06-04-2024, 01:31 PM | #1 |
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KW Clubsport on Track
Like many I started tracking on stock suspension . I have passive dampers and honestly I’m unhappy with them. I have a great time on track. But I clearly feel they’re limitation and if even had instructors ride along to confirm I’m getting the most out of them.
I don’t want a coil over setup that will require frequent rebuilds and am willing to sacrifice some performance for that. I drive to and from the track (sometimes 8 hours away) and occasionally street the car. This has me strongly considering KW Clubsports. Curious to get feedback from people who have tracked this setup with some significance. How was the durability? Any insights on a timeline for a rebuild? Any limitations on the setup (seems like the KW camber might be something since people seem to switch them out)? I assume they perform well enough on track and will be miles better than stock. A lot of review threads are old and seem to be from people who just street them and was hoping people could be speak to them more directly on track. If they don’t hold up as well then I’ll likely pay extra for the Bilstein Clubsport setup. |
06-04-2024, 02:47 PM | #2 |
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The KW is a good track suspension, although note the clearance issues which require some creativity to solve so you can run 10.5 square instead of only 10" up front.
I would buy a MCS 1W instead, and I'd bet money it'll last longer before a rebuild. |
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tom @ eas8628.00 |
06-04-2024, 03:07 PM | #3 |
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KW CS is a solid system. I 've driven it a lot on the E92 and it's great.
Intrax 1k2 with ARC and Black Titan is superior because it is as good on track but even more grippy so on track you get compliance around the kerbs and on the street you get the maximum cushioning a racing shock can achieve. Miles better than the KW. Think of it this way, I can drive the KW's on the street for about 1 hour before start having discomfort with the Intrax it can be 4-5 hours like with the Cayenne for example. It's pretty solid. I just put another order now for one of our Cosworths taking the Bilsteins off because the car cannot be driven on the road being so harsh. |
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06-04-2024, 04:07 PM | #4 |
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KW CS works well on track but its road manners aren’t great.
I don’t know your budget but a MCS 1WNR, MCS 2WNR, Nitron R1 and Intrax 1k2 will outperform the KW CS line. Rebuild intervals are all going to be similar for the most part. Bilstein CS 2-way dampers will be outperformed on track by the dampers listed above. Street quality will be similar to other Bilstein dampers which is a harsh ride on the street. Setting C and R damping to their lowest values may improve street compliance some. It’s a decent kit for the price of a 2-way damper setup. |
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06-04-2024, 04:30 PM | #5 | |
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I was under the impression that KWs would have better longevity than MCS or one of the entry level Motorsport dampers. But seemingly like that might be wrong. |
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06-04-2024, 04:38 PM | #6 | |
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My budget isn’t large. Even the KWs are a stretch and I likely would look for a nice used set. For example, I had thought about PSS10s as an affordable, short step but was talked out of those. Basically told id prolly hit the limit on those really soon. The more I spend on coils (both acquiring and maintaining) the more I’d have to cut back on events. Which I want to avoid as much as possible. |
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06-04-2024, 04:51 PM | #7 | |
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06-04-2024, 07:15 PM | #8 |
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I would go directly for a solid 3-way kit, yes, it is more expensive but you will only pay once, on the other hand with clubsport as you improve your lap times you will reach a limit which you cannot exceed, I was in the same situation than you and I decided to buy the best to pay only once and not regret it later, I was right in all way.
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06-04-2024, 08:18 PM | #9 | |
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06-04-2024, 11:00 PM | #10 | |
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I'll probably add a different POV from most of the others here. I can't speak to the KWs specifically but I can offer personal experience with Bilsteins and generally moving to an adjustable suspension system. But before offering an opinion, I'd want to know: 1. Why do you think your current setup is limiting? Specifically what are the issues you are encountering? 2. What tires do you run on track and what's your current pace, e.g. Instructor, Advanced, Intermediate? If Advanced or Instr, how do your lap times compare to some of the faster lap times posted on this forum or others? 3. What is your intended future purpose, medium/long term with the car? Are you looking to just do an occasional HPDE, tons of HPDEs, Time Attack where lap times really matter? Eventually turn it into a race car? Sure, theoretically top brand 3-ways are going to help turn faster lap times. But I've seen plenty of HPDE guys struggling with setup and getting proper front/rear balance. And 3-ways are a big investment if you only occasionally plan to do an HPDE. I've also seen plenty of guys putting in tome plenty quick times on single adjustables like Ohlins or Bilstein PSS10s and decent track tires.
