We Talk M3 / M4 Nurburgring Time, Electric Steering & Other Tech Highlights w/ BMW M

[swagon]

Originally Posted by rave426

Dafuq. You both deserve an infraction for this.

Haha, yeah.

I, for one, does not car if the new car is faster or slower than the outgoing M3. And some of you are not even satisfied with the 10 seconds. WTF people.

[Whostheboss]

Engine crankshaft is about 3kg (6.6 lbs) lighter than typical BMW inline 6 engine, but 20% stiffer.

wow

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer

Nobody is denying it is faster. I think we are just saying the improvements over the current car are marginal or in other words not as much as they were in the last generation.

You need to remember the old E46 M3 didnt even have navigation or half the features the current M3 did. Not only the current M3 was a massive improvement in the performance arena with a major improvement in all aspects, it also had lots of new features.

Fast forward 8 years now and I dont see the same improvements. The cars dont look vastly different from a feature perspective. The idrive is the same, nav is same, leather material is same , stiching is same, edc is same, dct is same, list goes on and on, there are just way too many same things. When people looked at the E92 after E46, they saw a totally different car that not only had improvements but also had new innovative features. BMW invented new technologies from ground up, they didnt just replace metal with carbon fiber and called it a new feature.

Of course the new car will be faster, how could it not be? But do you honestly think this car is going to drive, look, and feel lightyears ahead of the current car? There is not a single feature in it that makes me want to sell my car, maybe the HUD, but thats it. Nothing really attracts me and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

I am going to drop 80-90k for a new car. Its not like I have this syndrome of not letting my M3 go, I just dont think this car is worth the difference.

Look at the new Z06, now thats a car that screams new features and innovation. GM built the engine, transmission, suspension, aero, and interior from ground up. They made a brand new car. Do you see and understand the difference?

there definitely was a big tech gap between the e46 and e92. I owned both. I thought the e46 had certain advantages. The lighter weight was good and I preferred the more engaging and mechanical feel.

I think there are a lot of improvements between the e92 and the f8x. I believe that the lighter weight is a huge factor. I also think the interior is far nicer than the e9x, and I love the fact that the m3 now has some real sport oriented bucket seats that wont suck on the track like mine do. I think the interior is more different from the regular 3 series than it has ever been.

The motor is also more to my liking. It is better suited to this type and size of car. To me, the s65 was a great motor trapped in a fat mans body. It struggled to generate the power unless you were really on it. It should have been in something like a 911 that was closer to 3200lbs or less.

I definitely appreciate the z06, and although base form to base form it is significantly more than the m3 (15kish), it is a phenomenal performance mahchine.

However, I could never own it as an only car. That is what the m3 is, the perfect compromise car. It is awesome because it can DD with the best of them, and still hit the track and tear up the street at a very high level.

I didn't like the lack of torque, weak brakes, basic interior and weight of the e9x. All of those things are alleviated on this model for me.

Sure, if I had a weekend car id take the z06 all day. But I would never consider an m3 anyway for that type of car. Things like a used gt3, r8, z06, etc... are all more compelling options as a second car. Much more focused and sports car oriented.

I personally wouldn't compare a vette to an m3 because I only own one car and like it that way.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Rupes

They better think about adding the Corvette to that list now. In the past you could get away with excluding it, but not anymore! Probably purposeful they excluded it.

The Corvette is not a competitor of any M cars, it's a competitor to Ferraris, Porches, Lambos ect... Not every car that cost the same as an other is a competitor!

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer

Nobody is denying it is faster. I think we are just saying the improvements over the current car are marginal or in other words not as much as they were in the last generation.

You need to remember the old E46 M3 didnt even have navigation or half the features the current M3 did. Not only the current M3 was a massive improvement in the performance arena with a major improvement in all aspects, it also had lots of new features.

