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      12-25-2013, 03:56 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patronus86 View Post
Haven't heard of N54 engines getting up past 500hp. Regardless of whether or not that is the case, I have to believe that at some point, engine displacement restricts how much hp you can achieve. I'm sure there is a more technical explanation, but I'm not an expert on that matter. Also, I really wasn't considering a meth upgrade, but I'm sure that factors in.
Look into Nissan GT-R Tuning and you will see that it's possible to extract stupid amounts of power from a 6 cyl turbo engine (divide GT-R power output by 3,8 and multiply by 3 to find out what a 3l theoretically should be able to do).
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      12-25-2013, 03:59 PM   #156
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guy is also has to do with the turbos and how much they can be bumped in psi
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      12-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #157
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You guys forget the Supra was also a 3.0L I6 engine and it's tuning capabilities are endless. ECU might be the restriction with the F80, powerwise. But displacement is not the problem here.
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      12-25-2013, 07:58 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitosz
You guys forget the Supra was also a 3.0L I6 engine and it's tuning capabilities are endless. ECU might be the restriction with the F80, powerwise. But displacement is not the problem here.
Indeed!!!!!
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      12-25-2013, 08:00 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitosz View Post
You guys forget the Supra was also a 3.0L I6 engine and it's tuning capabilities are endless. ECU might be the restriction with the F80, powerwise. But displacement is not the problem here.
any body who knows anything about supras. know they most owners replaced the stock twin turbos. engine displacement can work, the turbos are what we don't talk about enough
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      12-25-2013, 08:35 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitosz View Post
You guys forget the Supra was also a 3.0L I6 engine and it's tuning capabilities are endless. ECU might be the restriction with the F80, powerwise. But displacement is not the problem here.
any body who knows anything about supras. know they most owners replaced the stock twin turbos. engine displacement can work, the turbos are what we don't talk about enough
There are single turbo N54s pushing +700whp. I'm not worried about the S55.
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      12-25-2013, 09:21 PM   #161
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      12-25-2013, 09:45 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
I'm having troubling placing in my head what an M5 and an M3 actually are in BMW world. In some ways I have trouble differentiating whether this car is an M335i or a true M3. I know BMW doesn't fit a car with anything more than 1 wheel drive unless it is an M car, which is why I bought an S4 for $48k instead of a 335i. That, and my S4 doesn't overheat on a road course or have fuel pump reliability issues.

My primary concern right now is that not Dinan (nor anyone else) has released a tune for the M5. Either the ECU is too hard to crack, or M has done all of the tuning work and there's nothing appreciable left. The 4.4 twin turbo V8 is in both the 550i and the M5. Dinan tuned up the 550i very nicely, matching or exceeding the M5 output.

I'm concerned that we're all going to be buying a factory tuned 335i for $70,000. I'm concerned that there may be no tuning potential left in this engine because it's going to be burning hotter than a foundry oven. I'm concerned that it isn't even appropriate to run 500 HP through a RWD car with 255 tires and hollow output shafts (for weight savings). And lastly I'm concerned that there is probably $30,000 of profit in this car (loaded) so I'm not really sure what I'm buying over a 328i with halogens and incandescent bulbs.

Someone talk me out of this line of thinking.
Please stick with your S4.

And good luck tuning the ECU without getting flagged with the "TDI1" code.
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      12-25-2013, 10:23 PM   #163
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I laugh when I hear folks who think the M3 is all about horsepower. It's a specially packaged set of performance enhancements that add up to much more than the sum of the parts. No one else (except maybe Cadillac) has quite figured out how to do that for a car with four seats as well as BMW does.
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      12-25-2013, 10:30 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
I'm having troubling placing in my head what an M5 and an M3 actually are in BMW world. In some ways I have trouble differentiating whether this car is an M335i or a true M3. I know BMW doesn't fit a car with anything more than 1 wheel drive unless it is an M car, which is why I bought an S4 for $48k instead of a 335i. That, and my S4 doesn't overheat on a road course or have fuel pump reliability issues.

My primary concern right now is that not Dinan (nor anyone else) has released a tune for the M5. Either the ECU is too hard to crack, or M has done all of the tuning work and there's nothing appreciable left. The 4.4 twin turbo V8 is in both the 550i and the M5. Dinan tuned up the 550i very nicely, matching or exceeding the M5 output.

