350$-500$- the True cost of Carbon Ceramic CCBs..

[Musashi]

For those that do not know me, I love tech and cars, and am a big supporter of accessible, mass market technological development and access. Over the years, have developed a higher than average knowledge about CCBs, and am very very happy to have a next gen 3D needle strand woven continuous CCB set on my car:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1493323

Earlier today, however, found out something that people should know, or maybe already know. The info below comes from a most reliable, credible source working in the aerospace and automotive CCB manufacturing sector. I cannot verify it, and am forwarding it as I was told.

According to the source, a certain CCB maker, let’s call them Prempo, charges per rotor as a function of volume. Its biggest client is a company that I will nickname Borshce. Between 10,000 and 100,000 rotor units, Prempo charges 350$ USD per chopped fiber CCB rotor. Including hat assembly, micrometer and surface QC, the final cost is some 500-750$ USD.

I asked “Surely, you are missing a 0, right? 3500 not 350?” “No, 350$” that is the magic number to become a Tier 1 supplier to someone like Borshce.” I asked, “then why 4,000$ per front rotor?” The reply was that it was simply markup. Profit. Exclusivity.

There is more. Apparently, brake parts are a major source of revenue for the premium market, people will rarely-or never- put 80$ rotors on a 50,000$ car. This market is worth over a billion(s) USD a year. Once upon a time, when they were making 1,000 CCBs a year, indeed the production costs were high. 1970s, 1980s, 1990s. But, in 2019, with hundreds of thousands made by many makers, 7-10 day average manufacturing time, the cost of the classic chopped CCBs is indeed down by factor of 10-20. But since it is an image and a monopoly (slowly eroding though), the auto manufacturers could charge as much as they felt for their aftermarket needs. Yes, a Ferrari CCB is more customized than a Borshce CCB- but the point is that making these molds in mass quantities costs, well, a few hours worth of labour. In fact, carbon bikes are more labour intensive as, to make that 2000 gram carbon frame, multiple layers need to be carefully stranded. But not chopped CCBs, which are now a largely automated process.

Nor are 6 pistons needed to slow-down cars equipped with CCBs, nor do they need to be as big as they are. Yes, if going for the Nurburgring Record or LeMans 370-100 kms deceleration in 250m, 6 pistons matter somewhat. Supercars today are exceptionally light anyway, so the Mass is low. In my tests, 4 pistons with the 3D Needle Continuous CCBs slowed down a 3700lbs above all expectations (actually, feels like 6pistons and quarter pedal is all that is needed now on DD, wet, -20C, 50C) and I doubt ever exceeding 700deg Centigrade. The hotter they get THE BETTER AND MORE BARBARIC THE DECELERATION.

Why large CCB set? The look "cool" with 20-21" rims, filling the void, and also condemn the car owner to replace them with CCBs in that size only. There is an argument to be made about the cooling benefits for a 6 piston caliper, its sheer mass contributing to remove heat from the pads and rotors. Bugatti's 3D Titanium printed 6 piston caliper are cool, but they are meant to optimize cooling from 1700C to 400C, which makes no sense outside deliberate destructive testing, or repeat 420-100 km/hr braking, which can only be done in 2-3 places on the planet (VW test track in Germany, Arizona, not even LeMans) offering long straights..

If all premium makers sold 500-1000$ CCBs on their cars, they would sell. Indeed, owners would never replace them while owning the vehicle. with no dust, service needs plummet even for the pads, until replacement. This this would undercut completely the profitable steel rotor service and supply chain, which is more profitable by volume and frequency. Some people lose a rotor set every 2 winters, a track day etc. Premium owners go back to the service center and pay a premium cost for GT steel rotors. Some AMG owners claim 4,000$/40,000kms front service replacement cost for their S-Class or GLC, the brake setup and sensors wearing the Gts aggressively.

