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      02-12-2015, 09:17 AM   #45
Fly4Tarpon
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That makes complete sense to me. I actually think Mike is doing an exceptional job of "restraining himself" considering he not only sells the jb4 but is one of its stronger advocates.
I'm glad to see this post has remained relatively civil, as I would have bet money when I first saw it posted that it would turn into a tuner and friends of tuners OK corral. Very informative, lets keep it going guys!
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      02-12-2015, 11:04 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Can you perhaps discuss why ESS would be using MAF without also using fuel mass? AFR is a ratio. If you want to alter it, you can alter the numerator, the denominator, or both. No?
Already mentioned in this thread. MAF has nothing to do with the AFR or fueling, it's a cross reference for load/boost.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=14

The problem with threads like this is without experienced people participating you tend to get consumed by baloney. For example I read somewhere a particular tune is "64 bit" and this same company claimed the JB4 was "8 bit". The implication that it was more smooth and powerful because the processor is "more powerful". Of course when you dig in to the details you find both tunes run the analog inputs and outputs at 10bit and the JB4 is only using about half of its processing power even offering much more than any other tune does. And the tune they claim is higher powered, can't even run CANbus, EWG, fuel control, data logging, exhaust valve, etc, etc. So marketing claims like that are one of those devil is in the details things that someone technical is needed for to analyze. And this person really should be unbiased (if even possible) / third party.

The chart is a great idea and helpful even in its current form but it still requires research on the part of end user to filter out certain aspects and compare different aspects.

Mike
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      02-13-2015, 05:15 PM   #47
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Some information I got from Roman@ESS via PM.

Quote:
Mass air flow sensor integration is always ideal when attempting to control the ECU. It has a higher cost to add to a piggyback controller but in our opinion is a must have. More control is always a good thing when you are not recalibrating the actual ECU software.

You can run a piggyback without MAF integration on the F series when boost is increased and your AFR's overall will be fine because it runs a target based system. One of the advantage of a controller that can manipulate the MAF signal is that you can have the system add fuel during on / off throttle transition. This makes it not required but a better option for ideal performance in our opinion as the motor has access to additional fuel when needed during this time.

The second advantage of a system that can integrate with the MAF is controlling max MAF values. Without MAF integration you can exceed max MAF values when boost is raised and that can cause drivability issues, limp mode, stalling etc.. The main advantage of having MAF integration in the F series is really having the controller not allow the system to exceed max MAF values. Exceeding max allowed MAF values can also be stored and detected which is not good.
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      02-13-2015, 05:28 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Some information I got from Roman@ESS via PM.
I'm not sure if it was posted to invite discussion but I have a slightly different opinion. If you guys want I am happy to share my divergent opinion.

Let me know

Mike
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      02-13-2015, 06:12 PM   #49
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Discussion is good!

There are obviously many ways to make a piggyback. I'm trying to learn what is the best product for me - through the information here and through a few textbooks I have begun reading.

In the end, customers have different wants. I don't care about having the most power. I simply want a product that is well engineered and performs the job the "right" way. I am very weary of limp-home modes. Expecting full power and not having it could lead to a very dangerous situation.
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      02-13-2015, 06:29 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Discussion is good!

There are obviously many ways to make a piggyback. I'm trying to learn what is the best product for me - through the information here and through a few textbooks I have begun reading.

In the end, customers have different wants. I don't care about having the most power. I simply want a product that is well engineered and performs the job the "right" way. I am very weary of limp-home modes. Expecting full power and not having it could lead to a very dangerous situation.
Parts of the statement you quoted are factually inaccurate. The DME uses twin wideband o2 sensors for AFR targeting. The MAF readings are only used at idle/under vacuum where the resolution on the 2.5bar MAP sensor leaves a bit to be desired for idle quality. So altering the MAF readings can have no impact on any tuning or operation while under boost when the tuners are active.

It's true that exceeding MAF limits can trigger hidden plausibility codes though. Which is why altering them physically or via the CANbus is required for higher boost tunes to avoid these hidden codes.

Mike
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      02-13-2015, 06:36 PM   #51
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Active-8 box sir Smooth as silk. More smooth than stock trim. I am at the dyno tomorrow and had the JB4 previous. Reading into your expectations I feel the Active box is the right solution. As a bonus, although not your primary concern, the power levels are amazing!


Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
Discussion is good!

There are obviously many ways to make a piggyback. I'm trying to learn what is the best product for me - through the information here and through a few textbooks I have begun reading.