I'm concerned that we're all going to be buying a factory tuned 335i for $70,000. I'm concerned that there may be no tuning potential left in this engine because it's going to be burning hotter than a foundry oven. I'm concerned that it isn't even appropriate to run 500 HP through a RWD car with 255 tires and hollow output shafts (for weight savings). And lastly I'm concerned that there is probably $30,000 of profit in this car (loaded) so I'm not really sure what I'm buying over a 328i with halogens and incandescent bulbs.

Someone talk me out of this line of thinking.
OP, I was fortunate enough to own a B8 S4 shown in my signature that was parked next to my tuned E92 M3. Naturally, there should be not debate that the E92 M3 is/was a better car than the S4. My S4 was faster than my M3 at realistic speed, but it still wasn't a better car. The experience with BMW was also so much better. I picked up my car from the Performance delivery center, which was awesome. The dealerships didn't bust my balls about having modifications unlike Audi that has gone out of their way to void my warranty. BMW forums and community are much better. I got lured into the style/look of Audi but won't be going back. In my opinion, Audi is attempting to rid themselves of the enthusiast in favor of the overpaid/undereducated Mercedes/Lexus customer. BMW is a true enthusiast brand. I think an M4 is going to be right up your ally with or without an aftermarket tune. The power delivery is probably going to be much like that of a tuned B8 S4 with more torque. The handling and feel of the car is worlds better. I'm confident that once you are able to spend extended seat time in an M4 you'll like. Now the E92 M3 owner transitioning to turbo six may be a different transition. I think you need to shift your thinking a bit. The S4 is a pretty crappy car without a 80hp increase from a tune. The M4 will be a great car right out of the box.


By the way, an M3/M4 is a factory modified 335i/435i. I'll be ordering an F80 M3 as soon as my S4 lease is up in Feb '15. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Last edited by Money2536; 12-25-2013 at 10:38 PM..
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      12-25-2013, 10:42 PM   #165
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I can totally see where the OP is coming from. Instead of getting a true bespoke engine, you'd end up getting an tuned N55 engine and some nice carbon fiber parts that save the weight of a typical passenger, which is nice. BUT is it worth the extra money?? The suspension will also be better tuned and aluminum, but can you just bolt on the //M suspension arms like on the E9x plateform? If that's possible, you can already get around 400wHP out of the N55, so is it really worth the extra $$$.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      12-25-2013, 11:01 PM   #166
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I hope tuners crack the ECU quickly. It's been 2 years and there's still not a real tune for the S63tu (M5/M6).

1 leaked BMW press tune and a handful of piggybacks.
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      12-25-2013, 11:11 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus
I can totally see where the OP is coming from. Instead of getting a true bespoke engine, you'd end up getting an tuned N55 engine and some nice carbon fiber parts that save the weight of a typical passenger, which is nice. BUT is it worth the extra money?? The suspension will also be better tuned and aluminum, but can you just bolt on the //M suspension arms like on the E9x plateform? If that's possible, you can already get around 400wHP out of the N55, so is it really worth the extra $$$.
Aus

This is not a tuned N55. While I see where you are comparing the similarities between both engines, the tuning, fueling, cooling, turbos, transmission, etc are all different. This will be a 390whp-420whp stock M3. If you prefer a 335 FBO over a stock M3 that makes the same power then that is up to each individual customer, but the braking, handling, interior, body, and overall driving dynamics will never be compared to a 335.

I heard the same comments coming from E90 335 owners saying a FBO is faster than an E90 M3. True, but is still not an M3.

I have owned both a 335 and an E92 M3 and there is no comparison. I have also driven a FBO 335 and it's a lot of fun to drive. Cannot imagine that power on a factory package, with 200lbs less, matched to a DCT transmission and paired with a nice widebody and carbon brakes.

We keep underestimating the new M3.
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      12-25-2013, 11:51 PM   #168
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^^^

Finally some reason in this ridiculous thread. Idk how many times people say "tuned n55". The n55 is different from the s55 in many many many ways. Not to mention one turbo vs 2. Liquid to air vs air to air. Different sized turbos.

