proTUNING Freaks
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-06-2019, 11:24 AM   #45
Bryanh24
Private
Bryanh24's Avatar
5
Rep
52
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: FL

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennettksu View Post
I just left, it was so much to keep up with lol. Good guys in there.
Yeah it's a lot LOL! Pretty much in there just in case I have more questions about the hub.
__________________
2018 MGM Comp. M3
SSR Intakes / BM3
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2019, 01:11 PM   #46
Ed_rx7
Second Lieutenant
United Kingdom
69
Rep
285
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 CP
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Muscle View Post
The Maximum PSI hub looks solid on sprocket design and locking the timing gear to the hub. There is a slight opportunity to reduce the resistance to cracking due to cyclical fatigue loading in the hub to sprocket interlocks (dogs), but I don't suspect it will ever crack if proper base metal was selected. It looks like there is some surface prep to harden the teeth, but I can't tell what. I suspect it is something simple like shot peening, but with the right base metal, that could be perfectly fine for sprockets. I'd like to see a different locking method to the crank as dowel pins are typically a weaker stainless steel and don't have large shear values. Being that the distance from the center of the crank is small, they won't take a lot of torque to shear off. I don't know how much they need to hold, so they might be 100% perfect for the life of the engine. Vibration torque is something that is near impossible to measure, so I error on the side of more.

As for the Gintani, the one piece is cool, but not needed and adds considerable costs. It looks like they compromised on sprocket shape to allow machining to be done as one piece. Based on the black color, I'm guessing they are doing a nitride salt bath coating (also called a QPQ). This help get some extra hardness in the sprockets for wear, but the process only adds a hardness to a depth of ~.001". For comparison, the stock sprockets are induction hardened. I haven't cut them open to inspect the case hardening depth, but I suspect it is ~.005"+. I like the concept of how they are locking the hub into the crank, but I'd like to see a lock on on each side (0* and 180*). I like this method because you should be able to leave the radiator on the car during the swap thus saving money on labor, but I haven't seen their instructions. It also allows for a higher yield steel to be used to increase the shear value.

On the Vargas hub, the concept is interesting, but I've seen lots of interference fits like this fail on other applications with cyclical loading. The splines are inside the crank which is the area with the smallest radius, thus their load will be greater that if placed on the OD of the crank (I understand this isn't realistic due to the shape of the crank nose). Their use of a 17-4 precipitate hardened stainless steel throws me for a loop, but I have to assume they are using it for the toughness to resist cracking in the high stress geometry of the spline lock area. 17-4 PH SS is not terribly hard and does not wear well when compared to a heat treated medium carbon steel. I work with a lot of industrial applications that have moving parts and the 17-4 is always the first to wear. We have tried different heat treatments all the way down to H900 as well as some custom treatments and the 17-4 always wears before standard carbon steels. I think over time, the chain will wear down the sprocket (probably never become catastrophic). If someone has this and does oil analysis, it would be interesting to see if it shows any increased nickel from the 17-4 PH to confirm to deny this. It might be 100% fine, but I'd have to pass due to both the 17-4 PH base metal and the spline lock method.

The Insane Performance hub has sub par sprocket geometry. It doesn't have any surface hardening for the sprocket. It uses an odd grade of Russian steel (odd based on what we use in the US) from what they have released. As best I can tell, it correlates to a 5140 steel. Again, with what we have access to in the US, it just seems odd.

These are just my engineering opinions combined with 25+ years of turning wrenches and 15 years working in an industry that sees a lot of bad designs and failures. Do your own homework and make the decision you feel good with. To your original question, I were to buy one today, I'd wait until Maximum PSI had more back in stock. If I were wanting a no compromise solution, I'd wait as I'm sure there will be more on the market soon.

Whatís your view on cryogenically treating metals?
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2019, 02:18 PM   #47
behindthen0thing
Second Lieutenant
behindthen0thing's Avatar
101
Rep
200
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_rx7 View Post
Whatís your view on cryogenically treating metals?
I think that means they got cold after they got hot, then now they are normal temperature
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2019, 09:29 PM   #48
M3 Muscle
New Member
M3 Muscle's Avatar
14
Rep
5
Posts

Drives: '14 X5, '98 Turbo M3, & '17 M3
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
Thank you for a very informative post, the only issue I see if you are using outdated information. The first batch of V1's were hardened 17-4SS, after that all hubs we have sold and shipped for over a year manufactured from 440C tool Steel with a Rockwell rating of HRC60 for the ultimate in durability, and toughness.

Solid upgrade in material choice. Good to know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
I mean that shaft coming out of our transmissions that is transferring 100% of the TQ/Power to the rear wheels, did they pin it, or is it relying on splines? We both know the answer to this...
Apples to oranges. The splines are machined on both ends of transmission shafts, not sharpened splines friction pressed in against a smooth bore. It very well may get the job done effectively, but it isn't the same system you are describing.
Appreciate 2
      11-06-2019, 10:11 PM   #49
Danlnyc88
Private
40
Rep
58
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Orange County

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennettksu View Post
I think I know where you got yours from

Are you in the s55 WhatsApp chat?
you guys have a secret s55 whatsapp club??
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 07:15 AM   #50
Ed_rx7
Second Lieutenant
United Kingdom
69
Rep
285
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 CP
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthen0thing View Post
I think that means they got cold after they got hot, then now they are normal temperature
DCT=Deep Cryogenic Treatment
The material is placed in a controlled environment and is taken down to extreme temperatures and the brought back to ambient temperatures slowly.

Due to this treatment metals have increased in strength up to 60 % in some cases Iíve read.

