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      12-04-2018, 05:52 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower View Post
Non GT cars will lose a lot of money over time. I have a M2C coming to replace my 17 M2 already.
I dunno, if u drive a gt3 with normal miles it will depreciate pretty badly too.

gt3 is definitely not rare, it is the most mass produced 911 this year by a large margin.

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      12-04-2018, 08:33 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
I dunno, if u drive a gt3 with normal miles it will depreciate pretty badly too.

gt3 is definitely not rare, it is the most mass produced 911 this year by a large margin.

Attachment 1949144
One of my friends is selling his 991 gt3rs that's barely driven and he is getting below msrp offers and told me he feels the market has softened big time.

Seems pruden not to count on the "no depreciation from GT cars" as they way to afford such a car
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      12-05-2018, 11:24 AM   #421
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I would try the Alfa, don't worry about the reliability, it's spot on. I would recommend maybe an AR dealership that also has Maserati.
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      12-05-2018, 01:36 PM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
One of my friends is selling his 991 gt3rs that's barely driven and he is getting below msrp offers and told me he feels the market has softened big time.

Seems pruden not to count on the "no depreciation from GT cars" as they way to afford such a car
Probably has a 991.1. The 991.2 tanked the value on those. But yes if you can't afford the car you can't afford it.
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      12-05-2018, 02:22 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
I dunno, if u drive a gt3 with normal miles it will depreciate pretty badly too.

gt3 is definitely not rare, it is the most mass produced 911 this year by a large margin.

Attachment 1949144
Go see if you can buy a used 991.2 GT3 manual with LWB seats for less than sticker right now.
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      12-05-2018, 06:47 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower View Post
Go see if you can buy a used 991.2 GT3 manual with LWB seats for less than sticker right now.
I looked at used 991.1 gt3's before ordering my c2s new since my car was about 140k anyways. there were several available and the pricing reflects the mileage, as I said, they do depreciate when you drive them normal mileage. Plus I wanted PDK and normal seats.

991.2 gt3's started production barely a couple of years ago, there's hardly any because they just started selling them.

Just looked at Cars.com and you can see here:

Well optioned '15 GT3 150k+ new vs '16 911 gts 135k+ new. You can see the mileage is nearly identical, you can see the % depreciation is very close as well. No accidents/ clean car fax, both cars are from local dealers:

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      12-06-2018, 07:04 AM   #425
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F80 Replacement - What car are owners going to after?

Looking at picking up a used F80...have owned a variety of manual BMW's over the years, including an e90 M3, various 335i's, etc. On the fence between waiting for the perfect manual, low mile, enthusiast spec e90 (get in line...) or going the 6MT F80 route.

Curious as to what car F80 owners are going to after offloading their M3? Aside from the terrible exhaust sound, any major gripes or issues contributing to the eventual sale? From what I found online, they seem relatively reliable; however my local independent shop owner said he's seen a variety coming in for all sorts of weird issues...not one thing in particular. As I am likely looking at a 15-16 with maybe a year of warranty at most left, I am hoping to get into something that is not going to be in the shop constantly...

Thanks in advance for any input!
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      12-06-2018, 08:07 AM   #426
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I'll hold on to it for a while. Dream is to replace it with a manual 991.2 GT3

Regarding the F80: Exhaust tone can be fixed with cold-start delete (done) and aftermarket exhaust (done).

It is hard to find a manual transmission performance sedan. This one is the best of the bunch.

I'd get an E63 AMG if it had a manual...
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      12-06-2018, 08:28 AM   #427
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Keeping mine for the long haul. No issues yet *knock on wood* over past 3 years (!!). Amazing car and I think the exhaust sounds fine - never understood the anger there
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      12-06-2018, 08:31 AM   #428
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Warning! Minority opinion ahead

I love the s55 sound. If I wanted a v8 sound track, I would have bought a different car
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      12-06-2018, 09:08 AM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inglewood View Post
Looking at picking up a used F80...have owned a variety of manual BMW's over the years, including an e90 M3, various 335i's, etc. On the fence between waiting for the perfect manual, low mile, enthusiast spec e90 (get in line...) or going the 6MT F80 route.

Curious as to what car F80 owners are going to after offloading their M3? Aside from the terrible exhaust sound, any major gripes or issues contributing to the eventual sale? From what I found online, they seem relatively reliable; however my local independent shop owner said he's seen a variety coming in for all sorts of weird issues...not one thing in particular. As I am likely looking at a 15-16 with maybe a year of warranty at most left, I am hoping to get into something that is not going to be in the shop constantly...

Thanks in advance for any input!
I'll be holding mine for the foreseeable future, especially given I decided to buy my lease out this past May. I’d love to add the same type of E90 you’re on the fence about, but it wouldn’t necessarily be an F80 replacement if found.

The F80 is really the perfect Jekyll/hyde car, and if a 6MT is a need, it’s both your best & only option. Stock v Stock it’s a totally different animal than an E9x car, much more violent and much more capable.