It is also true that, if the truth was to come out, Borshce would never have the volume to meet large scale demand, nor would all CCB makers combined- not initially. But the other 12 makers would be filling demand very fast, they could produce 1 million CCB rotors annually. Presently, chopped CCBs are the “cheap” ceramic, ineffective to manufacture profitably due to the low sale cost (!!!). Some of its drawbacks being known (cold temperature performance, squealing). 3D needle continuous CCBs are labour intensive, in terms of preparation and transition from preform to carbon ceramic final shape, but only 4 companies own the patents to it and they are fighting uphill.

Essentially, it is an artificially maintained price, in similar fashion with a price fixing cartel. Some low volume CCB makers would never survive if the average cost dropped from 4000 USD to 500 USD.. And then again, if convincing 100,000 to 200,000 people annually to buy 400,000 CCBs at 12,000$ per set, why not?? There is a sucker born every minute.

Personally, need more time to digest that. I knew that the sensor X or camera processor Z may cost 70$ while being replaced for clients at 500$ cost.. but 800% markup to keep industry profit margins? I guess capitalism is capitalism…

I am curious what you, esteemed car enthusiasts, think about this..

[9M71]

This is interesting... guess CMW has to make their margins somehow.

[aBMWfan]

How do I get a set of these made for Brembo GT Kit?

[Kev608]

Group buy? lol

[knightarmor]

I"m still trying to figure out how McDonalds could sell a cheeseburger for 0.29 cents on Tuesdays! Or was it Thursdays??

[ntg44]

Originally Posted by knightarmor

I"m still trying to figure out how McDonalds could sell a cheeseburger for 0.29 cents on Tuesdays! Or was it Thursdays??

Well that's simple. They know most people will grab a large soda with the burger for $1.29 which only costs them 12 cents, so it's statistically beneficial to run the campaign for cheap burgers so they sell more soda.

You wanna middle finger the man? Get 4 burgers with tap water. Muahaha.

[allinon72]

A lot of stuff on higher end cars have this kind of markup. Racing stripes on the new GT500 are 10k, for example.

It exists because the market bares it. Exclusivity means potential buyers are willing to pay more for it. Carbon ceramics are still low volume of production in comparison to the millions of iron rotors sold. And carbon ceramics are not suitable for mass market either, at least not in current form.

[325iExecutive]

Originally Posted by ntgarage44

Well that's simple. They know most people will grab a large soda with the burger for $1.29 which only costs them 12 cents, so it's statistically beneficial to run the campaign for cheap burgers so they sell more soda.

You wanna middle finger the man? Get 4 burgers with tap water. Muahaha.

Hahaha

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by aBMWfan

How do I get a set of these made for Brembo GT Kit?

In my case I sent the manufacturer the Brembo pdf spec for the 3 Series, available at Brembo's site. My 370x30 mm were the first 3D Needle CCBs made for a 3series. For other cars, e.g. M3 M4 etc the specs are well known. By going straight to the manufacturer you can skip the US 200-300% markup as sold by very well know US manufacturers. It really is bespoken as a process, you could request .5mm thicker rotor, shims or no shims on pads etc. PM me if you want more information.

In a not too distant future I could order <1000$ any size chopped CCBs, but they have minor drawbacks, and a shorter lifespan than 3D Carbon /Silica Carbide ones. Why have 200,000-250,000 kms when I can get 300,000-400,000? lol For our next car, an SUV, I will probably go 3D Needle CCB again.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by allinon72

A lot of stuff on higher end cars have this kind of markup. Racing stripes on the new GT500 are 10k, for example.

It exists because the market bares it. Exclusivity means potential buyers are willing to pay more for it. Carbon ceramics are still low volume of production in comparison to the millions of iron rotors sold. And carbon ceramics are not suitable for mass market either, at least not in current form.

Yes, some ceramics are not suitable for mass market- not for a Honda, agreed.

