Lucky Trackday : M4 vs M2 vs Turbo S

[CAOZKAN]

I wanted to write-up my recent track-day experience since I got very lucky and by chance all of the above cars were lined up at the same day without the drivers knowing each other.
I'm driving a M4 with JB4 map1(91pump gas)+catless downpipes and Michelin PSC2 265/285 35 19s.

vs M2 : Given the M2 was all stock including the tires as well, I was really amazed by its performance. Its cornering definitely is better than M4, however on the straights even with the stock vs stock it's no match for M4. Even though I complain on the forum at lot about the CCBs, their performance on track is really really amazing. Because M2 was equipped with steels and my car is equipped with CCBs, the difference was really obvious after even one lap. Given the track is an ex formula1 track(IstanbulPark), it has really long straights and after these long straights there are heavy breaking corners.(230kmh to 60kmh). Therefore even after one lap the brakes are getting very hot.
Overall M2 could cope up for a lap then I passed it during the straight and started to build on the lead.

vs Turbo S : Unfortunately, Turbo S is no match for our cars. I was expecting to be passed by it but I wasn't expecting to be that different. Since it has a awd it kills the M4 at the corner exits, during the straights its performance is no match for M4. I kept it behind me for almost a lap but then when it passed me, I couldn't even come close to it.

I have noticed that, my times with Stock Map was almost a second quicker than my times with map1. It can be related to the weather etc. but I feel like for tracking map1 wasn't really making any difference. I feel like a custom tune which isn't for the peak number but for a better all the way torque/hp curve increase could make much better times due to traction.

Now my question is, how will we pass the Turbo S? I know it kind of sounds like a stupid question, but I really wonder if it is possible with the correct tunes.
My current plan is to have E30 + Bootmod3 + Pure Hi-Flows + GTS rear sway bars + GTS TCU tune. But even after all that I wonder if I will be even close to Turbo S. If so, maybe I shouldn't invest this much time/money/effort and just go ahead and buy a Turbo S since it's also a good daily driver.

[SYT_Shadow]

The way you pass a TurboS is by becoming a better driver than them.

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The way you pass a TurboS is by becoming a better driver than them.

I don't think it's realistic. I'm not saying I'm the best driver and I'm using the car to its best level but even if I did, I won't be able to pass an above average Turbo S driver.
Also one thing to add is that it's a trackday not a race event, therefore yes maybe I could keep him behind me by closing his passage lines but after all everybody is not racing with each other basically it's a time trial where nobody is intentionally blocking each other.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

I don't think it's realistic. I'm not saying I'm the best driver and I'm using the car to its best level but even if I did, I won't be able to pass an above average Turbo S driver.
Also one thing to add is that it's a trackday not a race event, therefore yes maybe I could keep him behind me by closing his passage lines but after all everybody is not racing with each other basically it's a time trial where nobody is intentionally blocking each other.

It is possible for sure. I've been in an E92 that blew past a Ferrari Challenge and 911 GT3RS without issues. Prior to the E92 passing, those were the fastest cars at the track day so it's not like they were putting around

Driver skill>>car

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It is possible for sure. I've been in an E92 that blew past a Ferrari Challenge and 911 GT3RS without issues. Prior to the E92 passing, those were the fastest cars at the track day so it's not like they were putting around

Driver skill>>car

I think two things to question here. One is what was the track? Because what you say may happen on an average speed track, but I'm tracking on a F1 track therefore it has very fast straights and corners, moreover it's a long track with possibility to make up for a driver's mistake. The second is let's say given the drivers are very much similar abilities, can we pass a Turbo S with the proper tuning without killing our car's daily driver ability?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

maybe I shouldn't invest this much time/money/effort and just go ahead and buy a Turbo S since it's also a good daily driver.

If money is not a barrier why not ?

Hard to really say anything against a 991 turbo S as a daily instead of an M4

You could try going the data logger route to quantify where you could pick up time, and there's also the suspension mods that you haven't explored yet

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

I think two things to question here. One is what was the track? Because what you say may happen on an average speed track, but I'm tracking on a F1 track therefore it has very fast straights and corners, moreover it's a long track with possibility to make up for a driver's mistake. The second is let's say given the drivers are very much similar abilities, can we pass a Turbo S with the proper tuning without killing our car's daily driver ability?