Fast forward 8 years now and I dont see the same improvements. The cars dont look vastly different from a feature perspective. The idrive is the same, nav is same, leather material is same , stiching is same, edc is same, dct is same, list goes on and on, there are just way too many same things. When people looked at the E92 after E46, they saw a totally different car that not only had improvements but also had new innovative features. BMW invented new technologies from ground up, they didnt just replace metal with carbon fiber and called it a new feature.

Of course the new car will be faster, how could it not be? But do you honestly think this car is going to drive, look, and feel lightyears ahead of the current car? There is not a single feature in it that makes me want to sell my car, maybe the HUD, but thats it. Nothing really attracts me and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

I am going to drop 80-90k for a new car. Its not like I have this syndrome of not letting my M3 go, I just dont think this car is worth the difference.

Look at the new Z06, now thats a car that screams new features and innovation. GM built the engine, transmission, suspension, aero, and interior from ground up. They made a brand new car. Do you see and understand the difference?

I'm with you until the Z06 comment. They took an ancient Eaton blower(which is smaller than the current ones on the Camaro and Corvette ZR-1 by the way) and an f'n 8 speed auto with a torque converter on their flag ship super car. Not exactly innovation, more like cost savings. And don't give me price for performance BS on a car that will be over a 100k. Oh and they also downsized their intercooler 25% while only making it 10% more resistant to heat soak then bragged about it being so small on their press release lol. I guarantee that motor will heat soak on track stock , run extra boost on that tiny eaton and on track it will limp mode.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

I'm with you until the Z06 comment. They took an ancient Eaton blower(which is smaller than the current ones on the Camaro and Corvette ZR-1 by the way) and an f'n 8 speed auto with a torque converter on their flag ship super car. Not exactly innovation, more like cost savings. And don't give me price for performance BS on a car that will be over a 100k. Oh and they also downsized their intercooler 25% while only making it 10% more resistant to heat soak then bragged about it being so small on their press release lol. I guarantee that motor will heat soak on track stock , run extra boost on that tiny eaton and on track it will limp mode.

good info on the IC, that's a huge disappointment and the opposite of what bmw did. I hope it is able to handle the heat on the track.

I only quoted you to say I am EXTREMELY jealous of your cars. A 2014 m6 and supercharged z4m. DAMN SON

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

good info on the IC, that's a huge disappointment and the opposite of what bmw did. I hope it is able to handle the heat on the track.

I only quoted you to say I am EXTREMELY jealous of your cars. A 2014 m6 and supercharged z4m. DAMN SON

Yeah I'm sure it will be a beast for the street but they seem to have gotten caught up in making the LT4 the same size as the LT1 in the stingray, and compromised trackability and performance ceiling.
Ha Thanks!. Yeah with just intake and Dp's my M6 is light years faster despite its 1000 lb weight disadvantage. 11.4 @ 128.5 1/4 mile without launch control and 7.95 60-130 by Vbox. But the Z4M is king on a road course A perfect combo !

[smashhell]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

there definitely was a big tech gap between the e46 and e92. I owned both. I thought the e46 had certain advantages. The lighter weight was good and I preferred the more engaging and mechanical feel.

I think there are a lot of improvements between the e92 and the f8x. I believe that the lighter weight is a huge factor. I also think the interior is far nicer than the e9x, and I love the fact that the m3 now has some real sport oriented bucket seats that wont suck on the track like mine do. I think the interior is more different from the regular 3 series than it has ever been.

The motor is also more to my liking. It is better suited to this type and size of car. To me, the s65 was a great motor trapped in a fat mans body. It struggled to generate the power unless you were really on it. It should have been in something like a 911 that was closer to 3200lbs or less.

I definitely appreciate the z06, and although base form to base form it is significantly more than the m3 (15kish), it is a phenomenal performance mahchine.

However, I could never own it as an only car. That is what the m3 is, the perfect compromise car. It is awesome because it can DD with the best of them, and still hit the track and tear up the street at a very high level.

I didn't like the lack of torque, weak brakes, basic interior and weight of the e9x. All of those things are alleviated on this model for me.

