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      06-07-2019, 12:52 AM   #23
Ed_rx7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodlebro View Post
Your points are reasonable, but since VTT is putting their word out there that this solves the problem and will not slip, many of us would like them to put their money where their mouth is as a show of faith. The "no-slip guarantee" comes with a big asterisk. Hell, I'll go so far to say if they developed a product that requires an "expert" beyond your usual mechanic to install, that's not a great product and it's not "set apart from the rest" since it comes with all these what-ifs.

I don't know how this warranty is going to give anyone faith. If your valves and pistons become close friends you're not going to re-install the product that just caused it.

Also, none of this contemplates the recent issue with Ghassan's 135i build in which the VTT crank hub slipped. VTT has yet to make a statement about that situation, but the radio silence so far speaks volumes.
But they have addressed this. The 135 didnít have the full kit on. It lacked the CBC... they have said countless times that the spline lock and the CBC is the full solution and as of yet, no car has slipped with the full solution.
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      06-07-2019, 02:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ed_rx7 View Post
But they have addressed this. The 135 didn’t have the full kit on. It lacked the CBC... they have said countless times that the spline lock and the CBC is the full solution and as of yet, no car has slipped with the full solution.
Read through the thread yourself, it's at the top of sp00lstreet's octagon section

Tons of speculation on both sides, then lack of explanation other than "We'll talk with Ghassan and get back to you." They never got back. No one did.

Ghassan's setup also prevented the CBC from being installed IIRC, so you and VTT can't just back out of it that easily. Honestly hilarious how many logical hoops are being jumped through to support such a shady organization
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      06-07-2019, 04:11 AM   #25
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Why do yo say me and VVT???... when and where did I pick sides in all this... lol...you need to take it down a notch buddy. Whilst I agree that the Ďno slip warrantyí is Ill thought out, the fact still remains, as far as I am aware there has been no slip from the VVT ( complete ) solution to date.
Chris and Tom at EAS, has several times ( even on the first post on this thread)... referred to the both items being a complete solution.

Now regarding the no slip guarantee...
a half arsed guarantee is useless... it should be all or nothing. No point saying we will cover the part and Labour... if it didnít stand up to the task it was intended for!.....
Max psi and others havenít felt the need to offer any sort of warranty..... whilst Iím sure we all appreciate the sentiment.... we all know anything can happen at any time!!!!....and whilst I might have every confidence in my product... unless I can definitively prove without doubt that it wouldnít slip I wouldnít offer a warranty that didnít cover the engine also.... just my view

VVT state both need to be used at the same time.... therefore if you run only one for whatever reason you are taking a risk, in their eyes ... period

Until it can be proven that with the Ďcomplete solutioní fails then they should have just left things as they were and just modified/improved/enhanced the base product and left it at that!
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      06-07-2019, 11:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodlebro View Post
Your points are reasonable, but since VTT is putting their word out there that this solves the problem and will not slip, many of us would like them to put their money where their mouth is as a show of faith. The "no-slip guarantee" comes with a big asterisk. Hell, I'll go so far to say if they developed a product that requires an "expert" beyond your usual mechanic to install, that's not a great product and it's not "set apart from the rest" since it comes with all these what-ifs.

I don't know how this warranty is going to give anyone faith. If your valves and pistons become close friends you're not going to re-install the product that just caused it.

Also, none of this contemplates the recent issue with Ghassan's 135i build in which the VTT crank hub slipped. VTT has yet to make a statement about that situation, but the radio silence so far speaks volumes.
We would suggest speaking to Ghassan directly about this. They will tell you exactly this. They 100% went AGAINST our install recommendations. How so? They did not run a CBC, and they ran a damper we had experienced EXTREME vibrations with and removed them from all our cars. Once Ghassan has the issue, they confirmed yes we left the Crank bolt capture off as it will not fit the damper they used, and they ran the damper we suggested against. At this point, we asked for the hub to be sent back to us for inspection of claimed slip. Ghassan refused to send it back, then a week later released their own hub fix available with their built motors. We have zero beef with Ghassan, they owned up to leaving the full solution off, and to running the damper we suggested against, and they have even recently posted, yes VTT requested the parts back for inspection, and they decided not to return them.

You can do what you want with that info, but those are all facts. The stock motor S55 record holder is running V1 with zero issues. We run V1 in our 720WHP M3 that just did a 1/2 mile day and did 9 passes back to back no issues, we run them in all our N54 race cars with no issues. We would go as far as to do a test between a pinned hub, and our splined hub on a rig to see which one slipped first. If you take the time to read those links we posted, pins are used for alignment purposes ONLY. They are absolutely not designed to transfer TQ, on the other hand, splines are specifically designed to transfer TQ.