Disagree with production. The current production of CCBs is hundreds of thousands of sets, and some manufacturers are not at 10% of maximum. The pressure chambers contain so few preforms that they run essentially empty. The reason why they are made in low numbers is indeed the small volume of sales. But, for example, one CCB maker I know started with 2000 sets in 2014, and is now nearing 20,000 a year, with room up to 100,000 units... Order relative. It would come as no surprise that the primary clients for these CCB makers are SUV owners- Merc, Range Rovers etc. MacLaren or 911 owners usually stick with their brand, and at 5,000kms/year these sets need a very long time to wear out. what has changed- and you know it as well- is cars. We now drive more SUVs and PU trucks, with ever bigger and bigger brakes. Today's SUV front rotors exceed the 1990s Supercar rotor size. This is a significant revolution in automotive preference. Sedans now have 19" wheels with 340mm rotors. Part of the reason is aesthetic, can you imagine a 20" Premium SUV with 340mm front rotors?

The second reason is practical- heavy cars needed better braking and numbers sell. Large expensive steel rotors took off just like pricey 275/35 21" SUV sizes. For the X3 M40i with 21" wheels, I calculated the rear tyre cost at 1400$ CAD EACH. In size 20" 400$!!! 19" 375- Michelins or Contis.

A drawback, particularly in Canada, is that BBK are harder to warm up and use in winter than smaller size units. at quarter pedal, my BBK when steel engaged the ABS below -10C. As a result, they stay colder, wet, the top contracts and pad never touches, and after months at 24% salinity (the actual salt standard north of Detroit), they fall in pieces after 2 winters. Owners are then shocked by the 1000$ min bill. TO get 100,000kms of my Steel Brembos, and they were at 29.2 when retired (28-30 specs), I had to wash them weekly, rebed them above 0C, and sagital as well as run-out rust still pitted them. Albeit slower than cheap cast iron rotors. My older Civic, within the family, runs GT grade, Canadian steel, /Cadmium plated rotors, 5 years now. They fared well as their small size ensured a hotter metal in winter and no run-out or cool portions on the disc.

[Graves]

So, sub $5,000 for all 4 corners or combined front and back? I am a little confused on what I get for my money. Really it is just rotors to pair up with my standard M3 Calipers and pads right?

[Kev608]

Originally Posted by Graves

So, sub $5,000 for all 4 corners or combined front and back? I am a little confused on what I get for my money. Really it is just rotors to pair up with my standard M3 Calipers and pads right?

I think the cost is $5,000 per rotor. Also, you'll need to find pads that fit your calipers for CCB.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Graves

So, sub $5,000 for all 4 corners or combined front and back? I am a little confused on what I get for my money. Really it is just rotors to pair up with my standard M3 Calipers and pads right?

The point of my original entry was that the actual CCB cost to the manufacturer, including profit, is some 350$ per chopped (C/SiC Resin-epoxy based classic, 1970-2020 CCBs) rotor and prospect owners are being literally gauged by greedy distributors. Model of car relative, some xCCB sets sell for 20,000$ but they cost less than 2,000$ for the full front and rear set.

The price is indeed coming down, driven by the Asian manufacturers, but their US distributors love charging 12-15,000$ per set irrespective of size. Today, 5K would get you a next gen 3D 400-410mm front axle set, including pads, from a manufacturer (not to be confused with distributors that appear to manufacture). Rear would be less- but would last 300-400,000 kms, or more, as they experience a fraction of the front heat cycles.. Yes, you can pair them with any calipers (4 or 6 pistons). Note that 3D carbons are far more labour intensive, (a fancy machine needs to needle in the preform carbon fibres) and incomparably more so than chopped CCBs. But one US that I shall not name charges 12,000$ for a front 3D set, and 18,000$ IF the set goes on a 911 Gt. 4-5k is the real price and a bargain if going straight to the manufacturer.

Chopped CCBs are 12-16 months away from mass production by 2-3 other makers. Presently if you go to ST, Remmen rotors or Rotora, expect the fol quotes for chopped CCBs:

FRONT: $7,695
6-piston forged caliper|380-410x32mm ceramic disc system

REAR: $5,595
4-piston forged caliper|355-370x32mm ceramic disc system

With low volume production cost +20% markup is likely 1200$ front set and 900-1000$ rear set.. In large volumes (10 to 100,000 unit sets), it is 800$ front set and 700$ rear set (including profit). Anything else above this figure is greed.