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06-05-2024, 07:16 AM | #11 | |
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1. I think there’s a few things. -rear end getting very light under heavy braking or trail braking. WGI bus stop or VIR back straight. - high speed transitions, especially if the track camber shifts. Car gets bouncy and at speed has me hesitating on throttle. WGI turn 3 or VIR esses. - this is more of a suspicion but I’m hoping I could add more throttle on exit with more read end grip or “sooner” rear end grip from less body roll. WGI carousel. 2. I’m currently on Hankook RS4. Might try extreme contact force. 18x10 square setup. Camber plates. I’m intermediate (PCA blue solo) and am generally one of the faster cars in the group. Still have plenty of room to improve my driving. I’ll be the first to say. 3. “Tons of hpdes” - at least tons for me. I’ll do 6 events this year and am targeting 7-10 next year and want to sustain that. |
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06-05-2024, 10:51 AM | #12 | |
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I will say though that the "rear end getting very light under heavy braking or trail braking" never really went away until I got the suspension very well setup and balanced by a proper shop. I'm still on OEM calipers, but everything else (pads, rotors & shims) is from Paragon. (see my instagram for discount code 6spd_M) Since Typseed corner balanced the car and really did a proper aggressive track alignment it's been amazing in braking. With that being said, I'm definitely moving away from the TC Kline setup over this offseason and going with a 3-way remote reservoir Motion Control kit. The soft spring rates of the TC Kline kit are not getting me to where I want to be with a higher level of downforce. Welcome to the addiction!! There's a lot of great guys on here that have a TON of knowledge. We look forward to seeing your journey! |
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06-05-2024, 12:06 PM | #13 | |
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06-06-2024, 01:07 PM | #14 |
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So far it seems like the consensus is KW clubsports are capable on track and last similar to some of the Motorsport brands such as MCS and Nitron (their websites say 15k-20k ish). In general try and by the most capable suspension I can (3 ways have the most room to grow).
Appreciate everyone’s input so far and welcome anymore feedback from folks who have experience with KW clubsports or any other guidance. |
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06-06-2024, 10:31 PM | #15 | |
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Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think your answers are helpful to get a good pov response. I think, a proper track alignment (if you haven’t had one) is a good start to address some of the issues you listed. With regards to braking instability, ultimately an aero package is really the best way to address it – someone correct me if they think I’m wrong and think it can be dialed out by suspension adjustments alone. But otherwise, yes, an upgraded adjustable suspension will help minimize roll, control bounciness over transitions, bumps, and curbs, and allow tuning on over/under steer to be able to get on the gas earlier on corner exit. 7 – 10 track days a year is a considerable amount – I do roughly 15, which I consider a medium amount and know of guys that do at least 30 days. But none of that is actual racing, which is another animal. But anyways, I think you’re on the right track with what you’re trying to solve with a suspension upgrade and the remaining question is what level and specific system is appropriate for your use case. At a faster intermediate pace, it’s difficult to really understand how much the car is being pushed without knowing everything you’ve done to the car and lap times. It could very well be that you would fit right in to advance, or maybe not just yet. But I think it’s likely that the car has some additional pace you can learn to exploit – as we all can – and that you can make really good in roads into improving handling and overall pace by moving to a better tire. My personal approach to improving has always been to try and apply a cost-benefit rational. I think the best investment is seat time until you’re really pushing the hardware and posting hard proof through either excessive wear (e.g. tire wear because of pace but also lack of camber plates), or lap times that are comparable to the best on similar hardware. Not saying that anyone here has done this, but I’ve seen too many people throwing money (and suggesting others to do the same) at problems without addressing the actual root cause of problems, e.g. a thread on the M2 forum where multiple people suggest a guy spend $1k on transmission mounts and other hardware to address a shifting problem when the real issue was just the way he was shifting. I mean I’ve been at a Ferrari track day event where Giancarlo Fisichella happened to participate. Regular guys driving $600k F488 GT4s were certainly faster than me around WGI. But it certainly was insightful to know that they were 25 seconds off the pace that Fisichella was achieving in the same car. Lol Just because someone bought Olympic level Head downhill skis doesn’t make them an Olympic skier. I’ve seen quite the opposite, and in fact, if your ability isn’t up to the task, often times these more sophisticated hardware items are more of a hamper than a benefit to ones improvement. As with anything, there are pros and cons to anything. Even an upgrade to a simple 1-way adjustable is a big step up from the stock suspension. This would allow you to adjust ride height to enable a corner balance, adjust overall stiffness, and front to rear handling balance. They will also considerably smooth out the ride, especially over uneven pavement, and are super easy to understand and adjust. And as in the case with the Bilstein PSS10s, you can attack curbs all day long as they just eat them up. I go four over the WGI bus stop curb at 90+ with no issues. And they are also built like tanks. I have 80+ days on mine, all driving at Instructor level, they have never been rebuilt, and still no signs of issues. In some very rare cases for me, it would be nice to be able to soften rebound for bumpy braking zones while still minimizing braking squat through low speed compression adjustments, but that’s really my only gripe, given I’m not competing. 3-ways of course offer that additional adjustability. They will typically also have much finer adjustability relative to say the 1-way Bilsteins (2X clicks vs 10 clicks). Having said that, I’ve seen some guys post some very fast times with basic (but good brand) coilover upgrades, and in some cases even on stock suspension. I’ve seen more than one guy in a completely stock F8x M3/M4 lap sub 60 seconds at LRP. I’ve done it in an N55 M2 with stock power and no aero, just PSS10s. And, since we both hit up WGI for reference, my setup is good for sub 2:10 there. I think ultimately the question to ask yourself is whether the $3-5k (10 – 15 HPDE events worth) in upgrading to 3-ways versus simpler adjustable coilovers is worth the finer and finer marginal benefit per dollar spent or would you benefit more at your current stage by participating in more events and getting more track time plus better tires and a whole bunch of brake pads.