The exhaust sound topic, where to start. This has been bantered about endlessly on the platform and it’s always going to be a taste issue, there’s no “right” answer to ‘does/can this car sound good?’ I am a V8 lover, but also need violence, comfort, and reliability in my fun 4 door car – the F8x fit my bill here. I very much disliked the sound of my car out of the box as a stock civic spec 2015 car. An exhaust was done on the car by the 1200 mile servicing and I’ve not looked back since. I went AWE Resonated – it’s not wild, it’s not childish, but throaty, bassy and I can entice those juvenile crackles on overrun when wanted, or avoid them easily if not. For my dollar, it’s the best exhaust option on the car if trying to keep stock DP’s. If you don’t care about the startup/idle smell from going catless, I would have just done DP’s and Active midpipe with stock rear section – and saved a couple thousand dollars in the process. Again, ymmv on that – all about taste.

Getting to the reliability concern; So far (KNOCKS ON WOOD INTENTLY!) the platform seems to be quite robust. I actually went searching for the earliest RB issue report I could find on an E9x a few days back and it looks like by late 2009 this was a known concern. Yes, we in the F8x world have our little Crank Hub issue, but that hasn’t looked to be nearly as widespread of a concern as the RB S65 problems were/are. We’ve got forum members here at and above 75k miles on the platform, we’ve got members with 35-40k on FBO cars here, and we have others who are at 40+ track days on them. Large scale worrisome issues haven’t yet cropped up. The Crank Hub failures all look to be related to one of three things:

(1) Abusing the car – not letting it be warm before really honing, tons of kickdown downshifts etc.
(2) A very small number of bad torque specs leaving the factory
(3) Flash/JB4 tuning the car

If you always treat the car with respect as a machine – not saying don’t drive it how it’s built to be driven, more saying don’t ride her hard cold and put her away wet, you know - then you should be able to avoid the dreaded CH issue. You can always proactively address it, but the volume of CH issues vs. production run compared to E9x RB issue rate seems much lower, anecdotally.

If the car was out for 18-24 months, I’d fully understand the open ended concern, but so far the platform has proven strong and stable. Good luck!
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      12-06-2018, 09:19 AM   #430
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Honestly, the ZCP sound is pretty good until high RPM's - much better than base options out there. I enjoy the note at low-mid rpm and don't think it's that terrible even at high rpm.

Last edited by omega2733; 12-06-2018 at 09:26 AM..
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      12-06-2018, 01:06 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower View Post
Probably has a 991.1. The 991.2 tanked the value on those. But yes if you can't afford the car you can't afford it.
That's right he has a .1

"tanked" meaning its used car price is just below MSRP versus selling for over MSRP.
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      12-06-2018, 01:13 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inglewood View Post
Looking at picking up a used F80...have owned a variety of manual BMW's over the years, including an e90 M3, various 335i's, etc. On the fence between waiting for the perfect manual, low mile, enthusiast spec e90 (get in line...) or going the 6MT F80 route.

Curious as to what car F80 owners are going to after offloading their M3? Aside from the terrible exhaust sound, any major gripes or issues contributing to the eventual sale? From what I found online, they seem relatively reliable; however my local independent shop owner said he's seen a variety coming in for all sorts of weird issues...not one thing in particular. As I am likely looking at a 15-16 with maybe a year of warranty at most left, I am hoping to get into something that is not going to be in the shop constantly...

Thanks in advance for any input!
A lot people on these forums go to Porsche of some sort

a '15 with low options (like my old car) would be perfect for you. use the money saved on aftermarket exhaust, wider wheels, and full coilovers and it will be an amazing car for years to come.

no gripes or issues from my end, just a desire for "always on" car with a lower seating position, and always planning to get a 911 after euro delivery M3 experience.

I really think F80 is the most out of the box track ready M3 ever, and in my opinion, if it was launched with MPE and cup 2 tires as standard in 2015, it would have been getting great reviews from the start
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      12-07-2018, 10:16 AM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RowanBuds View Post
Yes, we in the F8x world have our little Crank Hub issue, but that hasn’t looked to be nearly as widespread of a concern as the RB S65 problems were/are. We’ve got forum members here at and above 75k miles on the platform, we’ve got members with 35-40k on FBO cars here, and we have others who are at 40+ track days on them. Large scale worrisome issues haven’t yet cropped up. The Crank Hub failures all look to be related to one of three things:

(1) Abusing the car – not letting it be warm before really honing, tons of kickdown downshifts etc.
(2) A very small number of bad torque specs leaving the factory
(3) Flash/JB4 tuning the car
I'd like to add to this/modify this a bit.

On the S65, stock cars had rod bearings issues and BMW appears to have revised the rod bearings ~4x while maintaining the same part number.

