Crank Hub Issue Master Thread: What You Need To Know!

[GTME2010]

Originally Posted by rosemont83

No 2020 data?
That's weird on the 6mt being higher failure.. It does seem like everyone that is on ethanol has the issue

Sorry, 2018 should be 2018+

[Bettertomorrow]

It really comes down to personal comfort level. When I had E63 with M156 motor, there was a huge noise with head bolts, a lot of people doing head bolts as preventive maintenance. I bought the car used with high miles (80k? one owner), drove decently hard at times (no track) for additional 40-50k and it was one of the most reliable German cars I ever had.

CBC costs about $100, about 2-3 hours in your garage (if you are handy), and you can feel reasonably safe. If you are all about wanting to join 1000 rwhp club, if you allocate that much resource to that much degree, why not spend another 4-5k for full CH job to feel reasonably safer. But at that level, wouldn't you be worried about other things? Tune going wrong, fuel going wrong, and other supporting parts going wrong? At some point, perhaps one should consider settling with "reasonably safe", where that point is up to individual.

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Bettertomorrow

It really comes down to personal comfort level. When I had E63 with M156 motor, there was a huge noise with head bolts, a lot of people doing head bolts as preventive maintenance. I bought the car used with high miles (80k? one owner), drove decently hard at times (no track) for additional 40-50k and it was one of the most reliable German cars I ever had.

CBC costs about $100, about 2-3 hours in your garage (if you are handy), and you can feel reasonably safe. If you are all about wanting to join 1000 rwhp club, if you allocate that much resource to that much degree, why not spend another 4-5k for full CH job to feel reasonably safer. But at that level, wouldn't you be worried about other things? Tune going wrong, fuel going wrong, and other supporting parts going wrong? At some point, perhaps one should consider settling with "reasonably safe", where that point is up to individual.

I second this. I would just say if you are going to run just the CBC just make sure the crank bolt is torqued back into spec or as tight as possible before installing it.

If the bolt is already a tiny bit loose it could potentially cause a slip from the friction disk. I find it very hard to believe that outside of crazy power that a CBC + properly torqued crank bolt would result in SCH.

I ran the insane performance hub on my last f82 running full E with no issues but saw upon installing the friction disk had a part of it that was completely missing.

Who knows if this happened from when the car was stock, or the couple hundred miles running stage 2 without the hub done.

I would think the former which would suggest that most hubs spin ( even on stock cars ) from the crank bolt not being tight enough which is a big issue once you tune and put more strain around the friction disk. I could be wrong and would love to be able to buy a test car to actually study this in-depth. Of course if you just want to spend 3-5k just do the full solution and never think about SCH again like I did for my last f82.

It does feel nice to have pure peace of mind, but I don't think I would personally do the hub on my current car as the furthest i'd go is custom 93 on stock turbos which cbc should be fine.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Just a heads up, 2021 14k miles DCT S55 spun my hub making 550whp. Never launched or used kickdown, havent taken the car over 7k rpm since 4k mile mark. large part of this cars life is commuting with occasional hooning on weekends.

Car spun the hub just turning it on... it was parked.

Just adding some data that the last s55 production year hasnt fixed anything.

New hub is in and car is performing flawlessly

Build date: 02/2021

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Just a heads up, 2021 14k miles DCT S55 spun my hub making 550whp. Never launched or used kickdown, havent taken the car over 7k rpm since 4k mile mark. large part of this cars life is commuting with occasional hooning on weekends.

Car spun the hub just turning it on... it was parked.

Just adding some data that the last s55 production year hasnt fixed anything.

New hub is in and car is performing flawlessly

Build date: 02/2021

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

Just a heads up, 2021 14k miles DCT S55 spun my hub making 550whp. Never launched or used kickdown, havent taken the car over 7k rpm since 4k mile mark. large part of this cars life is commuting with occasional hooning on weekends.

Car spun the hub just turning it on... it was parked.

Just adding some data that the last s55 production year hasnt fixed anything.

New hub is in and car is performing flawlessly

Build date: 02/2021

550whp e85 or custom 93. Also, $ in repairs if I may ask?

[M2_MEDUSA]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

550whp e85 or custom 93. Also, $ in repairs if I may ask?