People should take the time to read more about the car instead of making ill informed comments and assumptions. Hell, the sticky at the top of this forum has all the technical info you could need on the s55 and new m3
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      12-26-2013, 02:06 AM   #169
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Why do fanboys think just because someone isn't so impressed with their precious car, it MUST BE because they just don't know anything about the car???

The block is the same. It has 2 turbo's like the N54 in my wife's 335. It has direct injection like my wife's 335 (lets HOPE they fixed the valve deposit issue). It has valvtronic like the N55. It has an air to water intercoller that's UGLY AS SH@T on top of the engine, which isn't necessarily "better" than an air to air. //M claims it'll have better cooling so it can be tracked, but they said the same of the S63tu and people still to limp modes on the track. At least it has a respectable red line, but I'm wondering how it'll pull past 7,000 RPM.

I'm just not sure it's worth the extra $20,000 TO ME. I'm just not THAT impressed.Now if they fix the crappy electric steerring, I'll be all for that because the current cars with it SUCK BALLZ. Prosche gets about 175 lbs off of a Cayman and 911 for the performance variants, as does Ferrari and that's without a CF drive shaft or trunk, so again not THAT impressed with the weight loss, but I'll take it. If the lease numbers are good at LCi, I'll probably still get once, but not sure I'll be all that excited about it. I'll also be looking at the M2 if it every comes out along with the M6 GC. If you fanboys haven't noticed, the M5 has been getting it's ASS KICKED by EVERY OTHER CAR IN IT'S CATEGORY.

Just to clarify, I've owned TWO E9x M3's, E36 M3, X5 CSi and 335 (wife's car) with light tuning. Not NOT an anti-BMW or //M dude. I have a lifetime membership to the CCA as well. I'm about as big a fanboy as BMW could hope for, but I'm also not blind to the money grab they've been doing the last few years at the expense of what made me a BMW fan.

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Last edited by aus; 12-26-2013 at 02:13 AM..
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      12-26-2013, 02:50 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus
Why do fanboys think just because someone isn't so impressed with their precious car, it MUST BE because they just don't know anything about the car???

The block is the same. It has 2 turbo's like the N54 in my wife's 335. It has direct injection like my wife's 335 (lets HOPE they fixed the valve deposit issue). It has valvtronic like the N55. It has an air to water intercoller that's UGLY AS SH@T on top of the engine, which isn't necessarily "better" than an air to air. //M claims it'll have better cooling so it can be tracked, but they said the same of the S63tu and people still to limp modes on the track. At least it has a respectable red line, but I'm wondering how it'll pull past 7,000 RPM.

I'm just not sure it's worth the extra $20,000 TO ME. I'm just not THAT impressed.Now if they fix the crappy electric steerring, I'll be all for that because the current cars with it SUCK BALLZ. Prosche gets about 175 lbs off of a Cayman and 911 for the performance variants, as does Ferrari and that's without a CF drive shaft or trunk, so again not THAT impressed with the weight loss, but I'll take it. If the lease numbers are good at LCi, I'll probably still get once, but not sure I'll be all that excited about it. I'll also be looking at the M2 if it every comes out along with the M6 GC. If you fanboys haven't noticed, the M5 has been getting it's ASS KICKED by EVERY OTHER CAR IN IT'S CATEGORY.

Just to clarify, I've owned TWO E9x M3's, E36 M3, X5 CSi and 335 (wife's car) with light tuning. Not NOT an anti-BMW or //M dude. I have a lifetime membership to the CCA as well. I'm about as big a fanboy as BMW could hope for, but I'm also not blind to the money grab they've been doing the last few years at the expense of what made me a BMW fan.

.
While I don't necessarily agree with all of your points, I do agree that people do assume too much around here.
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      12-26-2013, 04:53 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Why do fanboys think just because someone isn't so impressed with their precious car, it MUST BE because they just don't know anything about the car???

The block is the same. It has 2 turbo's like the N54 in my wife's 335. It has direct injection like my wife's 335 (lets HOPE they fixed the valve deposit issue). It has valvtronic like the N55. It has an air to water intercoller that's UGLY AS SH@T on top of the engine, which isn't necessarily "better" than an air to air. //M claims it'll have better cooling so it can be tracked, but they said the same of the S63tu and people still to limp modes on the track. At least it has a respectable red line, but I'm wondering how it'll pull past 7,000 RPM.

