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      03-10-2015, 11:47 AM   #67
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A few updates.

I ended up purchasing two piggyback units and will be exploring them over the next few months - JB4 and ESS. I'm enjoying the logging and customer support of the JB4. I haven't yet decided if I will put on the ESS but we'll see. The ESS probably provides more gains than the JB4 from what I've seen but Stage 1 on the JB4 provides unbelievable power as is.

Admsit all the worry about potentially throwing codes upon installation of a piggyback, just before I was about to install the JB4 my *stock/babied* 6MT F80 with 5k miles threw a drivetrain error code coasting down the street. Pulled over, car idled rough, cycled the ignition, and code goes away. Hasn't been back. Maybe it was gas.

So all the threads about these cars throwing codes seems to be true. In fact, when I cleared my codes after installing the JB4, I had 13. (I also got a drivetrain error when I coded the VO to activate enhanced bluetooth, but I ended up returning to that to stock.) I suppose showing up at dealer without any codes is more indicative playing around under the hood than having them. (140010, 140210, 140001, 140201, CD8420, 121530, 000000, 0000F1, 241044, 022812, 15F125, 302812, anyone?)

--

I will attempt to illustrate how the car responds in terms if boost at an elevation of 6000 ft. Shown below are log runs using Map1 on a JB4 in comparison to Map 3 and Map 4. Map 1 provides a constant +4psi regardless of RPM. Map 3 is designed to be slightly more conservative at higher RPM for low octane fuel. Map 4 is a bypass map and simply allows you to log your information.

This first graph shows three logs. The recorded psi "ecu_psi x" after the car has compensated for being told that the boost is too low, the actual manifold pressure due to the piggyback "boost x", and the added boost "target boost". The target boost for Map 4 is zero since it is a stock map. You can see how Map 3 adjusts the target boost up then down and how the actual MAP pressure changes in response.

Also of note, the car stock produces around +18psi maximum boost at an elevation of 6000 ft with air temperature at 32F. This is similar to what I've seen others show at sea level. So the car does not appear to be adding more boost at elevation than at sea level unless the boost goes up considerably when the intake temperatures are hotter, which it should. Stated otherwise, it does not seem like the car is trying to achieve an absolute MAP pressure of (18+14.7) = 32.6psi, rather it is happy producing less power at (18 + 11.9) = 29.9. I'll get another run when it warms up.

(3rd gear, 6000ft, 32F, no mods other than JB4)


The second image shows the air to fuel ratio for all three maps. Nice alignment between the three.

(3rd gear, 6000ft, 32F, no mods other than JB4)

Last edited by pigwet; 03-11-2015 at 08:24 AM..
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      03-11-2015, 11:40 AM   #68
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I am pretty sure it's the colder air that's keeping boost low as its prob able to put down needed power without upping boost? Odd findings

You also stopped logging at 6k rpms? 7500 woukd be much more helpful as perhaps that's why we aren't seeing added boost
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      03-14-2015, 10:30 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid View Post
If this is a serious concern, I would recommend keeping the car stock.

Once you tune the car, you can't expect BMW to foot the bill for engine damage.
Why not, as long as you can revert back to stock why should it void the warranty and your dealer is not trying screw you, just tell them what you did and in my experience they do everything they can for your car not to be flagged. Most of the employees at BMW centers are gear heads them selves and understand the world of tuning and maximizing performance. My M tech always took care of me and deleted any codes that could have flagged my car and made the warranty invalid.

Jas anyone had any issues where the dealer said you altered your M3/M4 and you are now holding the bag.(and bill)?
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      03-14-2015, 10:46 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamousdiz View Post
Why not, as long as you can revert back to stock why should it void the warranty
If one modifies the car for increased performance and this modification causes damage to the engine, BMW shouldn't be expected to cover it under warranty.

Owners should be personally accountable for the results of the modifications that they make to their vehicle.
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      03-14-2015, 01:01 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid View Post
If one modifies the car for increased performance and this modification causes damage to the engine, BMW shouldn't be expected to cover it under warranty.

Owners should be personally accountable for the results of the modifications that they make to their vehicle.
Prove It. prove what I modified had a direct result in the malfunction. I understand your concept but most tunes are well within healthy parameters. why not make every attempt to hide your alteration, my first question for any tune would be "will be bmw know I did this and is it reversible?" Like any thing in life there are no guarantees but if they tell me clients have never reported a problem when bringing their car in for service I will roll the dice.
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      03-15-2015, 01:07 AM   #72
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Another update here.

