list control boost per 500 rpm
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      02-11-2015, 09:44 PM   #36
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Does anyone know where the main ECU is that the Dinan directly plugs into? What has to be removed if you get a Dinan installed?
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      02-11-2015, 09:47 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Also, i see that you have all the tune not street legal except Dinan.
Not sure how correct that statement is. All the tunes on that list will pass emission no problem.
Interesting point. Is Dinan the only CARB approved tune?
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      02-11-2015, 09:53 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
I guess thats fine just make sure to add if boost is adjustable.
Example JB4 boost can be adjusted to whatever target you wish.
Not just by using the already available maps, but you can also create your own map.
Fair points, but I assume that anyone looking to tune their own custom maps on their own dyno will not be using this table for comparison of units.

To me, boost and AFR are absolutely key pieces of information.

One company claims +50whp, and another claims +65 whp? HOW? By running an extra 1psi? Oh okay then...
But +15hp while running the SAME boost? Well then I want to see the AFR and ignition timing maps. Are those extra 15hp "safe hp", or are they toeing the line a little too closely for my liking?
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      02-11-2015, 09:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Thats incorrect.
Some of tunes in that list control boost per 500 rpm
Very cool... Thanks for the clarification!
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      02-11-2015, 10:05 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merli View Post
To me, boost and AFR are absolutely key pieces of information.
Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I think that only 3 of these make an attempt at correcting the AFR as opposed to letting the native ECU adjust it for the added boost:

1) JB4 through CANbus
2) ESS through MAF
3) Dinan through any way they want since they can potentially access every ECU input.

Last edited by pigwet; 02-12-2015 at 12:02 AM..
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      02-11-2015, 10:12 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I think that only 3 of these make an attempt at correcting the AFR as opposed to letting the native ECU adjust for the added boost:

1) JB4 through CANbus
2) ESS through MAF
3) Dinan through any way they want since they can potentially access every ECU input.
To alter AFR you need a fuel mass connector. JB4 & Dinan are the only tunes currently offering it. Dinan actually only has 14 wires going to its control box. About the same as the JB4. So its likely connecting to exactly the same sensors the JB4 is only at the ECU connector instead of at each individual sensor as the JB4 does.

The JB4 is able to tune from stock up to 36psi, the limit of the TMAP sensor. So talk of peak HP, peak boost, etc, is sort of irrelevant.

Mike
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      02-11-2015, 10:59 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
The JB4 is able to tune from stock up to 36psi, the limit of the TMAP sensor. So talk of peak HP, peak boost, etc, is sort of irrelevant.
Considering that 95% of potential consumers of plug-in piggyback modules will NEVER deviate from standard maps, i respectfully disagree.

From the information readily available on this site, it is evident that the JB4 is the most capable and scalable of piggybacks currently available. That's great.

It's also evident that you're a retailer/site sponsor, who's flagship product on your website is indeed the JB4.

If your point is that the JB4 can run custom maps, and can support up to 36psi boost, and because of that we shouldn't compile peak boost data as a comparison point, I'm afraid that your JB4-biased presence in this thread is limiting it's effectiveness, in delivering relevant comparable data to the consumers.
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      02-11-2015, 11:49 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
To alter AFR you need a fuel mass connector.
Can you perhaps discuss why ESS would be using MAF without also using fuel mass? AFR is a ratio. If you want to alter it, you can alter the numerator, the denominator, or both. No?

Last edited by pigwet; 02-12-2015 at 12:04 AM..
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      02-12-2015, 06:51 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merli View Post
Considering that 95% of potential consumers of plug-in piggyback modules will NEVER deviate from standard maps, i respectfully disagree.

From the information readily available on this site, it is evident that the JB4 is the most capable and scalable of piggybacks currently available. That's great.

It's also evident that you're a retailer/site sponsor, who's flagship product on your website is indeed the JB4.

If your point is that the JB4 can run custom maps, and can support up to 36psi boost, and because of that we shouldn't compile peak boost data as a comparison point, I'm afraid that your JB4-biased presence in this thread is limiting it's effectiveness, in delivering relevant comparable data to the consumers.
I don't think you understood my point. The JB4, due to EWG control, fuel control, and CANbus, has the control in place to run any plausible boost profile. Other tuning systems, although more limited in what they control, are also widely adjustable. Discussion of peak boost and peak HP isn't a necessarily a function of the tuning system but more a function of which settings & maps are being run on each.

To use a more specific example, one could run the JB4 on map 3, which will produce less peak boost and HP than the BMS Stage1 tuner does. On the other hand, the JB4 with its extra control is capable of safely tuning up to the TMAP sensor limit while the Stage1 with its MAP sensor only inputs should only be run up to +4psi over stock. Although, one could crank it up to 8psi over stock for a dyno run, and maybe produce a big number, with increased risk. This talk of peak boost and peak HP only becomes relevant when discussing flash maps or tunes that are not adjustable, IMHO.

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