I'm just not sure it's worth the extra $20,000 TO ME. I'm just not THAT impressed.Now if they fix the crappy electric steerring, I'll be all for that because the current cars with it SUCK BALLZ. Prosche gets about 175 lbs off of a Cayman and 911 for the performance variants, as does Ferrari and that's without a CF drive shaft or trunk, so again not THAT impressed with the weight loss, but I'll take it. If the lease numbers are good at LCi, I'll probably still get once, but not sure I'll be all that excited about it. I'll also be looking at the M2 if it every comes out along with the M6 GC. If you fanboys haven't noticed, the M5 has been getting it's ASS KICKED by EVERY OTHER CAR IN IT'S CATEGORY.

Just to clarify, I've owned TWO E9x M3's, E36 M3, X5 CSi and 335 (wife's car) with light tuning. Not NOT an anti-BMW or //M dude. I have a lifetime membership to the CCA as well. I'm about as big a fanboy as BMW could hope for, but I'm also not blind to the money grab they've been doing the last few years at the expense of what made me a BMW fan.

.
Try reading up on the engine history of previous M engines. If the only engines worthy of the M name is the S65/85, then yes the S55 is nothing special... Just like all of the I6 M engines before (with the exception of M88/S38)!

My N53b30 engine also shares many components such as valves, cams and pistons etc with a M engine. Just like ANY internal combustion engine!!!

A few corrections:

-Block is NOT the same as N55 (just like previous I6 M engines it's based on a production block, but is a different block with lower weight and no separate liners)
-Air to water (or indirect) intercoolers are much better both in effociency of cooling and to manage heat soak. Not to mention the short path there is from turbo to intake side on the S55 setup.
-F10 M5 serve as Ring taxis and seem to do ok with track duty (but generally speaking the F10 is too heavy)
-Even though the F10 has lost more comparisons than many of it's predecessors it has won quite a few as well. But the world is changing and when German magazines place the F10 second or lower because it lacks AWD, then maybe that shows that there either is to much power now or that next gen M5 will be AWD...

But, please do what pleases you! Buy an 737 or buy an F35, both can fly and do many of the same things. And I'm sure that if you modify the 737 it will perform close to a F35 in some disiplines JK
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      12-26-2013, 05:11 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Try reading up on the engine history of previous M engines. If the only engines worthy of the M name is the S65/85, then yes the S55 is nothing special... Just like all of the I6 M engines before (with the exception of M88/S38)!

My N53b30 engine also shares many components such as valves, cams and pistons etc with a M engine. Just like ANY internal combustion engine!!!

A few corrections:

-Block is NOT the same as N55 (just like previous I6 M engines it's based on a production block, but is a different block with lower weight and no separate liners)
-Air to water (or indirect) intercoolers are much better both in effociency of cooling and to manage heat soak. Not to mention the short path there is from turbo to intake side on the S55 setup.
-F10 M5 serve as Ring taxis and seem to do ok with track duty (but generally speaking the F10 is too heavy)
-Even though the F10 has lost more comparisons than many of it's predecessors it has won quite a few as well. But the world is changing and when German magazines place the F10 second or lower because it lacks AWD, then maybe that shows that there either is to much power now or that next gen M5 will be AWD...

But, please do what pleases you! Buy an 737 or buy an F35, both can fly and do many of the same things. And I'm sure that if you modify the 737 it will perform close to a F35 in some disiplines JK
As I said sometimes before ... wait until the N55-sucessor B58 comes in the BMW AGs future .35(?) and .40i Models and see how unique the S55 really was ... my guess is that in reality the S55 is simply an beefed up top version of the comming B58 with some (few?) special parts !?
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      12-26-2013, 06:15 AM   #173
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Modded n54/55 cars are fun and all, but I'd rather be in a factory car with an estimated 390whp (per an earlier post) on pump gas with beefed up cooling, body work, suspension, etc, all with a factory warranty.

AFAIK the ZF tranny in the F3x cars isn't rated to handle much more than the factory N55 torque output per ZF, and to achieve an appreciable amount of power (IMHO of course) requires e85 (availability) and TBE (increased cabin noise), which could alter the definition of a daily driver for some (me included). I personally wouldn't run meth so that's out.