First off is a comparison of the previous 6000ft@32F run in 3rd gear to a new 6000ft@62F run in 3rd gear. Same course, different day. Here you could argue the car compensates for the temperature increase by boosting +1psi more on both stock and MAP 1 configurations. In the stock case with outside temperature of 32F, the intake air temperature fell from 64F to 57F during the run, and fell from 87F to 84F when the outside temperature as 62F. The ~30F temperature increase from day 1 to day 2 amounts to a ~6% decrease in air density assuming 0% humidity.



Next up is a stock boost comparison of a 2nd gear run at 6200ft@47F vs. a 2nd gear run at 10500ft@27F. This is a little bit more questionable. I calculate there to be around a 11% difference in air density between the two altitudes/temps, possibly resulting in an increase in boost at altitude to compensate. Tough to tell. Very difficult to find a high altitude road you can do a 3rd gear pull to 100mph so 2nd gear had to suffice. Before doing the calculation, I was expecting to see a greater increase in boost at higher elevations. But I suppose this makes sense. Traction control did kick on at lower elevation, causing the dip at 3500rpm, but full throttle recovered to the higher elevation value by 4500rpm in the run.



And finally a comparison of 3rd gear pulls vs. 2nd gear pulls to see the potential differences. You can see traction control turn on in 2nd and 3rd at lower elevations. Again, full throttle recovers by 4500rpm.
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      03-16-2015, 07:41 PM   #73
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This is an awesome thread guys. I'm sure a lot of work went into compiling this spreadsheet. However, I'm a bit confused by some of the hp/tq claims made on the spreadsheet. For example, the ESS website claims "550 HP / 560 lb-ft tq" which is not the same as what is on the spreadsheet. Similar situation with the Dinan website and the spreadsheet. Perhaps I missed it but how do you reconcile the differences in the claims? Are we really to believe we're getting this type of hp and tq from piggybacks? Again, I applaud the effort here but am I the only one seeing the discrepancy in the numbers?
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      03-16-2015, 09:03 PM   #74
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The ESS claims are from a forum post by ESS, which has now been added for reference. Note they state crank horse power not wheel.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1046287

Same story for DINAN, they have a chart with the deltas.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1036115

I would take the advertised gains with a grain of salt. Independent dynos have been conducted on some of them in the sheet.
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      03-16-2015, 09:26 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
The ESS claims are from a forum post by ESS, which has now been added for reference. Note they state crank horse power not wheel.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1046287

Same story for DINAN, they have a chart with the deltas.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1036115

I would take the advertised gains with a grain of salt. Independent dynos have been conducted on some of them in the sheet.
We just completed testing of the E-Tronic in all modes, look for a separate thread this week showing data/dynos.

Also: ESS E-Tronic allows diagnostic scanning while connected (no OBD2 port lockout).
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      03-16-2015, 09:43 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
We just completed testing of the E-Tronic in all modes, look for a separate thread this week showing data/dynos.

Also: ESS E-Tronic allows diagnostic scanning while connected (no OBD2 port lockout).
JB4 also does in stage 1.
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      03-16-2015, 10:08 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
JB4 also does in stage 1.
It does, but I was referring to units that are tied into CAN.
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      03-17-2015, 10:44 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
The ESS claims are from a forum post by ESS, which has now been added for reference. Note they state crank horse power not wheel.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1046287

Same story for DINAN, they have a chart with the deltas.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1036115

I would take the advertised gains with a grain of salt. Independent dynos have been conducted on some of them in the sheet.
Got it....just as I thought. Thanks.
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      03-17-2015, 10:49 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
We just completed testing of the E-Tronic in all modes, look for a separate thread this week showing data/dynos.