E40 and 50/50 water meth for cooling. Car made less power than most e85 tuned cars. I had a crank hub appointment already scheduled that day so I was preety lucky but unlucky all at once. Was about $1,300 in labor. I already had the crankhub with me. so all in all $1,750 parts and labor.

[JcLusso]

Originally Posted by GTME2010

Cross posting from the poll results:

Here is the March 31, 2022 Poll Data summarized:

Stock [N=758] vs Modified [N=587]:
Stock F/R: 2.9%
Modified F/R: 18.9%

6MT [N=465] vs. DCT [N=880] + Stock vs. Modified
6MT:
Stock [N=277] F/R: 4.33%
Modified [N=188] F/R: 23.9%

DCT:
Stock [N=481] F/R: 2.08%
Modified [N=399] F/R: 16.54%

Failure Rate by MY
2015 [N= 459]: 9.59%
2016 [N= 323]: 8.05%
2017 [N= 192]: 7.29%
2018 [N= 371]: 13.21%

Interesting that the 6MT F/R is actually higher than DCT, since everything I've read seems to indicate harshness of DCT being a major factor. However, the biggest contributor is still modified vs. stock.
Also interesting that 2018 seems to have a slightly higher F/R than the other MYs even though the ratio of modified vs. stock is similar to other years.

Can you link to the poll please. Also, what is the percent based on?

If it's based on the total number of people that voted, it's entirely flawed. For example, I never voted and I have had two FBO F80 with no SCH on first and second still fine. Additionally, I've said this in past, but the people on Bimmerpost represent an extremely small fraction of the owners of this car.

[Tangent]

Originally Posted by JcLusso

...If it's based on the total number of people that voted, it's entirely flawed. For example, I never voted and I have had two FBO F80 with no SCH on first and second still fine. Additionally, I've said this in past, but the people on Bimmerpost represent an extremely small fraction of the owners of this car.

That's really the biggest problem with this entire issue. It's like going to a hospital and using the percentages of sick vs healthy people there to determine the health of the entire country. Considering that I've read reports from people who talked to their service advisors about this and they had no idea what they were even talking about it really doesn't seem to be nearly as widespread as forums would make it seem.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Originally Posted by Tangent

That's really the biggest problem with this entire issue. It's like going to a hospital and using the percentages of sick vs healthy people there to determine the health of the entire country. Considering that I've read reports from people who talked to their service advisors about this and they had no idea what they were even talking about it really doesn't seem to be nearly as widespread as forums would make it seem.

I spun my hub with this mentality and still believe its pretty rare. If you took n=10,000 S55's all making 500+ your total score of spun hubs would be much greater then n=10,000 stock s55's.

You have to look at this differently, when your modded heavily your not taking your car to the dealer.. so these SA's never hear much about it. But it does happen once you get up in power. its not a high failure rate but its a failure rate none the less and it does happen to a higher degree then those stock.

I knew it was rare, dismissed it for the majority. Then the car spun its hub while it was parked. SA well never hear of my story.. That's because I'm modded, no point and many other share this same sentiment.

At the end of the day its risk vs reward. Are you willing to accept the possible risks of what may happen as a result of a spun hub. If so then ignore it. But air on the side of caution always and drop the penny to get a fix if you cant deal with the outcomes of the risks.

If it does spin 99% of the time you just need re timed anyway.

[Info@mad-us.com]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

I spun my hub with this mentality and still believe its pretty rare. If you took n=10,000 S55's all making 500+ your total score of spun hubs would be much greater then n=10,000 stock s55's.

You have to look at this differently, when your modded heavily your not taking your car to the dealer.. so these SA's never hear much about it. But it does happen once you get up in power. its not a high failure rate but its a failure rate none the less and it does happen to a higher degree then those stock.

I knew it was rare, dismissed it for the majority. Then the car spun its hub while it was parked. SA well never hear of my story.. That's because I'm modded, no point and many other share this same sentiment.

At the end of the day its risk vs reward. Are you willing to accept the possible risks of what may happen as a result of a spun hub. If so then ignore it. But air on the side of caution always and drop the penny to get a fix if you cant deal with the outcomes of the risks.

If it does spin 99% of the time you just need re timed anyway.