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06-06-2024, 10:33 PM | #16 | |
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I get it, and you’re right. Adjusting compression and rebound the same amount is no where close to the best answer to maximize handling. Having full adjustability is really great and it’s also true that a race shop can really help out with getting a fairly good baseline. I used to track on two wheels for a long time with bikes that had fully adjustable suspensions. And with only two wheels with two tiny rubber patches contacting the ground and a rider making up 30% of the overall vehicle weight, a proper suspension setup is even more important than in cars. I even splurged an extra two grand to get the high/low speed comp, rebound, and preload adjustable forks and Ohlins adjustable rear shock on my current street MT09SP over the base model. Having said that, in my experience, 3-ways are considerably more complex to properly adjust. And to really get the most out of them, they should be adjusted on an ongoing basis, from track to track, day to day, temp or tire wear changes, etc. I feel like a pit team would be helpful here, lol. I like the comment that just splurge on the 3-ways and cry once versus crying through multiple upgrades, though I imagine rebuilds should warrant crying too. I’m just not sure the benefits are really cost effective for someone who is at a pre-advanced pace and, more importantly, just wants to do HPDEs. Also, I don’t find Bilsteins hard on street driving, in fact the opposite. I was surprised to see that comment, and wonder what experience you had that reflects this. Bilsteins are a supplier to some of the best riding cars available, including many Porsche/Audi vehicles (including 911s).
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06-07-2024, 12:22 AM | #17 |
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dvas
From my limited use of Bilstein dampers as well as driving and riding in cars with them, I’ve noticed they use too much gas pressure. This gas pressure force has to be exceeded by the compression force before the piston can start to compress. So it requires a certain size of rock, bump, undulations, etc. before this undamped compressive force to start creating piston velocity and, therefore, damping. This undamped compressive force makes for poor ride quality because the tires are skipping over the disturbances rather than absorbing them. This is in the B6, B8, B12 and B16 conventional and damptronic versions. One common complaint from people with Bilstein’s is their harshness. No two people have the same tolerance for harsh ride quality but when it’s the majority of owners who say it’s too harsh you know it’s not coming from one person with a low tolerance for ride quality. To get ride quality similar to Bilstein’s, I’d have to raise the reservoir pressure on my MCS 2WRs to 250-275 psi and then I’d get the same skipping as Bilstein dampers. I run 100 psi on the streets and 150-175 psi on track. If you’re wondering why I have 2WRs instead of 3WR, I decided to go with three 2WR setups over one-two 3WR setups. |
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06-07-2024, 08:15 AM | #18 |
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Sounds like OP doesn't necessarily daily his car, but I think definitely worth highlighting for others that read this that this will be a large factor in deciding what to do. This is coming from someone who (between two F80s) went stock > MP HAS > Bilstein B16D > MCS 2WNR > MCS 3WR. Both MCS setups have the same spring rates (800 / 700 coilover). My F80 is my track car and daily car, commuting from suburb to city every day. And I wanted my cake and eat it too -- I wanted optimal track performance in a non-dedicated track car, AND maximal tolerability on the street with those spring rates where I don't feel like I'm abusing myself and the car with harshness on crappy roads. (And I'll say that I think I have a decent tolerance for a harsher ride). If that describes your situation, and you envision yourself sticking with this hobby and wanting to get faster (and you can budget it), then go with a remote setup straight away, as financially painful as it may seem up front. I can only speak to MCS, but with its ability to adjust gas pressure, those spring rates on the street are actually tolerable. It's really pretty remarkable (my 78 year-old mother even spontaneously commented on it without prompting ). Had I known what I know now, I certainly would have skipped all those intermediary suspensions. And if I was going to blow the money on remotes, the addition of 3-way was a relatively small increase (obviously everyone's budget is different) over 2-way.
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06-07-2024, 08:52 AM | #19 |
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Since my first set of MCS 3WR, we've had two more sets of suspension and all have been MCS 3WR from the get-go.
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06-07-2024, 12:58 PM | #20 |
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06-07-2024, 01:03 PM | #21 | |
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06-07-2024, 01:20 PM | #22 |
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The problem I have with 2-3-4 way is the difficulty in setting them up. The 4-way are near impossible to set up on your own.
The 3-way are extremely difficult for like 99% of users. The 2-way are also quite difficult to get them right on your own. It can get quite frustrating to get all 4 corners right for the average user. The 1 way ones, adjusting usually 70/30 are simple to use and most people will figure it out. I think outgrowing 1 way ones is a good problem to have. Cursing the impossibility of figuring out the 3-way ones, which I presume 99% of people will go through is not a very good place to be after having spent big money or even worse letting a local muppet garage do it, them doing it wrong and then getting put off after having spent all that money. |
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