As for the no-slip guarantee, no aftermarket parts maker except people like Dinan are going to warranty engine damage in the event of a part failure, and the damage is the result. As Nars stated, we are the only ones to even guarantee our hubs not to slip. Go read the others guys hub disclaimer. Its basically install this at your own risk, if it slips, don't knock on our door.

Chris
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      06-07-2019, 11:54 AM   #27
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Are there any pictures of a crank that these have been pressed into. A before and after so we can see that the splines of the hub are actually pressed into the crank?
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      06-07-2019, 11:59 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
We would suggest speaking to Ghassan directly about this. They will tell you exactly this. They 100% went AGAINST our install recommendations. How so? They did not run a CBC, and they ran a damper we had experienced EXTREME vibrations with and removed them from all our cars. Once Ghassan has the issue, they confirmed yes we left the Crank bolt capture off as it will not fit the damper they used, and they ran the damper we suggested against. At this point, we asked for the hub to be sent back to us for inspection of claimed slip. Ghassan refused to send it back, then a week later released their own hub fix available with their built motors. We have zero beef with Ghassan, they owned up to leaving the full solution off, and to running the damper we suggested against, and they have even recently posted, yes VTT requested the parts back for inspection, and they decided not to return them.

You can do what you want with that info, but those are all facts. The stock motor S55 record holder is running V1 with zero issues. We run V1 in our 720WHP M3 that just did a 1/2 mile day and did 9 passes back to back no issues, we run them in all our N54 race cars with no issues. We would go as far as to do a test between a pinned hub, and our splined hub on a rig to see which one slipped first. If you take the time to read those links we posted, pins are used for alignment purposes ONLY. They are absolutely not designed to transfer TQ, on the other hand, splines are specifically designed to transfer TQ.

As for the no-slip guarantee, no aftermarket parts maker except people like Dinan are going to warranty engine damage in the event of a part failure, and the damage is the result. As Nars stated, we are the only ones to even guarantee our hubs not to slip. Go read the others guys hub disclaimer. Its basically install this at your own risk, if it slips, don't knock on our door.

Chris
If v1 was good enough, what made you to come up with v2? Or let me put it this way... If v1 was good enough, why not offer the same warranty for those who got the v1 installed at your preferred shops (e.g. VTT, EAS etc)?

I bought the v1 months ago along with the CBC directly from you guys. After seeing couple reports on the splines not biting into the crank, I decided to go with the CBC only. However, if I had gotten v1 installed and seen this thread, I would have been really upset. "v1 was good enough" isn't very convincing when there is a v2 in less than a year and it comes with some sort of warranty. 50% off on the v2 isn't gonna do much either. As you already know, the labor is what costs the most (EAS is quoting 20 hours for instance).
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      06-07-2019, 12:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
If v1 was good enough, what made you to come up with v2? Or let me put it this way... If v1 was good enough, why not offer the same warranty for those who got the v1 installed at your preferred shops (e.g. VTT, EAS etc)?

I bought the v1 months ago along with the CBC directly from you guys. After seeing couple reports on the splines not biting into the crank, I decided to go with the CBC only. However, if I had gotten v1 installed and seen this thread, I would have been really upset. "v1 was good enough" isn't very convincing when there is a v2 in less than a year and it comes with some sort of warranty. 50% off on the v2 isn't gonna do much either. As you already know, the labor is what costs the most (EAS is quoting 20 hours for instance).
Your question was directly answered in the first post, but if you do not feel like going back.

"Why a redesign, does this mean the original doesn't hold?
As of yet, we have had zero reported issues of the original Spline Lock slipping when properly installed and a CBC used with it. In fact, the only stock motor S55 running in the 9's runs one. So why the redesign? We're always innovating and while the original Spline Lock (with CBC) worked very well, we saw an opportunity to improve on a few design features, really step up the torque holding capability, and even offer a no-slip guarantee when installed at our (or one of our approved) shops."
"

Also following your logic, if the iPhone 1 was such a good design phone are we on the iPhone 10? Why are all the flashing software platforms for the S55 on VXXX? This thinking can be applied a million times over to companies that actually strive to improve on good designs. Improving on an existing product is what quality companies do. Does V1 work it works well. It does, it is proven to does, so why spend the money, and time to make some changes? Again because we strive for excellence, not "well it works let's leave it alone". It's a pretty simple concept that is used by successful companies the world over. We apologize you were not confident enough to install V1, but we appreciate you using our CBC.