+1 and let's be real most SA don't know much about the modding world unless they have a modified car themselves.

[Devincey]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

E40 and 50/50 water meth for cooling. Car made less power than most e85 tuned cars. I had a crank hub appointment already scheduled that day so I was preety lucky but unlucky all at once. Was about $1,300 in labor. I already had the crankhub with me. so all in all $1,750 parts and labor.

Which crank hub did you go with?

[M2_MEDUSA]

Originally Posted by Devincey

Which crank hub did you go with?

I went with the vargus v2 spline lock and crank bolt capture combo.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by SpecialEdition_F87

I spun my hub with this mentality and still believe its pretty rare. If you took n=10,000 S55's all making 500+ your total score of spun hubs would be much greater then n=10,000 stock s55's.

You have to look at this differently, when your modded heavily your not taking your car to the dealer.. so these SA's never hear much about it. But it does happen once you get up in power. its not a high failure rate but its a failure rate none the less and it does happen to a higher degree then those stock.

I knew it was rare, dismissed it for the majority. Then the car spun its hub while it was parked. SA well never hear of my story.. That's because I'm modded, no point and many other share this same sentiment.

At the end of the day its risk vs reward. Are you willing to accept the possible risks of what may happen as a result of a spun hub. If so then ignore it. But air on the side of caution always and drop the penny to get a fix if you cant deal with the outcomes of the risks.

If it does spin 99% of the time you just need re timed anyway.

I'll be pretty quick to bet the people in forums drive their cars more like they do in video games (SCH) than the average guy in the majority or not on the forums.

[AngelsofVerdun]

If I were to slap a set of Active Autowerke Catted DPs on this car, would I significantly increase the risk of spinning my hub? The goal with the AA DPs is to avoid a CEL and get a bit more noise out of the car; I have no true intention of increasing speed or tuning the car.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by AngelsofVerdun

If I were to slap a set of Active Autowerke Catted DPs on this car, would I significantly increase the risk of spinning my hub? The goal with the AA DPs is to avoid a CEL and get a bit more noise out of the car; I have no true intention of increasing speed or tuning the car.

No added risk from installing downpipes.

[melanthius]

I just got SSR pinned crank hub (the shop added VTT bolt capture as well)

At this point, my car is 2015 with over 60k miles. Things are starting to get old and break. I got it done at the same time as the valve cover / PCV that failed (squealing nose that goes away if you open the oil filler cap)

I figure it is either put in the few thousand $ to do the crank now, and keep driving the shit out of it, and then have a car that still maintains some value in the aftermarket down the road, or think about getting a different car now.

Given the climate of "what it's like to buy cars in 2020-2022" and my budget for "other cars", and "what car I would actually want to buy" it was an easy decision to keep the F80 around for a while.

If you're thinking about doing it, you should ask yourself the same question you should be asking yourself if you are considering any mod - what are your GOALS for the car. If your goal is to keep it around and maintain some value well after the warranty period has expired, then it's a no brainer. In a few years most enthusiast buyers will be wanting an F80 that has had this done, properly, already. There won't be any more warranties. There will only be buyers looking at buying a 8+ year old car that they are scared is going to break down and cost them $10k+ to fix if it doesn't have the crank hub fix.


IMO your driving style should not factor into this decision at all. You either do this thing, or you roll the dice twice - once when you are driving it out of warranty, and again when trying to sell an aging BMW to a fellow enthusiast. Of course you can trade it in, but that's a different story and getting potentially ripped off.

[iflowboy]

