02-15-2016, 09:05 AM | #89 | |
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I am not affiliated with Sameet,TPG or anyone in this thread. I only view this from a neutral perspective and have seen too much personal attacking, which does not bode well for this community. I honestly see no reason why Sameet is being attacked here except that his car ran some TPG Parts that failed on more than one occasion. If anything, we should be thanking him. Without those failures we would not know about the short comings about TPGs crank hub fix. /rant |
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02-15-2016, 09:10 AM | #90 | ||
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02-15-2016, 09:13 AM | #91 | ||
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02-15-2016, 09:30 AM | #92 |
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The kickdown has something to do with it. Every time it happened to me, I had hit the kickdown.
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02-15-2016, 09:56 AM | #93 | |
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There is no such thing as a 0% failure engine, doesn't matter what company. But I better be damn sure that this is truly a problem and that the solution actually helps before I'd break open an engine. Which at this point I'm not even remotely close to that. If it's just literally a handful of engines out of thousands of cars, I wouldn't worry. No one can even say for sure why this is happening yet as far as I can tell (unless you money shifted) My 2 cents.
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02-15-2016, 10:17 AM | #95 | |
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02-15-2016, 10:35 AM | #96 |
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So no stock 6MT hubs have failed besides for one 6MT with the TPG hub?
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02-15-2016, 10:41 AM | #97 |
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Just for the record, I was the first person to bring up the fact that power/torque levels shouldn't affect the crank hub or have anything to do with it spinning. I tried to explain my reasoning in the first thread towards the very beginning when we found out that crank hubs were spinning and TPG released their solution.
I've also stated to several members and friends privately that I believed the issue might be with DCT cars shifting as fast as they do, especially on kick-down going from a very low RPM to high RPM in a matter of a few milliseconds. And the few instances of this happening on 6mt cars were most likely from "money shifts" where not only is the engine experiencing higher RPM's than designed for, but the acceleration to the high RPM over-rev is very fast due to the much lower gear that was chosen by accident that facilited the "money shift". I now personally believe that the stock crank hub is there to help protect the engine in a 6mt car in the event of an over-rev by allowing the crank hub to fail before the engine experiences valve-float which could lead to valve-to-piston contact and/or bent/broken connecting rods and wrist-pins from said over-rev. Because BMW has been using this same crank-hub assembly since 2001, they believed that this crank hub would still be effective on the new DCT cars, and for cost and manufacturing reasons they continued to use it on the DCT cars, despite the fact that the DCT cars shift much faster than their older DCT and auto trans counterparts of the past and despite the fact that a DCT car can't be over-revved. What I believe needs to happen at this point is that BMW (or the aftermarket) needs to design a new crank hub with a proper woodruff key on the actual crank snout to keep the whole assembly from rotating altogether. TPG's design doesn't actually address the crank hub spinning at all as it can still spin and when it does, the modifications to the timing gear and pinned hub make matters even worse. That said, I would still keep using the stock crank hub assembly on a 6mt car for reasons I stated above. |
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02-15-2016, 10:43 AM | #98 | ||
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02-15-2016, 11:28 AM | #99 |
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Thanks for posting this info, JcLusso.
My 2 cents: TPG, just admit that you're going back to the drawing board, and more importantly, stop selling the part already. Not sure why people are jumping on @Sa x sKY/Sameet, he didn't do anything wrong in this. He is the victim ffs. |
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02-15-2016, 11:46 AM | #100 | |
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IMO, he's pushing the narrative that there is a widespread problem (same as TPG) and giving misleading info on the topic. E.g. saying a car is stock and had an issue when it obviously isn't stock. I also disagree with people that think they can just mod their car whatever way they want and then complain that BMW has a faulty design. Maybe the crank hub is a bad design and maybe it isn't. We certainly are not getting anywhere with anecdotes and misleading info IMO. |
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02-15-2016, 11:51 AM | #101 | |
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So your point would be that the cumulative effects of past bullets are important to overall health just like the cumulative effects of past mods? |
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02-15-2016, 11:53 AM | #102 |
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Wow, this forum is disappointing me on this topic....at the same time, this is how the sausage is made for problems to be identified and solutions to be found.