Sure, if I had a weekend car id take the z06 all day. But I would never consider an m3 anyway for that type of car. Things like a used gt3, r8, z06, etc... are all more compelling options as a second car. Much more focused and sports car oriented.

I personally wouldn't compare a vette to an m3 because I only own one car and like it that way.

Perfectly said!

I didn't buy a E92 M3 for the exact reasons. Almost no torque and outdated interior.

The E92 M3 wasn't THAT good IMO.

[ChiTownM]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Did they "hint" at the M2 at all? I ask because I thought it was interesting the way that they said the plan was to use a M235 to move people into the proper M3/M4.

I doubt it but have the same curiosity about M2....the competition is already there, the M235i is not cutting it for me and I want a smaller and nimbler real M similar to the first one I owned, the e36. I do not consider the new M3/4 to be the answer for such a target market.

[MSteve5036]

Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer

Nobody is denying it is faster. I think we are just saying the improvements over the current car are marginal or in other words not as much as they were in the last generation.

You need to remember the old E46 M3 didnt even have navigation or half the features the current M3 did. Not only the current M3 was a massive improvement in the performance arena with a major improvement in all aspects, it also had lots of new features.

Fast forward 8 years now and I dont see the same improvements. The cars dont look vastly different from a feature perspective. The idrive is the same, nav is same, leather material is same , stiching is same, edc is same, dct is same, list goes on and on, there are just way too many same things. When people looked at the E92 after E46, they saw a totally different car that not only had improvements but also had new innovative features. BMW invented new technologies from ground up, they didnt just replace metal with carbon fiber and called it a new feature.

Of course the new car will be faster, how could it not be? But do you honestly think this car is going to drive, look, and feel lightyears ahead of the current car? There is not a single feature in it that makes me want to sell my car, maybe the HUD, but thats it. Nothing really attracts me and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

I am going to drop 80-90k for a new car. Its not like I have this syndrome of not letting my M3 go, I just dont think this car is worth the difference.

Look at the new Z06, now thats a car that screams new features and innovation. GM built the engine, transmission, suspension, aero, and interior from ground up. They made a brand new car. Do you see and understand the difference?

Personally I think the big difference everyone is looking for is going to be in the feel of the car. With the nature of the FI engine vs the NA, I think every day driving will feel different. Lots of people complain about the lack of torque on the e9x and what not, but I don't really hear complaints about lack of torque on the track.

Point is, while some people say that 10 seconds is not much, or an optioned e9x can keep up, but I don't think it will feel that way when you are driving home from the office. The "only 10 sec difference" is coming on a track where the e9x will be in its power band the whole time. Just like many of the other FI cars out now, the f8x might be more enjoyable within legal (or slightly illegal) limits of the street.


I think the biggest news from this article is the steering feel...very interested to see how that EPS actually feels to me. Up to this point I have never felt EPS that feels the same (or better). I know the benefits to EPS and I think it will get there. It will be pretty cool if this is when it "gets there"

[richardg]

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

The car sounds very exciting, I think they are underestimating how quick the car is around the Ring for these reasons:
1. Torque- this car has to explode out of corners
2. Less weight with bigger brakes
3. Larger tires, and 7 years of tire tech

Yeah when Michelin released the pilot super sport a few years back the e92m was one of the cars they tested with and picked up 2 seconds around whatever course they were testing at when compared to the PS2.

[MikeJ87]

M235i is the gateway drug. I agree, I just got my 435i with M performance pack (in Canada M Performance Pack 1 & 2) so it has everything the M235i has but in a 4er.

I have the itch to get an M4 and will probably do so after I have had mine for 2 years, who knows maybe 1.

The gateway drug works!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Jason

■ Reported DIN weight is with standard brakes (not carbon ceramics).

■ Carbon ceramic brakes save 6-7kg (13.2lbs - 15.4lbs) overall. Not as much weight saved as on the F10 M5 with ceramic brakes, but that's because the caliper upgrade is much bigger than in the M5's situation. Here, we're seeing the calipers go from 4 piston front / 2 piston rear on the standard M3/M4 brakes to the 6 piston front / 4 piston rear calipers on the M Carbon Ceramic Brakes.

This is an important piece of information IMO.

For a 15lb saving and a $8500 CAD cost, the CCB will not be a valid option for me. The standard brakes on the F8X, an upgrade (4 piston front and 2 piston rear) compared to the E9X, should be plenty sufficient for track use without need for a BBK.

[solstice]

10s really isn't that much at the ring. Against the E9X it's about 2% faster. You can probably achieve that by wider, grippier tires alone. I.e say that 50% of the track is corners and you can keep a 5% higher corner speed due to the tires, done.

I couldn't care less though since the E9X is already plenty fast for my use but what I do care about is steering feel and I'm exstatic to hear what they say about it. It is my number one concern, always has been with the new car and their confidence is heartening ( they actually state it is better than the new GT3, "best money can by"). I'm looking forward to this car.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer

Who says there is not enough torque in the M3? I never felt that. Going from 300 to 400 is decent of course also, but it isnt like the 500-600 some other cars have like M5 or Amg or corvette. So it is going to feel good but not gluing you down to your seat good.

It's torque at the wheels that counts, not torque at the crank.

How many times does it need to be said

[Jay-K]

interesting car.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Jarhead

Do we know if there is any way to turn it off in comfort or sport?? This would be a deal breaker for me. I really enjoy doing this myself and don't want to go DCT just yet. I also don't want to be in sport + during casual driving.

Could be possible to change via coding perhaps, just like so many other features.

[ChiTownM]

I have to agree, never understood that torque comment around the M3. Mine is a daily driver in Chicago and it has served me well for 4 years so far. I also have another bigger M with the twin turbo V8 and while there is a huge difference in the engine characteristics, it does not make me feel that the M3 is underpowered. I also chose a single hump M3 with no options and the interior in definitely outdated, I would've enjoyed HUD...

We had choices in the past, now everything is turbo with BMW which is my main gripe.....at least they are upgrading the interiors nicely.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

This is an important piece of information IMO.

For a 15lb saving and a $8500 CAD cost, the CCB will not be a valid option for me. The standard brakes on the F8X, an upgrade (4 piston front and 2 piston rear) compared to the E9X, should be plenty sufficient for track use without need for a BBK.

I've heard from many weekend track guys that even a BBK on the E9x was overkill. I would agree that CCB is probably overkill.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer

Who says there is not enough torque in the M3? I never felt that. Going from 300 to 400 is decent of course also, but it isnt like the 500-600 some other cars have like M5 or Amg or corvette. So it is going to feel good but not gluing you down to your seat good.

33% increase is pretty fine, better than decent I'd say

[Goat Rodeo]

Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer

You need to remember the old E46 M3 didnt even have navigation

Of course the new car will be faster, how could it not be? But do you honestly think this car is going to drive, look, and feel lightyears ahead of the current car? There is not a single feature in it that makes me want to sell my car, maybe the HUD, but thats it. Nothing really attracts me and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

I am going to drop 80-90k for a new car. Its not like I have this syndrome of not letting my M3 go, I just dont think this car is worth the difference.

1. My E46 M3 has navigation.

2. Why does this matter?

3. Nobody buys a first model year M4. You lease it. This is going to be a 64K car, nicely speced from base and with navigation, and you'll be able to lease one for 700/mo in a few years. Nothing comes close in that price range -- nothing -- and for so cheap it really doesn't have to be light years ahead of its predecessor to be a winner.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo

1. My E46 M3 has navigation.

2. Why does this matter?

3. Nobody buys a first model year M4. You lease it. This is going to be a 64K car, nicely speced from base and with navigation, and you'll be able to lease one for 700/mo in a few years. Nothing comes close in that price range -- nothing -- and for so cheap it really doesn't have to be light years ahead of its predecessor to be a winner.

You can lease a C7 Vette for 599 a month with low annual mileage.