Think I read a lot of this thread to get to this point. It does not seem there is anything conclusive to identify the cause of the Crank Hub failures that those cars/owners have experienced. It seems a mix of cars in terms of age, milage, OEM versus modified, transmission.
What else is a likely contributor to the issue, if nothing conclusive can be derived from examining the above factors of vehicle age (yr of manufacture), milage, transmission, modifications)?? Perhaps it is the way the car is driven in combination with one - or all - of these factors. Could it also be related to servicing, choice of lubricants etc?? Perhaps.
I am not an engineer, or a mechanic. But I am also of the belief that BMW engineers are the experts on the machines they build. They are the true keepers of all BMW engine development data and usage data (especially of cars built in the last 30-40 years). So doesn't it stand to reason that we should take their guidance more seriously than any comparatively small workshop?
I haven't seen anyone question why, if these vehicles are capable of easily accommodating an extra 100-200 BHP, why doesn't BMW just sell the vehicle at that specification?? I know most on this forum know this is a rhetorical question (and I might have missed someone asking it - apologies if I did). Just like there is launch control available but the BMW handbook references using Launch Control excessively, so too other driving behaviour, of a repetitive nature, is most likely going to cause other components to be compromised.
From my minimal understanding, the crank shaft drives the crank hub. That is a purely mechanical process. Computers control fuel, air etc which in turn determine how the crank shaft "behaves"..... that in turn is controlled by your right foot (and your left foot in 6MT).
From what I have read, the standard part has not broken - but come loose, impacting parts of the HUB (again correct me if I am wrong). In combination with the other above, points, this leads me to firstly question the logic behind these alternate design HUBS - against BMW's design philosophy for the same part.
That is, the 3 piece design is to allow for "slippage" which in turn is to account for "vibrations". A fixed HUB could not have the same ability to cope with these vibrations, could they?
So the question, for me, is do you want a HUB that might loosen the securing bolt which might impact the timing, but if attended to immediately won't cause serious intake/engine damage, or do you want a HUB that won't loosen - but which will potentially break - and potentially cause significant damage to the intake and engine??
My 2018 F80 Comp is now 57,000 kms young and is OEM mechanically. It is DCT and I have never used launch control - and have never banged it from 5th down to second like its a Gran Turismo car. I am weary of the Crank Hub issue - but am as weary of replacing the Crank Hub with a non-OEM part too.
My logic is that everyone can modify their car and drive it how they please but the consequences will be based on exactly that. I did read replacing the bolt itself every year or so was a BMW recommendation, though not sure if that is authentic. I plan to ask my BMW dealer or BMW AG, depending on the dealer response.
This is my choice as I buy BMW's in belief of their engineering and defer to them first and maybe even finally. It's a safer choice in my opinion.

[John matuszak]

I had my Crank hub replaced at 50,000km and the friction disc was split and had deteriorated significantly. I see the crank hub as similar to a clutch on manual car. Although it doesn’t engage and rengage it’s still a friction disc just like a clutch and just like a clutch it wears down over time, just my 2c.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by iflowboy

Think I read a lot of this thread to get to this point. It does not seem there is anything conclusive to identify the cause of the Crank Hub failures that those cars/owners have experienced. It seems a mix of cars in terms of age, milage, OEM versus modified, transmission.
What else is a likely contributor to the issue, if nothing conclusive can be derived from examining the above factors of vehicle age (yr of manufacture), milage, transmission, modifications)?? Perhaps it is the way the car is driven in combination with one - or all - of these factors. Could it also be related to servicing, choice of lubricants etc?? Perhaps.
I am not an engineer, or a mechanic. But I am also of the belief that BMW engineers are the experts on the machines they build. They are the true keepers of all BMW engine development data and usage data (especially of cars built in the last 30-40 years). So doesn't it stand to reason that we should take their guidance more seriously than any comparatively small workshop?
I haven't seen anyone question why, if these vehicles are capable of easily accommodating an extra 100-200 BHP, why doesn't BMW just sell the vehicle at that specification?? I know most on this forum know this is a rhetorical question (and I might have missed someone asking it - apologies if I did). Just like there is launch control available but the BMW handbook references using Launch Control excessively, so too other driving behaviour, of a repetitive nature, is most likely going to cause other components to be compromised.
From my minimal understanding, the crank shaft drives the crank hub. That is a purely mechanical process. Computers control fuel, air etc which in turn determine how the crank shaft "behaves"..... that in turn is controlled by your right foot (and your left foot in 6MT).
From what I have read, the standard part has not broken - but come loose, impacting parts of the HUB (again correct me if I am wrong). In combination with the other above, points, this leads me to firstly question the logic behind these alternate design HUBS - against BMW's design philosophy for the same part.
That is, the 3 piece design is to allow for "slippage" which in turn is to account for "vibrations". A fixed HUB could not have the same ability to cope with these vibrations, could they?
So the question, for me, is do you want a HUB that might loosen the securing bolt which might impact the timing, but if attended to immediately won't cause serious intake/engine damage, or do you want a HUB that won't loosen - but which will potentially break - and potentially cause significant damage to the intake and engine??
My 2018 F80 Comp is now 57,000 kms young and is OEM mechanically. It is DCT and I have never used launch control - and have never banged it from 5th down to second like its a Gran Turismo car. I am weary of the Crank Hub issue - but am as weary of replacing the Crank Hub with a non-OEM part too.
My logic is that everyone can modify their car and drive it how they please but the consequences will be based on exactly that. I did read replacing the bolt itself every year or so was a BMW recommendation, though not sure if that is authentic. I plan to ask my BMW dealer or BMW AG, depending on the dealer response.
This is my choice as I buy BMW's in belief of their engineering and defer to them first and maybe even finally. It's a safer choice in my opinion.