I'm not a mechanical engineer. Heck, I'm not even a tuner by anyone's normal definition. I'm just a car guy. I am however involved in possibly the most structured and costly research in the world, professionally. So with that background, a few summaries: 1. A few failures of a specific part were identified by members on a forum in a low-production volume high performance engine, where part failure could be catastrophic. Whenever this happens - and this happens ALOT with Porsche, Subaru, Corvette, etc. - it blows up before it either dies down or is fixed by the manufacturer (see 01 m3 bearings, Subaru Legacy GT vf40 turbo, Porsche IMS bearings, etc.) 2. The failure of the crank hub has been confused with being tuning related. I was caught by this as well, until some members corrected me and pointed out the crank hub rotation and load has no bearing on engine power output. The crank hub rotational forces have to do with change in engine speed - i.e. free revving or kicking down to 2nd gear from 6th at 70mph and dramatically changing engine speed in a very short time period. 3. TPG, a business, created an immediate product to solve a perceived issue and take advantage of a potential manufacturing issue. They marketed it as such. It is not yet known whether their product is better, worse, or the same as stock - though some analysis indicates it may be more likely to spin, but less likely to result in valve interference. They have responded very professionally on here and have acknowledged a few product failures - which for all we know could be related to existing crank issues, installation issues, or true part failure for their crank hub. Whether or not they should continue to sell their product is beyond me, but I give them credit for participating in the process and forum. They deserve better to be trashed as a company at this stage, even if you want to question their product. 4. People are rushing to point out the majority of known crank hub failures have been on tuned cars. Let's classify a few things: - We are dealing with extremely small numbers. It's immature to identify anything as a "majority" - People who tune are usually members of a car community and share their experiences much more frequently than non-tuners. - As mentioned above, there is no current reason identified for tuning to increase the risk of a spun crank hub/timing gear. 5. Let's not forget that internet forums breed disinformation as quickly as they identify good information. We had one member here who appeared to blow off a vacuum hose who came on and claimed a spun crank hub based upon his symptoms, for example. Be skeptical. .......... Let's calm down and encourage people with actual crank hub issues to share their experiences in a detailed fashion. Sameet's been talking about his crank hub issues for awhile, yet this thread is the first time he's made the comment of "Every time it was right after a kickdown". Let's also seek verification of testimonies - there are people out there who will make stuff up, or twist information to fit the version of the story they want, or who have an entrenched opinion. TLDR version: Deep breathes everyone. |
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02-15-2016, 12:04 PM | #103 | |
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2. I think enough people have looked at this part and decided it definitly is weaker since they cut a notch out of the material in a spot that already has shown stress marks. (photos in OP) 3. It is worse as explained in the OP where I quote Boss330 who explains the difference when the TPG vs. OEM fail. 4. They are still selling the part and not admitting any wrong doing.
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Last edited by JcLusso; 02-15-2016 at 12:25 PM.. |
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02-15-2016, 12:07 PM | #104 | |
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It was written by @JoeFromPA |
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02-15-2016, 12:26 PM | #105 |
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I updated my post. The quote system must have fucked up!
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02-15-2016, 12:28 PM | #106 |
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02-15-2016, 12:32 PM | #107 | |
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I think my initial thoughts on this a while ago seems to correspond well with what you state here. Which would also mean that using a upgraded clutch package and a single mass flywheel most likely will increase the possibility of a failure... And that a "fix" would be beneficial on a tuned engine used for drag racing |
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02-15-2016, 12:38 PM | #108 | |
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For what it's worth, I too don't agree with people modding the s*t out of their car and then blaming bmw for it. |
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02-15-2016, 12:46 PM | #109 |
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The product was indeed removed for sale from the sight until further investigating. Also a new product is in the works as stated with the helpful insight of many members, a new thread will be created when the new product comes to light, this way we can collectively as a community critique the design.
Although the website had the product listed it was not being sold. There is even a member here who I doubt comes forward that had ordered a hub, we spoke with him telling him until we were finished with diagnosis of the failures at hand we would not be selling the kit. We explained we will be looking for a newer stronger solution that should be able to be tested in the coming weeks. He understood, and unfortunately called back a few days later to inform us he indeed spun his stock hub. As for those attributing our broken motor to a spun hub, that simply is not true. Reason for not having tear down pictures is a simple one. That motor is now being used as a mock up engine in our M4 for our single turbo kit. Tear down of the engine was not a priority for us. We understand people wanting more diagnosis however the creation of stronger rods and pistons was due to logic. We know that we are going to continue pushing the limits of this platform. Why risk another stock $20,000 engine? Why not make a stronger product designed to handle higher power levels? In an effort to begin testing, we removed the M3 engine, put it in the M4 and sent it to the fabricator. The M4 engine was then built and installed in the M3. There will be an eventual tear down of that engine , it is just not top priority for us at this time. Again we thank the community , we appreciate the productive feedback and we look forward to putting together a solution as a whole. |
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02-15-2016, 12:51 PM | #110 | |
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I never attacked Sameet personally, just his premise. Again, didn't mean to jack the thread.
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