Also: ESS E-Tronic allows diagnostic scanning while connected (no OBD2 port lockout).
Great. I'm looking forward to the results.
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      03-17-2015, 11:28 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
It does, but I was referring to units that are tied into CAN.
Interesting in the table it says ESS isn't tied into CAN. Says RPM/CAM angle and MAF in addition to the MAP/TMAP BMS STG 1 connects into. Do those two plugs essential provide the same data as the CANBUS?
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      03-19-2015, 07:41 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
Interesting in the table it says ESS isn't tied into CAN. Says RPM/CAM angle and MAF in addition to the MAP/TMAP BMS STG 1 connects into. Do those two plugs essential provide the same data as the CANBUS?
CANbus allows you to monitor every sensor on the vehicle which is why the higher end tunes include it. My only complaint with the Dinan product is the lack of data output and diagnostic code reading. I hope that is added with their future blue tooth application.
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      03-20-2015, 07:33 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongBeachDinanFan View Post
CANbus allows you to monitor every sensor on the vehicle which is why the higher end tunes include it. My only complaint with the Dinan product is the lack of data output and diagnostic code reading. I hope that is added with their future blue tooth application.
What do you mean from lack of diagnostic code reading ?
You can perform diagnostics with Dinantronics and perform factory coding without having to remove the harness, if that is what you are referring to.
I have coded, retrofitted, etc various modules with Dinantronics installed
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      03-20-2015, 07:37 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infamousdiz View Post
Prove It. prove what I modified had a direct result in the malfunction. I understand your concept but most tunes are well within healthy parameters. why not make every attempt to hide your alteration, my first question for any tune would be "will be bmw know I did this and is it reversible?" Like any thing in life there are no guarantees but if they tell me clients have never reported a problem when bringing their car in for service I will roll the dice.
The fault codes will store individual readings from multiple vehicle sensors showing how the vehicle was being operated at the time of a fault.
The only valid way of BMW to tell wont be from a "piggy back".. ECU flash would be obvious by being able to read the date, mileage and how many times the module was flashed.
So realistically, unless it was an engine failure then I wouldn't really think they would put that much effort to look into all of this.
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      03-20-2015, 09:54 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroKar View Post
What do you mean from lack of diagnostic code reading ?
You can perform diagnostics with Dinantronics and perform factory coding without having to remove the harness, if that is what you are referring to.
I have coded, retrofitted, etc various modules with Dinantronics installed
I mean the ability to read and clear diagnostic fault codes and output tuning data from the box itself. The Dinan install directions specify you need an external code reader to properly install the piggyback. Other piggybacks with CANbus have this functionality built in.
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      03-21-2015, 08:33 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroKar View Post
The fault codes will store individual readings from multiple vehicle sensors showing how the vehicle was being operated at the time of a fault.
The only valid way of BMW to tell wont be from a "piggy back".. ECU flash would be obvious by being able to read the date, mileage and how many times the module was flashed.
So realistically, unless it was an engine failure then I wouldn't really think they would put that much effort to look into all of this.
I have an ECU flash on my x5m, told my SA what I did he in turn told the head M tech and before he hooks it up to the BMW System he deletes any data that might effect my coverage. The SA was able to show me one time how they know I manipulated the ECU but as far as BMW was concerned they would not detect it.

When I purchase a piggy unit for my M3 I want to have the same deal with acceptable amount of risk
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      03-26-2015, 02:23 PM   #86
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Is this valid for other piggy backs as well?? Or is the Jb4 the only tune to offer this anti theft protection:

https://instagram.com/p/z0TV2xst00/?...=burger_tuning

"Another reason to own a JB.

Intent was to steal the car but the JB stopped them. Looks like they drilled/removed the exterior door lock to gain access. That didn't work so they tried to pry the glass away from the frame and insert a coat hanger to open the door. In the process of doing that they broke the glass and it shattered into a million pieces.
Once inside they accessed the OBD port but were unsuccessful in hi-jacking the car.
With a key FOB programmer you can clone a key right from the OBD II port. The JB prevented the key programmer from accessing the ECU.Glad our customer still has his car."
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      03-26-2015, 02:46 PM   #87
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hilarity ensues
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      03-26-2015, 03:05 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powaup View Post
Is this valid for other piggy backs as well?? Or is the Jb4 the only tune to offer this anti theft protection:

https://instagram.com/p/z0TV2xst00/?...=burger_tuning

"Another reason to own a JB.

Intent was to steal the car but the JB stopped them. Looks like they drilled/removed the exterior door lock to gain access. That didn't work so they tried to pry the glass away from the frame and insert a coat hanger to open the door. In the process of doing that they broke the glass and it shattered into a million pieces.
Once inside they accessed the OBD port but were unsuccessful in hi-jacking the car.
With a key FOB programmer you can clone a key right from the OBD II port. The JB prevented the key programmer from accessing the ECU.Glad our customer still has his car."
Crippling the OBD2 port shouldn't be marketed as an anti-theft device.
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