In the end, customers have different wants. I don't care about having the most power. I simply want a product that is well engineered and performs the job the "right" way. I am very weary of limp-home modes. Expecting full power and not having it could lead to a very dangerous situation.
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      02-26-2015, 11:18 AM   #52
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Updates posted.

All this worry about drivetrain errors and limp modes...a few days ago I got a limp mode coasting down the street with my completely stock car that I baby. Pulled over, car idled roughly, turned car off, turned car on, CEL/drivetrain error went away and hasn't shown up since. Perhaps it's gas, but haven't refilled yet. I'll read the code with the JB4 when it arrives.

On that note, I purchased JB4 and ESS tunes. Will be playing with both over next few weeks and I'll see which one suits me best. I'm very excited to view logs on the JB4 so it will go on first. Maybe it won't come off...
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      02-26-2015, 11:35 AM   #53
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Wow, this spreadsheet is looking really nice!!
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      02-27-2015, 10:19 AM   #54
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Wait, how does the Dinan access full ecu? Isn't this then essentially not a piggy back or at least not a piggy back in the traditional sense?
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      02-27-2015, 10:25 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8600RPM View Post
Wait, how does the Dinan access full ecu? Isn't this then essentially not a piggy back or at least not a piggy back in the traditional sense?
The connection they use intercepts, or at least is allegedly capable of intercepting all signals before the ECU. All sensors can me monitored as to just MAP, TMAP, CAM.
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      02-27-2015, 10:55 AM   #56
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moved text to first post

Last edited by pigwet; 03-03-2015 at 10:52 AM..
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      02-27-2015, 11:06 AM   #57
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I didn't know the Dinan plugged into ecu. no wonder it's more costly, that's literally taking all signals
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      02-27-2015, 11:26 AM   #58
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Can someone who actually has the dinan tune on their f8x chime in.?How it effects daily driving (does it bring an obvious/noticeable extra level of fun)? If they've had any issues? Good info in this thread. But I'm new to tuning, so this time around I'm playing it safe and keeping it simple, and only considering the Dinan. .Boom.
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      02-27-2015, 11:31 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwingman View Post
Can someone who actually has the dinan tune on their f8x chime in.?How it effects daily driving (does it bring an obvious/noticeable extra level of fun)? If they've had any issues? Good info in this thread. But I'm new to tuning, so this time around I'm playing it safe and keeping it simple, and only considering the Dinan. .Boom.
Do a search in this section. Plenty of first hand reviews.
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      02-27-2015, 12:08 PM   #60
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I've read most of the threads. I'm fully aware that jb4 make more power, people who go with Dinan are stupid, and that Steve Dinan wears mom jeans. I've seen very little input (not none) from those who actually have it. Also, curious about how they like the Dinan tune now after maybe 10 or 15 thousand miles...
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      02-28-2015, 12:17 PM   #61
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I have the Stage 1 Dinan package installed in my 2015 M4 Convertible. It was installed 5 months ago (a few weeks after I picked up my car). I have about 5,000 miles on it. I love the everyday torque in the mid range. I have had two guys who track their 911 4S and can not believe how fast my car is and how it handles vs their 2011 911 4S. I could not be happier. For me it was worth every penny and the piece of mind with a $90k car. There is a great post of more detailed information of the Dinan Stage 1 real world experience in a different thread. Search for Dinan in the M3/M4 post section and you should find it. It will give you more real world experience from people who have this installed on their cars.
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      03-01-2015, 12:37 AM   #62
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Thinking of a JB1 but had anyone thrown a tuner detection code?
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      03-03-2015, 10:53 AM   #63
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Updated first post and table.
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      03-04-2015, 01:58 PM   #64
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Great document, thanks for taking the time to put this together. It would also be a good idea to add an entry on which Piggyback devices lock out the OBD2 port while in operation. This prevents any type of datalogging while on a dyno or can interfere with diagnostic scanner equipment unless disabled or bypassed.

We see a number of M3/M4 models on a regular basis with just about every configuration out there, so we'll be happy to provide updates as they come through.
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      03-06-2015, 07:03 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I'm really shocked that it appears only Dinan and JB4 offer it.

Mike
I'm shocked too considering how simple it is to interface with CAN.
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      03-06-2015, 09:19 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black335i View Post
Thinking of a JB1 but had anyone thrown a tuner detection code?
If this is a serious concern, I would recommend keeping the car stock.

Once you tune the car, you can't expect BMW to foot the bill for engine damage.
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