VIR and WGI. Both are 'big boy' tracks that favor HP

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

VIR and WGI. Both are 'big boy' tracks that favor HP

Checking the VIR results on pre/post 2014 , I see that turbo S made it 2.51 whereas the M4 did 3.00 and e92 m3 made it 3.05.
Anyways, going back to my initial subject and putting it correctly is there a possible way to tune our cars so that the same driver will make a better time than a turbo S , do you think?

[shaftwhy]

M4 GTS?

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

Checking the VIR results on pre/post 2014 , I see that turbo S made it 2.51 whereas the M4 did 3.00 and e92 m3 made it 3.05.
Anyways, going back to my initial subject and putting it correctly is there a possible way to tune our cars so that the same driver will make a better time than a turbo S , do you think?

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

M4 GTS?

I think you have a good point, but GTS is no better than turbo S on the Nurburgring, yet it's much closer than a stock M4.
I don't want to lose the rear seats so I think it should be okay to have a little bit more power then GTS with a good tuning and keep the 30kg weight saving on the car. I guess suspensions can be replicated. But I don't like the idea of having a wing on the car I wonder if it really adds too much to the handling and traction of the car.

[shaftwhy]

M4 GTS is 4+ seconds faster than 2010 Turbo S around the ring, so I guess it would be close to current gen Turbo S?

My understanding is on a fast trap, you pretty much for sure need the rear wing to go fast around the corners.

I doubt any individual can come up with a better solution than BMW to achieve 3 things:
1. Better track performance than M4 GTS
2. Reasonable reliability so you don't rebu.ild your engine every year or so
2. Not horrible for daily drive

You may excel on one aspect but lose the virtue on other aspects. Of course you can change tires, brake pads on top of M4 GTS to be even faster, but I think that's a given for all cars tracked.

All are guesses

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

I think you have a good point, but GTS is no better than turbo S on the Nurburgring, yet it's much closer than a stock M4.
I don't want to lose the rear seats so I think it should be okay to have a little bit more power then GTS with a good tuning and keep the 30kg weight saving on the car. I guess suspensions can be replicated. But I don't like the idea of having a wing on the car I wonder if it really adds too much to the handling and traction of the car.

[Drive4Fun]

Front sway bar, Coilovers with plenty of camber, and slicks would get you a lot further than 700hp. In my experience most Porsche turbo drivers aren't the best. Not all of them of course. If their lines are so-so the car pretty much does the rest. Gt3's and turbos can get on throttle really early and power out of the corners. If you can match their exit speeds or best them then you're the better driver. OP you have any videos?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

Checking the VIR results on pre/post 2014 , I see that turbo S made it 2.51 whereas the M4 did 3.00 and e92 m3 made it 3.05.
Anyways, going back to my initial subject and putting it correctly is there a possible way to tune our cars so that the same driver will make a better time than a turbo S , do you think?

Yes. And the P car has way, way more tire width. Start by suspension, slicks, driving mod and it's easy to beat P cars

At the track, skill>balls>>>>car

Once cars are reasonably fast, skill and balls play a huge, huge role in which car is faster around a track.

Mods also help. Wider tires, better suspension, etc etc etc. Starting by adding power to fix a speed problem is not the right way to go about this.

How many track days do you have under your belt?

[Celestion]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

Checking the VIR results on pre/post 2014 , I see that turbo S made it 2.51 whereas the M4 did 3.00 and e92 m3 made it 3.05.
Anyways, going back to my initial subject and putting it correctly is there a possible way to tune our cars so that the same driver will make a better time than a turbo S , do you think?

Yeah. This.

Beats the 911 GT3 around Hockenheimring.

[redpriest]

Enough mods and weight reduction and anything is impossible:

[SYT_Shadow]

the M4 race car on the main page thinks they can do 2:00 in VIR. Another forum member has done 2:03 with an E92 there.