As far as labor, it varies by shop. We have an install package where we will install a spline lock kit for $2000 with the hub kit, and labor. We will also install one with turbos for $1000 labor. If it makes you feel any better. We have plenty of the new hubs here, we won't be pulling them off to swap them on any of the VTT vehicles, we have put them through an extreme amount of abuse, and never lost a single one. We just wanted to make them even better, which we did.

Chris

Last edited by Chris@VargasTurboTech; 06-07-2019 at 01:02 PM..
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      06-07-2019, 01:01 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhaedeDPGH View Post
Are there any pictures of a crank that these have been pressed into. A before and after so we can see that the splines of the hub are actually pressed into the crank?
Yessir, please see below.

Chris
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      06-07-2019, 01:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
Your question was directly answered in the first post, but if you do not feel like going back. "Why a redesign, does this mean the original doesn't hold?
As of yet, we have had zero reported issues of the original Spline Lock slipping when properly installed and a CBC used with it. In fact, the only stock motor S55 running in the 9's runs one. So why the redesign? We're always innovating and while the original Spline Lock (with CBC) worked very well, we saw an opportunity to improve on a few design features, really step up the torque holding capability, and even offer a no-slip guarantee when installed at our (or one of our approved) shops."
"

Also following your logic, if the iPhone 1 was such a good design phone are we on the iPhone 10? Why are all the flashing software platforms for the S55 on VXXX? This thinking can be applied a million times over to companies that actually strive to improve on good designs. Improving on an existing product is what quality companies do. Does V1 work it works well. It does, it is proven to does, so why spend the money, and time to make some changes? Again because we strive for excellence, not "well it works let's leave it alone". It's a pretty simple concept that is used by successful companies the world over. We apologize you were not confident enough to install V1, but we appreciate you using our CBC.

As far as labor, it varies by shop. We have an install package where we will install a spline lock kit for $2000 with the hub kit, and labor. We will also install one with turbos for $1000 labor. If it makes you feel any better. We have plenty of the new hubs here, we won't be pulling them off to swap them on any of the VTT vehicles, we have put them through an extreme amount of abuse, and never lost a single one. We just wanted to make them even better, which we did.

Chris
There is nothing wrong with improving a product. However, if one version doesn't come with a warranty but another version that is introduced a few months later does then it raises questions. Both iPhone 1 and iPhone 10 came with the same warranty. If you guys trust v1 as much you trust v2 then you should offer the same support for those early adopters as well.
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      06-07-2019, 01:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
There is nothing wrong with improving a product. However, if one version doesn't come with a warranty but another version that is introduced a few months later does then it raises questions. Both iPhone 1 and iPhone 10 came with the same warranty. If you guys trust v1 as much you trust v2 then you should offer the same support for those early adopters as well.
We added the warranty simply to show how confident we are in the upgrade no other reason. We run these in our 900+WHP racecars with $15,000 in head work on them. If we were not confident we would not risk breaking those parts. We understand for most people seeing two pins is easier to grasp on why it holds things in place, but in reality that's not designed to hold anything, simply to align it. Most of the doubt of these came from one instance of a company with a purpose-built racecar that ignored our installation instructions and then refused to send the hub back so we could inspect it.

No offense to anyone involved there, but that's not really a fair situation to access success or failure on a product. If you take a set of cams and install them ignoring the instructions on how to do, leave parts out that are supposed to be part of the kit, then you have a failure. Is that the fault of the cam manufacturer, or the person who installed the cams? Both situations can be looked at the same. We hope everyone has a great weekend.

Chris

Last edited by Chris@VargasTurboTech; 06-07-2019 at 01:32 PM..
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      06-07-2019, 01:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
We added the warranty simply to show how confident we are in the upgrade no other reason. We run these in our 900+WHP racecars with $15,000 in head work on them. If we were not confident we would not risk breaking those parts. We understand for most people seeing two pins is easier to grasp on why it holds things in place, but in reality that's not designed to hold anything, simply to align it. Most of the doubt of these came from one instance of a company with a purpose-built racecar that ignored our installation instructions and then refused to send the hub back so we could inspect it.

No offense to anyone involved there, but that's not really a fair situation to access success or failure or a product. If you take a set of cams and install them ignoring the instructions on how to do, leave parts out that are supposed to be part of the kit, then you have a failure. Is that the fault of the cam manufacturer, or the person who installed the cams? Both situations can be looked at the same. We hope everyone has a great weekend.