Even if I could make similar power to the new F8x M cars I'd be in fear of the transmission grenading/slipping (despite the fact that none has occurred yet, at least to our knowledge) as well as other issues that could potentially arise from all the mods, such as cooling. Here in CA I would need to remove the DP each time I need the car smogged, not to mention each time I take the car into service I'd basically remove everything out of paranoia. If I were running catless I'd be crapping bricks each time I'm stopped at a light with a cop due to the lovely fume. Having owned several modified cars, esp. being in CA, it's not as simple as making the WHP; there is a lot more involved.

In short, just because you can modify car A to match car B it does not make the two equal. The F8x M cars will destroy a modded N55 car, with a factory warranty. They're one step above the food chain vs. the F3x cars, just as the E9x M was to the E9x N54/55 cars (flame suit on? perhaps not on this part of the forum). Power is only a tiny part of the entire picture, and even there the M cars prevail with much better reliability (especially on the track) and a factory warranty.
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      12-26-2013, 07:56 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
I'm concerned that we're all going to be buying a factory tuned 335i for $70,000. I'm concerned that there may be no tuning potential left in this engine because it's going to be burning hotter than a foundry oven. I'm concerned that it isn't even appropriate to run 500 HP through a RWD car with 255 tires and hollow output shafts (for weight savings). And lastly I'm concerned that there is probably $30,000 of profit in this car (loaded) so I'm not really sure what I'm buying over a 328i with halogens and incandescent bulbs.
I'm concerned that this is not the car for you...Stay with S4 and all your concerns will be eliminated.
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      12-26-2013, 07:56 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
As I said sometimes before ... wait until the N55-sucessor B58 comes in the BMW AGs future .35(?) and .40i Models and see how unique the S55 really was ... my guess is that in reality the S55 is simply an beefed up top version of the comming B58 with some (few?) special parts !?
The N55/S55 has a 89,6mm stroke and 84mm bore. The modular engines has a 94,6mm stroke and 82mm bore.

The front end of the modular engine doesn't look like the S55 either:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/first-l...engine-family/


Just sayin
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      12-26-2013, 09:54 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Why do fanboys think just because someone isn't so impressed with their precious car, it MUST BE because they just don't know anything about the car???

The block is the same. It has 2 turbo's like the N54 in my wife's 335. It has direct injection like my wife's 335 (lets HOPE they fixed the valve deposit issue). It has valvtronic like the N55. It has an air to water intercoller that's UGLY AS SH@T on top of the engine, which isn't necessarily "better" than an air to air. //M claims it'll have better cooling so it can be tracked, but they said the same of the S63tu and people still to limp modes on the track. At least it has a respectable red line, but I'm wondering how it'll pull past 7,000 RPM.

I'm just not sure it's worth the extra $20,000 TO ME. I'm just not THAT impressed.Now if they fix the crappy electric steerring, I'll be all for that because the current cars with it SUCK BALLZ. Prosche gets about 175 lbs off of a Cayman and 911 for the performance variants, as does Ferrari and that's without a CF drive shaft or trunk, so again not THAT impressed with the weight loss, but I'll take it. If the lease numbers are good at LCi, I'll probably still get once, but not sure I'll be all that excited about it. I'll also be looking at the M2 if it every comes out along with the M6 GC. If you fanboys haven't noticed, the M5 has been getting it's ASS KICKED by EVERY OTHER CAR IN IT'S CATEGORY.

Just to clarify, I've owned TWO E9x M3's, E36 M3, X5 CSi and 335 (wife's car) with light tuning. Not NOT an anti-BMW or //M dude. I have a lifetime membership to the CCA as well. I'm about as big a fanboy as BMW could hope for, but I'm also not blind to the money grab they've been doing the last few years at the expense of what made me a BMW fan.

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Most of that is off topic to what was said. The comment was "the s55 is just a tuned n55". Fact is it's not at all. Whether or not you like turbos is irrelevant to this discussion.

The m5 isn't the same as it's 1000 lbs heavier and doesn't have the same amount of track specific cooling. Ie multiple radiators, oil coolers and heat exchangers.

Boss330 does a nice job of summarizing the extensive differences between the n55 /s55

Hardware differences In summary

-larger turbos
-lclosed deck design
-robust cooling with 7 total radiators / oil coolers / heat exchangers
-liquid to air cooling
-different internals
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Last edited by Black Gold; 12-26-2013 at 10:03 AM..
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