If you go to any of those tracks, it is exceptionally unlikely you will see a single car going that fast regardless of the car's capabilities. They can drive a jet fighter but still will not do the course under 2:05

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Yes. And the P car has way, way more tire width. Start by suspension, slicks, driving mod and it's easy to beat P cars

At the track, skill>balls>>>>car

Once cars are reasonably fast, skill and balls play a huge, huge role in which car is faster around a track.

Mods also help. Wider tires, better suspension, etc etc etc. Starting by adding power to fix a speed problem is not the right way to go about this.

How many track days do you have under your belt?

To be honest not many, around 8-10 trackdays and one full day of training. However even if I wanted I wouldn't be able to train much because there 8-10 Trackdays per year here.
What I felt was that the porsche was pulling away at exits meanwhile I was putting the power higher gradually in order not to lose traction, and even when we were both putting 100% throttle, he was getting away. I agree with suspension and tires are being the first mods, but I don't know what I can go for instead of 265/285 psc2. Do you think would it be okay to put the rears to the front and buy 325 30 rears? I recently bought my rears that's why I want to somehow keep using them.

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by Drive4Fun

Front sway bar, Coilovers with plenty of camber, and slicks would get you a lot further than 700hp. In my experience most Porsche turbo drivers aren't the best. Not all of them of course. If their lines are so-so the car pretty much does the rest. Gt3's and turbos can get on throttle really early and power out of the corners. If you can match their exit speeds or best them then you're the better driver. OP you have any videos?

Sorry I don't have videos but GoPro is on the list of mods

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

To be honest not many, around 8-10 trackdays and one full day of training. However even if I wanted I wouldn't be able to train much because there 8-10 Trackdays per year here.
What I felt was that the porsche was pulling away at exits meanwhile I was putting the power higher gradually in order not to lose traction, and even when we were both putting 100% throttle, he was getting away. I agree with suspension and tires are being the first mods, but I don't know what I can go for instead of 265/285 psc2. Do you think would it be okay to put the rears to the front and buy 325 30 rears? I recently bought my rears that's why I want to somehow keep using them.

You need to buy wider wheels, like the EC7 10.5 front and 11 rear, then move to at least 275 front and 305/315/325 rear. If you do this with slick tires you'll be on another level

With 100 track days under your belt, you won't care if someone is driving the Millennium Falcon, you know that it takes serious commitment to enter the bus stop at 100mph and you will do that whereas the driver of the Millennium Falcon cannot

An F80 can easily take out a Turbo S, it's a matter of being a better driver than they are which is likely by the way. There seems to be an inverse relationship between the size of your bank account and driving skill.

The Lightning Lap and other standardized track times do not tell you much.
In a track day, the drivers are not standardized. This is by far the biggest variation.
Cars are not running OEM tires, brakes, suspension, seats, weight, etc etc etc.

[BMW M4 PWR]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Enough mods and weight reduction and anything is impossible:

It this a full lap the same way as tested for all the production car records!?

[YMB_M3]

Never really understood threads like this, driving skill supersedes cars and mods at the HPDE level 95% of the time. Obviously a turbo S will be faster than a m3/4 with equal drivers. If you're keeping up with a turbo S on the track then you are a better driver than he is. Invest in a faster car and it'll take less skill to turn quicker lap times if that's what you're looking for. Just remember that with a faster car the limits are much higher and a mistake at higher speeds is much more dangerous, so when/if you get close to exploiting the limits of a faster car its much more dangerous.

[Drive4Fun]

Don't fall for the idea that you need those mods to get faster tho. You could spend 10-15k on suspension, brakes, wheels and run the exact same times. How? You're using the same braking points. You have to learn the car all over again. You may be able to go 50-100 ft further until you have to brake and get on the gas that much earlier. You may have to change your entire line. Then add more horsepower and tack on a few more seconds. Braking points you've established are out the window and you look like Tokyo drift bc your car has 650ft lbs of tq. The better you get, the more pleasure you'll feel when you pass up cars that should be destroying you on the track. Ask an instructor for a ride along. If he thinks you're extracting 100%, then mod up. If not just polish those skills.