Chris
Thanks Chris for the info. I have V1 and have no personal concern about the upgrade. What I don't understand, is that if people don't like the product....quit bitching about it on the net and simply don't BUY it!
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      06-07-2019, 01:52 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blockdoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
We added the warranty simply to show how confident we are in the upgrade no other reason. We run these in our 900+WHP racecars with $15,000 in head work on them. If we were not confident we would not risk breaking those parts. We understand for most people seeing two pins is easier to grasp on why it holds things in place, but in reality that's not designed to hold anything, simply to align it. Most of the doubt of these came from one instance of a company with a purpose-built racecar that ignored our installation instructions and then refused to send the hub back so we could inspect it.

No offense to anyone involved there, but that's not really a fair situation to access success or failure or a product. If you take a set of cams and install them ignoring the instructions on how to do, leave parts out that are supposed to be part of the kit, then you have a failure. Is that the fault of the cam manufacturer, or the person who installed the cams? Both situations can be looked at the same. We hope everyone has a great weekend.

Chris
Thanks Chris for the info. I have V1 and have no personal concern about the upgrade. What I don't understand, is that if people don't like the product....quit bitching about it on the net and simply don't BUY it!
I know right? If you don't like this product, there are maxpsi and gintani. Both been out for a while now without any issues. If you want to save money on parts then go with vtt. All the labor are about the same.
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      06-08-2019, 12:33 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
If v1 was good enough, what made you to come up with v2? Or let me put it this way... If v1 was good enough, why not offer the same warranty for those who got the v1 installed at your preferred shops (e.g. VTT, EAS etc)?

I bought the v1 months ago along with the CBC directly from you guys. After seeing couple reports on the splines not biting into the crank, I decided to go with the CBC only. However, if I had gotten v1 installed and seen this thread, I would have been really upset. "v1 was good enough" isn't very convincing when there is a v2 in less than a year and it comes with some sort of warranty. 50% off on the v2 isn't gonna do much either. As you already know, the labor is what costs the most (EAS is quoting 20 hours for instance).
Your question was directly answered in the first post, but if you do not feel like going back.

"Why a redesign, does this mean the original doesn't hold?
As of yet, we have had zero reported issues of the original Spline Lock slipping when properly installed and a CBC used with it. In fact, the only stock motor S55 running in the 9's runs one. So why the redesign? We're always innovating and while the original Spline Lock (with CBC) worked very well, we saw an opportunity to improve on a few design features, really step up the torque holding capability, and even offer a no-slip guarantee when installed at our (or one of our approved) shops."
"

Also following your logic, if the iPhone 1 was such a good design phone are we on the iPhone 10? Why are all the flashing software platforms for the S55 on VXXX? This thinking can be applied a million times over to companies that actually strive to improve on good designs. Improving on an existing product is what quality companies do. Does V1 work it works well. It does, it is proven to does, so why spend the money, and time to make some changes? Again because we strive for excellence, not "well it works let's leave it alone". It's a pretty simple concept that is used by successful companies the world over. We apologize you were not confident enough to install V1, but we appreciate you using our CBC.

As far as labor, it varies by shop. We have an install package where we will install a spline lock kit for $2000 with the hub kit, and labor. We will also install one with turbos for $1000 labor. If it makes you feel any better. We have plenty of the new hubs here, we won't be pulling them off to swap them on any of the VTT vehicles, we have put them through an extreme amount of abuse, and never lost a single one. We just wanted to make them even better, which we did.

Chris
Wow! The savings on install with turbo upgrade would certainly help with paying shipping from Hawaii to you for a full professionally installed setup i desire. Especially since there looks to be another 1.5k savings on install from get go over install costs here.

Chris, where are your trusted install shops located? Do they offer the same price for install? Does Hawaii have one or is shipping to mainland required? I really appreciate the advancement in warranty here. I'm on the fence with which turbo upgrade to go with for my M2C. As a package and with Garretts, your setup is looking more enticing since I dont have e85 here and will only be running pump. Kratos is also enticing given the reduced back pressure of their kit.