On the S55, we have a very small handful of crank hub spins. Of that VERY SMALL NUMBER, almost none are stock (a few are). Of those FEW that are stock, they are DCTs. I'm not going to count a spun crank hub on a money shifted manual transmission car - I haven't read a credible report of a manual transmission stock s55 spinning a crank hub. Consider that about 1/3rd of S55s are spec'd with a manual transmission. Therefore, the issue shouldn't be considered a stock S55 issue - because it's not the S55 itself that causes it. Further, many SCH create timing issues - not engine replacement issues (some do cause engine replacement issues). If you accept that, then compare to the S65 and consider that the S65 had an integral engine issue, the S55 is ridiculously rock solid.

Of the overall very small number of spun crank hubs, they are overwhelming tuned. For whatever near unidentifiable reason, tuning is causing crank hubs to spin at a very small failure rate. And it's not directly proportional to power output.

I had an e39 m5 before my 2015 m3. The S62 in that is a legendary v8 engine - and that engine has questions around VANOS, rod bearings, oil consumption, weak stock clutch, and many more items.

By comparison the S55 is quite possibly the best stock M engine in terms of reliability, efficiency, output, tunability....the list goes on.

Not to be over the top, but it's going to be hard to top the S55 in terms of it's overall balanced excellence.
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      12-30-2018, 10:58 PM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
I dunno, if u drive a gt3 with normal miles it will depreciate pretty badly too.

gt3 is definitely not rare, it is the most mass produced 911 this year by a large margin.
Yes, GT cars (GT3 + RS + 2RS) account for 24% of the total 911s on that list. However you need to also remember they typically only produce them every 2-3 years. So if you look at the entire 991 lifecycle, it's probably closer to 10-15%.

Regardless, they still depreciate just like every other non limited, numbered car but not nearly as much as the bath you'll take on an M car. I know plenty of folks that got 991.2 delivered at the start of 2018 and were able to put 3-4k miles on and still sell for profit or break even. I don't know a single person who's sold one below MSRP unless it was optioned terribly. But that market is softening as the bubble gets bigger and too many people are holding onto these hoping to make a quick buck and will end up disappointed.

You can see what's happening to the 991.1 market now that the 991.2 is out and likely the same thing will happen when the 992 is released. These cars depreciate but you'll still likely do better than you would on most mass-market cars.
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      12-30-2018, 11:26 PM   #435
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Honda odyssey, they seem to be the kings of the roads and i wanna be that too.
Bullshit. Kings of the Roads drive massive lifted pickup trucks because small penis.
I wonder how guys over on the pickup forums ridicule us sports car owners??
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      12-31-2018, 10:08 AM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_DM View Post
Yes, GT cars (GT3 + RS + 2RS) account for 24% of the total 911s on that list. However you need to also remember they typically only produce them every 2-3 years. So if you look at the entire 991 lifecycle, it's probably closer to 10-15%.

Regardless, they still depreciate just like every other non limited, numbered car but not nearly as much as the bath you'll take on an M car. I know plenty of folks that got 991.2 delivered at the start of 2018 and were able to put 3-4k miles on and still sell for profit or break even. I don't know a single person who's sold one below MSRP unless it was optioned terribly. But that market is softening as the bubble gets bigger and too many people are holding onto these hoping to make a quick buck and will end up disappointed.

You can see what's happening to the 991.1 market now that the 991.2 is out and likely the same thing will happen when the 992 is released. These cars depreciate but you'll still likely do better than you would on most mass-market cars.
Does anyone know what the value of a GT3 would be if you took it, second hand, from say 15k miles to 50-60k miles?

I’m curious if the absolute drop in value would be greater than for an M3.

Let’s assume the $75k M3 drops to $35k at 50,000 miles.
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      12-31-2018, 11:47 AM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Does anyone know what the value of a GT3 would be if you took it, second hand, from say 15k miles to 50-60k miles?

I’m curious if the absolute drop in value would be greater than for an M3.

Let’s assume the $75k M3 drops to $35k at 50,000 miles.
You can probably figure this out easily if you look at Cargurus, autotrader etc and filter for 50k+ mile GT3s, although you likely won’t find that many with that many miles.

I would guess they’d be right around $100k but not too much lower. So yes probably as large of a drop in absolute $ but not as a % of MSRP.

Just my guess.
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      01-01-2019, 03:32 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Does anyone know what the value of a GT3 would be if you took it, second hand, from say 15k miles to 50-60k miles?

I’m curious if the absolute drop in value would be greater than for an M3.

Let’s assume the $75k M3 drops to $35k at 50,000 miles.
A Rennlist thread popped up that may help you answer this. Here

Looks like even at 35k miles they're moving close to $115k, granted the Bay Area market is one of the stronger ones.
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      01-01-2019, 03:34 PM   #439
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I’m looking close at new cls53 amg.
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      01-01-2019, 07:20 PM   #440
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after being on a list for a year, finally got my gt3 touring allocation just before christmas (without ADM). taking delivery in atlanta so i can see which marque does a better stateside delivery process.

the M will move to track car duty is the plan, with the gt3t being my very capable daily
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