[Kev608]

Originally Posted by Musashi

The point of my original entry was that the actual CCB cost to the manufacturer, including profit, is some 350$ per chopped (C/SiC Resin-epoxy based classic, 1970-2020 CCBs) rotor and prospect owners are being literally gauged by greedy distributors. Model of car relative, some xCCB sets sell for 20,000$ but they cost less than 2,000$ for the full front and rear set.

The price is indeed coming down, driven by the Asian manufacturers, but their US distributors love charging 12-15,000$ per set irrespective of size. Today, 5K would get you a next gen 3D 400-410mm front axle set, including pads, from a manufacturer (not to be confused with distributors that appear to manufacture). Rear would be less- but would last 300-400,000 kms, or more, as they experience a fraction of the front heat cycles.. Yes, you can pair them with any calipers (4 or 6 pistons). Note that 3D carbons are far more labour intensive, (a fancy machine needs to needle in the preform carbon fibres) and incomparably more so than chopped CCBs. But one US that I shall not name charges 12,000$ for a front 3D set, and 18,000$ IF the set goes on a 911 Gt. 4-5k is the real price and a bargain if going straight to the manufacturer.

Chopped CCBs are 12-16 months away from mass production by 2-3 other makers. Presently if you go to ST, Remmen rotors or Rotora, expect the fol quotes for chopped CCBs:

FRONT: $7,695
6-piston forged caliper|380-410x32mm ceramic disc system

REAR: $5,595
4-piston forged caliper|355-370x32mm ceramic disc system

With low volume production cost +20% markup is likely 1200$ front set and 900-1000$ rear set.. In large volumes (10 to 100,000 unit sets), it is 800$ front set and 700$ rear set (including profit). Anything else above this figure is greed.

I am failing to see what your point is in all of this. Basically every performance car part has this ridiculous markup. It's a well known fact. Probably nothing we can do about it.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Kev608

I am failing to see what your point is in all of this. Basically every performance car part has this ridiculous markup. It's a well known fact. Probably nothing we can do about it.

If you knew about this particular markup, that is cool. But, for example, to make its cars, BMW generates only 7-9% annual profit. Dealerships some 6-7% as well. For items with more competition, e.g. tyres, the markup is perhaps less. iPhones have a know 50-60% markup. But it all pales when discussing 800% figure for a very specific part.

What we can do about it is drive competition. It really works. I was recently told by one maker that its target sale price per chopped CCB will be 1000$ per rotor. Ok, well in Canada, the 370mm steels cost me 800$ each. Until recently, one was "condemned" to pay 5,000$ per CCB rotor . Now, with globalization, we can shop around for 1000-1500$. that was not the case just 5 years ago and it is frigging awesome.

The sooner Brembo and its small number of partner suppliers face competition, the better it becomes for us.

[The Choosey begger]

Greedy German car manufacturers have been hosing their customers for years. Porsche used to charge extra for cruise control.

Lava Orange, Miami Blue is a $5,000 option if i remember correctly!

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by anglo

Greedy German car manufacturers have been hosing their customers for years. Porsche used to charge extra for cruise control.

Lava Orange, Miami Blue is a $5,000 option if i remember correctly!

I know I know, but paint may not be the best example. My old Civic 2006 had several paint jobs- hood, fenders. the top was peeling off and repainted. US covered customers with a recall. Canada was left behind until this year, when a Class action lawsuit, for Quebec only - one province, is asking 240,000,000$ to cover 80,000 blue black and grey Civics, all peeling off, 2006 to 2012 models. Others do not peel, just rot or rust. +40 to -50C (windchill) and chemical salts expose that.