For those of u complaining, understand that this provides needed competition in the market for this extremely dreaded issue. I certainly welcome advancements in the product and now a warranty program. Though i agree that it is not the 100% hassle free option that i can wash my hands free of any responsibility for modifying my car, its a step closer. Competition will build. Thanks Chris!
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      06-08-2019, 01:22 PM   #36
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So I need some clarification on how all this works. *Beware Iím going to use very technical terms* Typically if the oem crank hub slips, itís basically a smooth surface to surface slip so the hub canít ďcatchĒ in that hole thingy. Thus the slip, refining of the engine and possible engine damage. The VTT solution has those line thingys grooved into it, so that creates a friction surface for the hole thingy so it will catch and hold? Now letís say your VTT hub tried to slip but those grooves caused it not to. Would the engine continue to run normally? If the engine tried to slip again, would those grooves be remade? Sorry guys Iím just super curious and also concerned. All this talk of the SCH just made me pay $5800 for an extended warranty till 104,000 miles. Maybe after that Iíll do this complete solution.
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      06-08-2019, 02:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpy1980 View Post
So I need some clarification on how all this works. *Beware I’m going to use very technical terms* Typically if the oem crank hub slips, it’s basically a smooth surface to surface slip so the hub can’t “catch” in that hole thingy. Thus the slip, refining of the engine and possible engine damage. The VTT solution has those line thingys grooved into it, so that creates a friction surface for the hole thingy so it will catch and hold? Now let’s say your VTT hub tried to slip but those grooves caused it not to. Would the engine continue to run normally? If the engine tried to slip again, would those grooves be remade? Sorry guys I’m just super curious and also concerned. All this talk of the SCH just made me pay $5800 for an extended warranty till 104,000 miles. Maybe after that I’ll do this complete solution.
You should spent that 5800 on crank hub fix and bm3 tune and enjoy it lol.
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      06-08-2019, 02:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpy1980 View Post
So I need some clarification on how all this works. *Beware Iím going to use very technical terms* Typically if the oem crank hub slips, itís basically a smooth surface to surface slip so the hub canít ďcatchĒ in that hole thingy. Thus the slip, refining of the engine and possible engine damage. The VTT solution has those line thingys grooved into it, so that creates a friction surface for the hole thingy so it will catch and hold? Now letís say your VTT hub tried to slip but those grooves caused it not to. Would the engine continue to run normally? If the engine tried to slip again, would those grooves be remade? Sorry guys Iím just super curious and also concerned. All this talk of the SCH just made me pay $5800 for an extended warranty till 104,000 miles. Maybe after that Iíll do this complete solution.
The VTT SplineLock Hub and Crank Bolt Capture (CBC) improves the surface area grip of the hub by utilizing splines in the hub and locking into place as well and still retaining the OEM friction discs for good measure. The Crank Hub isn't going anywhere after installation and the timing gears aren't weakened by drilling.

The CBC covers any potential issues with the crank hub bolt and designed to keep the crank bolt locked in position. Both the SplineLock and CBC are intended to work together as an overall, bulletproof solution to SCH worries in the future - especially on modified platforms.

Hope this helps.
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      06-08-2019, 03:59 PM   #39
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I like the wider spacing of the splines.....keeps more material in-between when you install it.


Alex

Last edited by AlexNFH; 06-08-2019 at 05:55 PM..
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      06-08-2019, 05:48 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avex8 View Post
You should spent that 5800 on crank hub fix and bm3 tune and enjoy it lol.
Oh Iím enjoying the car as is. Canyons and tracks canít stop me. Car has more than enough power. I just upgraded the suspension, wheels and exhaust. I think people feel as if they need more power when theyíre speeding on the freeway, which I donít do because Iím too old, responsible, of child and of wife that would tear me a new (__i__) if I were to get a bad speeding ticket. Whoever says that this car doesnít have enough power for the track, either is driving it wrong or should probably upgrade to a real dedicated track car.

If anything I wouldíve done this hub fix for a preventative measure, but having that extended warranty that will fix not only the engine but whatever else goes wrong, makes it worth than just fixing the motor with a new crank hub. My buddy just had his AC compressor on his e90 go out and that was an expensive job that warranty wouldíve covered but not upgrading the crank hub alone.
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      06-08-2019, 05:49 PM   #41
jpy1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
The VTT SplineLock Hub and Crank Bolt Capture (CBC) improves the surface area grip of the hub by utilizing splines in the hub and locking into place as well and still retaining the OEM friction discs for good measure. The Crank Hub isn't going anywhere after installation and the timing gears aren't weakened by drilling.

The CBC covers any potential issues with the crank hub bolt and designed to keep the crank bolt locked in position. Both the SplineLock and CBC are intended to work together as an overall, bulletproof solution to SCH worries in the future - especially on modified platforms.

Hope this helps.
Thank you Tom for the clarification! Iíll be seeing you in 58,000 miles for this fix!
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      06-16-2019, 03:16 PM   #42
Ilvez
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Good job! I asked from start why to use angled splines...

Is the picture of pressed hub from N54 or S55 crank snout?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
We at VTT are very excited to release our updated Spline Lock. Let's get right into all the details:

Design Details!
At a glance summary: we switched to straight splines, made them bigger, and increased the interference fit.
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      06-17-2019, 12:24 PM   #43
hz_diesel
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any of these trusted shops in Boston?
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      07-04-2019, 02:09 PM   #44
Chris@VargasTurboTech
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Happy 4th guys!


Check out our sale:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...5#post24990375
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