My mate had his brake rotors done and they lasted twice as long as they normally would . He also gets his gearbox internals and crankshafts done with this method.... he owns several race cars. He does this in addition to any heat treated metals as it alters the molecular structure and further increases strength apparently.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 09:11 AM   #51
nbennettksu
Colonel
863
Rep
2,669
Posts

Drives: DV F80
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fort Lauderdale

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danlnyc88 View Post
you guys have a secret s55 whatsapp club??
lol, not secret, just in South Florida
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
Caddy ATS . . . finally, a decent rental car option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kchu221 View Post
the wheels make me mad...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
It's one thing for some buffoon to put an M badge on something that doesn't deserve it...it's another for a multi-billion dollar corporation to do the exact same thing and keep a straight face.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2019, 11:36 AM   #52
Bryanh24
Private
Bryanh24's Avatar
5
Rep
52
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: FL

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danlnyc88 View Post
you guys have a secret s55 whatsapp club??
Idk why but I thought this was hilarious LMAO
__________________
2018 MGM Comp. M3
SSR Intakes / BM3
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2019, 04:07 PM   #53
behindthen0thing
Second Lieutenant
behindthen0thing's Avatar
101
Rep
200
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_rx7 View Post
DCT=Deep Cryogenic Treatment
The material is placed in a controlled environment and is taken down to extreme temperatures and the brought back to ambient temperatures slowly.

Due to this treatment metals have increased in strength up to 60 % in some cases Iíve read.

My mate had his brake rotors done and they lasted twice as long as they normally would . He also gets his gearbox internals and crankshafts done with this method.... he owns several race cars. He does this in addition to any heat treated metals as it alters the molecular structure and further increases strength apparently.
Sounds great!
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2019, 06:19 PM   #54
Bryanh24
Private
Bryanh24's Avatar
5
Rep
52
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: FL

iTrader: (1)

The Insane Hub just came in the mail today! Very fast shipping. Now to get it installed..
__________________
2018 MGM Comp. M3
SSR Intakes / BM3
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2019, 08:24 PM   #55
jpy1980
Captain
145
Rep
623
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW M3 Mineral White
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanh24 View Post
The Insane Hub just came in the mail today! Very fast shipping. Now to get it installed..
Pictures!
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2019, 08:37 PM   #56
jpy1980
Captain
145
Rep
623
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW M3 Mineral White
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
The difference being the transmission shaft has large receiver grooves machined into the hub for a perfect fit. The splines are not pressed in.
This actually had me thinking a lot. So when you install the vargas solution, does it make opposing receiving grooves when you press it in or is it just against the smooth shaft? I did google splines and the first quote i saw was:

ď Splines are ridges or teeth[1][2][3] on a drive shaft that mesh with grooves in a mating piece and transfer torque to it, maintaining the angular correspondence between them.

For instance, a gear mounted on a shaft might use a male spline on the shaft that matches the female spline on the gear. Ē

How is the VTT solution mated to the crank shaft? Does the male VTT crank hub being pressed inside the shaft cause it to make a female receiving splines. I hope that makes sense. If so, does that Somehow weaken the input shaft?

If not, then This solution with the CBC really does sound like it would take care of the issue.
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2019, 08:57 PM   #57
jpy1980
Captain
145
Rep
623
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW M3 Mineral White
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (2)

I actually found the answer to my question. Looks like it does and looks beefy!

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=30
Appreciate 0
      11-08-2019, 09:25 PM   #58
Kev608
Second Lieutenant
Kev608's Avatar
United_States
71
Rep
220
Posts

Drives: M4 Competition
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Madison, WI

iTrader: (0)

The VTT hub will dig channels into the crankshaft. All of the solutions either require you to modify the crankshaft, or modify it themselves when installed. The problem with this is, if the solution you chose is proven to fail and you want to remove/replace it with something better, you may now have to replace the crankshaft as well. I would honestly feel much better about the VTT solution if there were mated splines machined into the crankshaft. The possibility of failure would essentially be eliminated, as the amount of torque on the hub would have to be quite high to defeat the mated splines.
Appreciate 0
      11-09-2019, 01:41 AM   #59
jpy1980
Captain
145
Rep
623
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW M3 Mineral White
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev608 View Post
The VTT hub will dig channels into the crankshaft. All of the solutions either require you to modify the crankshaft, or modify it themselves when installed. The problem with this is, if the solution you chose is proven to fail and you want to remove/replace it with something better, you may now have to replace the crankshaft as well. I would honestly feel much better about the VTT solution if there were mated splines machined into the crankshaft. The possibility of failure would essentially be eliminated, as the amount of torque on the hub would have to be quite high to defeat the mated splines.
But if it digs into the crankshaft itself, isn't that the same thing as if they were machined into it?
Appreciate 0
      11-09-2019, 08:06 AM   #60
Kev608
Second Lieutenant
Kev608's Avatar
United_States
71
Rep
220
Posts

Drives: M4 Competition
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Madison, WI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpy1980 View Post
But if it digs into the crankshaft itself, isn't that the same thing as if they were machined into it?
The material isn't being removed, it is being displaced. A lot, perhaps even most of it, piles up at the end of the hub. The splines are created to facilitate this, rather than being made to maximize grip. By machining mated splines you could easily double the staying power and put less stress on the crankshaft.
Appreciate 0
      11-09-2019, 08:17 AM   #61
ellipsis212
Major
ellipsis212's Avatar
365
Rep
1,451
Posts

Drives: 2017 M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: RVA

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Muscle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanh24 View Post
So what is the best solution for the crank hub in your opinion?
These are just my engineering opinions combined with 25+ years of turning wrenches and 15 years working in an industry that sees a lot of bad designs and failures.
You're obviously not an engineer if you recognize the difference between an opinion and a fact 😂

Plus too few spelling errors
Appreciate 1
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:25 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST