M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

My $0.02, it's going to be a long wait due to the weight of EVs and the big torque usually meaning single speed gear box

As I understand it some of the manufacturers of formula e are going with 2 gear trannys, we may well see multi gear transmissions in future evs. The tech is still too early. I understand that electric motors typically have no use for multiple gears, but as more performance evs come out it may make sense to have more gears for consistent acceleration v efficiency.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

As I understand it some of the manufacturers of formula e are going with 2 gear trannys, we may well see multi gear transmissions in future evs. The tech is still too early. I understand that electric motors typically have no use for multiple gears, but as more performance evs come out it may make sense to have more gears for consistent acceleration v efficiency.

I think it's 170ft of torque for the formula E cars (which are also much lighter and rwd). Street EV with big torque and AWD would be brutal on multi speed gearboxes

Btw, as an aside, GT4 has super long gears and public rationale is that you spend less time shifting so it's "better". At a place like mosport, you're mostly in 3rd. With maybe 1 shift to 2nd and 1 shift to forth (maybe you are in 4th more if you're a faster driver than me). If lack of DCT gear change when you track is a key factor for you, knock GT4 off your list

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I think it's 170ft of torque for the formula E cars (which are also much lighter and rwd). Street EV with big torque and AWD would be brutal on multi speed gearboxes

Btw, as an aside, GT4 has super long gears and public rationale is that you spend less time shifting so it's "better". At a place like mosport, you're mostly in 3rd. With maybe 1 shift to 2nd and 1 shift to forth (maybe you are in 4th more if you're a faster driver than me). If lack of DCT gear change when you track is a key factor for you, knock GT4 off your list

I have not considered the cayman gt4 (you must have me confused with someone else), and many consider the last one with the long gears something porsche did to limit the acceleration times vs the 911 not to improve motorsport.

I do have an incoming 2019 991.2 c2s eta in a few weeks (last of the 991's). I'll revisit ev cars in a year or two when my m3 is due to be sold.

[BMWsully]

Now that the performance package is essentially free, the model 3 is very intriguing to me. That said, they just haven't figured out that people who buy a performance oriented trim want the car to feel "special".

Say what you want about BMW, but they really have mastered the art of making the M cars (the true Ms that is) something special from both aesthetic and performance standpoints.

Tesla has the performance piece down, but I seriously can't tell the difference between the two variants. Maybe someone can chime in who has seen both (Model 3 and Model 3 perf) in person, as I suppose it's possible that pictures don't do the car justice?

[InsanePineapple]

Originally Posted by BMWsully

Now that the performance package is essentially free, the model 3 is very intriguing to me. That said, they just haven't figured out that people who buy a performance oriented trim want the car to feel "special".

Say what you want about BMW, but they really have mastered the art of making the M cars (the true Ms that is) something special from both aesthetic and performance standpoints.

Tesla has the performance piece down, but I seriously can't tell the difference between the two variants. Maybe someone can chime in who has seen both (Model 3 and Model 3 perf) in person, as I suppose it's possible that pictures don't do the car justice?

It's very subtle. Only P3 has 20" wheels, which unfortunately looks exactly the same as the optional 19" wheels that the RWD and AWD models can opt for. The only currently reliable indicator is the red calipers. Lastly, there's the carbon fiber deck spoiler and the Dual Motor badge with red underline. Unfortunately, the last two have not been made available to owners 6 months after release of the P3. Rumor has it that they will be available this quarter.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I have not considered the cayman gt4 (you must have me confused with someone else), and many consider the last one with the long gears something porsche did to limit the acceleration times vs the 911 not to improve motorsport.

I do have an incoming 2019 991.2 c2s eta in a few weeks (last of the 991's). I'll revisit ev cars in a year or two when my m3 is due to be sold.

Congrats on the 991.2

Porsche + EV is "the" combo in my biased opinion

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Congrats on the 991.2

Porsche + EV is "the" combo in my biased opinion

Thanks, its been a real debate on whether to just wait for the 992, but I don't like the new 911 for various reasons that would jack this thread.

I am wow'd in the Rivian concept ev pickups and suvs. It would seem like a perfect package for utility and ev use- with some off roading even possible.
Curious on your thoughts on such a vehicle? Could it become a compromised vehicle like my x5m, which I mean is neither a performance ev, nor a real suv, nor even capable off roader/overlander? Great times we live in, lots of exciting new products in the pipe line, even that Hyundai Kona EV is pretty amazing for a compact lower priced suv/ev.

https://products.rivian.com/

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Thanks, its been a real debate on whether to just wait for the 992, but I don't like the new 911 for various reasons that would jack this thread.

I am wow'd in the Rivian concept ev pickups and suvs. It would seem like a perfect package for utility and ev use- with some off roading even possible.
Curious on your thoughts on such a vehicle? Could it become a compromised vehicle like my x5m, which I mean is neither a performance ev, nor a real suv, nor even capable off roader/overlander? Great times we live in, lots of exciting new products in the pipe line, even that Hyundai Kona EV is pretty amazing for a compact lower priced suv/ev.

https://products.rivian.com/

I am wow'd by Rivian also. I am also keeping an eye for updates from another company, Bollinger, that makes an EV that looks like a HumVee.

I'm not a 100% what a "real" suv is, but my $0.02: It will definitely be able to hold a lot of stuff and accelerate quickly in a straight line. It will definitely be compromised in hard cornering because of the weight and height. My GUESS is that towing will reduce the range to the point that it's not viable (and recharging with a trailer is very hard with current infrastructure (you need to unhook trailer or block like 8 spaces) and the off roading will be more optimized with a dedicated ICE old modded jeep (just like how track days are better with dedicated ice old modded sports car)

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I am wow'd by Rivian also. I am also keeping an eye for updates from another company, Bollinger, that makes an EV that looks like a HumVee.

I'm not a 100% what a "real" suv is, but my $0.02: It will definitely be able to hold a lot of stuff and accelerate quickly in a straight line. It will definitely be compromised in hard cornering because of the weight and height. My GUESS is that towing will reduce the range to the point that it's not viable (and recharging with a trailer is very hard with current infrastructure (you need to unhook trailer or block like 8 spaces) and the off roading will be more optimized with a dedicated ICE old modded jeep (just like how track days are better with dedicated ice old modded sports car)

Yeah, I didn't think about the towing effects on the ev range. I would imagine for rock crawling/overlanding an ev with crawl control, individual motors on each wheel, etc would be amazing, Weight would not be such a penalty vs a sports car ev, etc. At this point however, you're right an ice jeep would still be king.

[BMWsully]

I test drove a a Model 3 Perf over the weekend and I must say that was pleasantly surprised. It drives great and off the line acceleration is insane. The materials aren't amazing, but they also aren't as bad as some make them out to be - think entry level BMW type.

I'm still not completely sold that it will be my next car, but it's at least in consideration now.

[dkhm3]

I've said this on another thread, after test driving one there is definitely something amazing about the model 3 performance.

for me:
+
instant torque, passing power
great handling considering the weight and under tired in stock form
great traction off the line
technology very impressive in day to day commuting- interface, ease of use, etc.

-
non linear power delivery drops at higher speed, no crescendo of ice cars at higher revs, etc.
no interaction with driver- no shifts, not much personality, just floor it, etc.
spongy seats offer less lateral support
no sound, eerily quiet- for some a plus with the s55 sound heh
despite great handling, no way to disguise substantial weight in transitions, not nimble vs f8x

There are other benefits and negatives, but I think performance wise, there is still a large spread between enjoying the drive and going fast. EV has mastered the art of going fast, but I don't find the car close to as fun to drive vs an ICE equivalent.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

There are other benefits and negatives, but I think performance wise, there is still a large spread between enjoying the drive and going fast. EV has mastered the art of going fast, but I don't find the car close to as fun to drive vs an ICE equivalent.

Enjoying the drive is absolutely what matters, and I think this is pretty much the same discussion of old vs new that goes on all the time.

Like, I’m not super interested in non GT new Porsche, and prefer the rawer and older school feel of my modded 996TT versus the 991.x generation. But I totally get why others would take the newer cars (in cabin tech, dct, better driver aids, etc)

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Enjoying the drive is absolutely what matters, and I think this is pretty much the same discussion of old vs new that goes on all the time.

Like, I’m not super interested in non GT new Porsche, and prefer the rawer and older school feel of my modded 996TT versus the 991.x generation. But I totally get why others would take the newer cars (in cabin tech, dct, better driver aids, etc)

You mean like the new GT2RS, GT3RS, with pdk, pdcc, ptv, ras? Even the gt3 touring has most of the newest tech for performance with a na and manual.

Technology does not need to make cars boring or focused on self driving or just drag strip times. There are plenty of tech out there focused on feedback and driving enjoyment.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

There are plenty of tech out there focused on feedback and driving enjoyment.

The more advanced stability control definitely helps enjoyment, but things like dynamic engine mounds, power steering plus I’m not so sure about.

It’s not 100% fair to compare street cars and race cars but I would get a 997cup for track use instead of any of the new GT cars you mentioned

Isn’t it a similar sentiment you are expressing with model 3 vs f80 In terms of the older ways being more fun for all out driving

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

The more advanced stability control definitely helps enjoyment, but things like dynamic engine mounds, power steering plus I’m not so sure about.

It’s not 100% fair to compare street cars and race cars but I would get a 997cup for track use instead of any of the new GT cars you mentioned

Isn’t it a similar sentiment you are expressing with model 3 vs f80 In terms of the older ways being more fun for all out driving

I think there is some confusion here. I am comparing 2 cars that are contemporaries. Clearly EV vs ICE is the topic, EV is just starting to become a player in the performance market, vs ICE which is peaking and will be phased out eventually. There are positives and negatives of both types of cars and I spelled out what I thought were my evaluations from my experience. You may certainly disagree.

Also, You mentioned only interest in current level GT spec 911's which I brought up ironically pioneered the tech that is in all current porsche models. That point is technology is not to be framed as one sided taking away connection to the car.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I think there is some confusion here. I am comparing 2 cars that are contemporaries. Clearly EV vs ICE is the topic, EV is just starting to become a player in the performance market, vs ICE which is peaking and will be phased out eventually. There are positives and negatives of both types of cars and I spelled out what I thought were my evaluations from my experience. You may certainly disagree.

Also, You mentioned only interest in current level GT spec 911's which I brought up ironically pioneered the tech that is in all current porsche models. That point is technology is not to be framed as one sided taking away connection to the car.

Not disagreeing at all. I’m on board with your points and am just enjoying the discussion.

I do think the older Gt cars are more connected to the driver than the newer ones (despite the undeniable increase in stock vs stock performance of each new generation). 996 gt3 had only abs and still holds its own in the “feel” aspects vs the newer cars. (That’s likely a very debateable statement)

I trying to point out that feel and fun do tend to get decreased with tech, so I wasn’t surprised by your f80 vs ev assessment.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Not disagreeing at all. I’m on board with your points and am just enjoying the discussion.

I do think the older Gt cars are more connected to the driver than the newer ones (despite the undeniable increase in stock vs stock performance of each new generation). 996 gt3 had only abs and still holds its own in the “feel” aspects vs the newer cars. (That’s likely a very debateable statement)

I trying to point out that feel and fun do tend to get decreased with tech, so I wasn’t surprised by your f80 vs ev assessment.

I have never driven older p cars so I am not in the know on how they are v newer ones.

I think the newer tech that makes the car lighter like carbon fiber drive shaft, roof, as well as tech to enhance the feel of the car like rear wheel steer are things that we can appreciate and feel on daily drives-

for ev cars- again I appreciate what Tesla has done with their model 3 perf, this car is a breakthrough on bridging the gap between conventional sports cars vs efficient ev tech.

[bimmer456]

So Tesla just lowered the price on all Model 3. The Performance model is now:

$60,900 + $1,200 - $3,750 = $58,350

after federal incentive. Lower with state incentive.

Compare to the M3 which starts at $66,500.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Why does it matter? I don't think a lot of people would cross-shop the two. There may be overlap between the non-M crowd, but people buy Ms for the overall driving experience, which is not just 0-60, top speed, or even lap times (that are meaningless to the vast majority of drivers). The car that M3 competes against is the C63, not any Tesla.

[Tommysalami]

Model 3 acceleration feels faster because the torque is instantaneous. It's pretty awesome and worth test driving if you're thinking about an electric car. It'll fall short in all other driving aspects such as handling, especially if you plan to track the car, so it depends what your priorities are. As a daily driver I think it would be fantastic.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

Why does it matter? I don't think a lot of people would cross-shop the two. There may be overlap between the non-M crowd, but people buy Ms for the overall driving experience, which is not just 0-60, top speed, or even lap times (that are meaningless to the vast majority of drivers). The car that M3 competes against is the C63, not any Tesla.

LOL...have you seen the "typical" people who buy Ms? Next time you see an M3 at a light or gas station, ask the owner how many cylinders their engine has and see if they know the answer.

Perhaps there is more differentiation between M and non-M owners in flyover states, but at least in the Bay Area, the only difference between the two is their propensity to spend more on a higher trim level.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

Compare to the M3

Two important facts to highlight:

a) The M3 is no longer available to order at any price. So the M3's base price is irrelevant now. You get what's on the lots today, and that's that.

b) Even with the price drop in January and the one today, the Model 3 price with incentive remains **higher** now than it was a few weeks ago (up until the end of 2018) when the incentive was still $7500.

So, on balance there's almost no news here. You are still paying a few hundred dollars more for the Tesla now than you were last year, but on the plus side you see more of that money up front now rather than waiting for the incentive at tax time. Furthermore, however, the Tesla remains cheaper than the no-longer-orderable M3 just as things had been yesterday and for months prior.