In Europe this is a laughing matter from the US. Apparently ~95%(?) of the failures only happen in the US and almost none in Europe. Stock to FBO/tune, DCT/6sp, all years/models, which is only pointing to human factor error. In my conversations with shops in Charlotte (and there are plenty), Turner, Bimmerworld, etc, and all want to sell you this crackhub AND the labor charge. This data can suggest it is largely a user error which could include using kickdown and not properly warming the car. Also using the flappy paddles like a game controller...ffs. In my "engineering opinion", down shifting or money shifting the car is the most likely time the engine will do it for sure especially when not warmed up. That is the time of the highest stress on the assembly that would split the washer or back off the assembly. Again, this is after talking to shops and others in the industry, not some rando dudes on a forum who say "I just started it up in the morning and the light came on".

I have sent a few emails regarding this theory to some BMW engineers in the engine design facility with no reply. I'm sure they do not want to address the issue nor want to get involved, or just maybe just laugh it off.

To address the others that say "I just started it up in the morning and the light came on" people. I have asked several questions to them publicly and privately and no one is willing to admit the car was properly warmed up to temp or even knew the status of the OIL temp or that they remember using kickdown. BTW the temp gage on your dash is the OIL temp not the coolant temp. When it stops moving your engine is to operating temp...such as when the engine allows you to check the oil level.

This is my theory, and sticking to it until another mechanical engineer chimes in with another theory and doesn't have a crackhub to sell, changes my mind.

- OEM crackhub.

[1slo_135i]

I have e85 custom tuned for 30k miles. All I had was the capture plate. Car ran great.

I decided to go with pure stage 2 plus. Doing so went ahead and followed recommendations with the crank hub. Cool. SSR hub is in, fired up the car and we get bad wobble of the harmonic balancer. The shop has done many of these jobs and supposedly I’m the only one with this issue. Car was taken apart again, checked over, put back together and still same issue.

We got a new SSR hub that came in and are almost done with this one thinking the original part was defective.

Moral of the story. I should have not touched that stupid hub and enjoyed the car.

[Jim45678]

Originally Posted by 1slo_135i

I have e85 custom tuned for 30k miles. All I had was the capture plate. Car ran great.

I decided to go with pure stage 2 plus. Doing so went ahead and followed recommendations with the crank hub. Cool. SSR hub is in, fired up the car and we get bad wobble of the harmonic balancer. The shop has done many of these jobs and supposedly I’m the only one with this issue. Car was taken apart again, checked over, put back together and still same issue.

We got a new SSR hub that came in and are almost done with this one thinking the original part was defective.

Moral of the story. I should have not touched that stupid hub and enjoyed the car.

so how the story ends? New hub solved the issue?
I'm having Vargas Spline Lock installed now and I hope everything will fine

[Adcampo]

I think I'm part of the SCH club. Yesterday I got two dreaded codes - 130E20 and 130F20 and the drivetrain malfunction error + CEL.

I Just heard from the dealer and they want $4250 to diagnose the issue. 20+ hours to tear down the top end.

My car is a US 2018 M3 Comp, 6 speed with 44k miles. Bootmod3 stage 1. I drive it aggressively, but always let it warm up. It could have been an over rev on my part.

I don't think I can swallow $4k+ in repairs, I'm going to try and work a deal on a new car. I can be 3rd in line for a G80 manual.