then we have german cars, premium, IMMUNE, at least those ULSAB types introduced after 2000s. ULSAB was brought in by Porsche (they used to rust, plus decided one day to bring aerospace grade tech to cars). ULSAB was then adopted by BMW, Audi Volvo, Maserati etc. Either case, Ottawa is home to Canada's best bodywork/touch-less paint repair expert (he can fix a keyed scratch without any touch up just with heat moving the pain over 1 mm). He is so good that he has open doors to Weissack, Munich, Stuttgart, and service centers ask for his help as he can eye spot any repaint and then the measuring gauge confirms it after. The point is, he told me that German factory line paint is the best in the world. thick, well applied, 4-6 kms of bodywork, primers and paint etc. Easy to fix, will survive dents etc. US paint lines at Spartanburg (BMW) are worse, but above the Japanese and light years ahead of tesla. Now, wrt custom paints like Lava Orange, Miami Blue, they require a custom prep, from robots, new nozzles, perfect cleanup from a previous batch, lots of new parts before the robots start painting. A very specific quantity of fresh paint is made, inspected before, tested, sprayed. then many hours of inch by inch inspected and measured- not Bugatti grade (100 hours), but 10-20 hours. So the manual and labour aspect of the custom job is worth at least 1500-2000 euros. Once delivered, they have no history of returns for defects. On the other hand, standard paints have small imperfections that BMW considers "acceptable."

But yes, markups are nasty. Upside, residual value much higher. Many Porsches are appreciating each winter!

[arashir]

This is very interesting and the pricing makes a lot of psychological sense given how much consumers are used to spending to replace these when you factor in part lifetime.

This perhaps explains why BMW (if not everybody) have priced the CCB option roughly according to advertised rotor lifetime, just like they have with the ultra expensive new battery technology that you don't get an option for.

In both cases the replacement cost is something like 10x the older technology, but the advertised part lifetime is around 10x as well so on the face of it the customer could feel that the replacement price is reasonable since they wouldn't expect to spend more in proportion to the lifetime of the part. I almost convinced myself the CCB was worth it when I was doing that math until I started reading about the other undesirable peculiarities of CCB.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by arashir

This is very interesting and the pricing makes a lot of psychological sense given how much consumers are used to spending to replace these when you factor in part lifetime.

This perhaps explains why BMW (if not everybody) have priced the CCB option roughly according to advertised rotor lifetime, just like they have with the ultra expensive new battery technology that you don't get an option for.

In both cases the replacement cost is something like 10x the older technology, but the advertised part lifetime is around 10x as well so on the face of it the customer could feel that the replacement price is reasonable since they wouldn't expect to spend more in proportion to the lifetime of the part. I almost convinced myself the CCB was worth it when I was doing that math until I started reading about the other undesirable peculiarities of CCB.

Indeed, warm climates, front Brembo GT Steels last... 70,000-100,000 Kms. Some owners get even more. Assume 1400$ installed, 300,000kms is 4200$. Some owners claims 150,000 kms front set so 2,800$. Now, the BMW Ceramics clearly do not last long with spirited driving, they do not seem a high quality CCB. Even then, from 350$ to 5,000$ markup, it is nuts and likely 10,000$ for two CCB sets in 300,000 kms..

I wonder what happens when a few brembo competitors hit the market with 700$ CCB sets..

You are correct, classic, chopped CCB was not worth it in several circumstances, but are you talking about classic, chopped CCB? Because next-Gen CCBs, needle 3D continuous, available for autos since 2017, leave the classics in the dust and last longer, much longer than classic CCBs. From CoF, material properties, no cold issues and many more advantages. As per threat at:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2#post25468802

[Maitre_Absolut]

stop saying chopped

[BhamDavid]

Economics 101:

The price for anything is set by what consumers will pay for it, not by what it costs to manufacture.

[M4_Johnnys]

This applies to all car parts, I worked in the car industry as an engineer for many years, on both the car manufacture side and the parts supplier side.

It's common for a parts manufacturer to build a part for say $40, sell it to the car company for $80, and then the car company would then sell it for $800 (these are real numbers from something I worked on). This mark up is common. Don't be surprised, how do you think they afford to pay thousands of engineers and staff to design and build the cars we love?

So yes they could sell the CCB for $1000, but then they wouldn't have enough money to pay engineers to actually design the next version...