Vtt crank hub slipped, turbos failed

[jacobe92]

Originally Posted by ASRman

Stop being so defensive. You released a product promised it being a fix and now telling People there is a better version that won't slip after seeing V1 fail. Hundreds of people have paid you for V1. You're lucky there has not been a lawsuit filed. Do the right thing refund them all or agree to upgrade them all to V2 free of charge and maybe people will stop hating on VTT. Genuinely feel bad for V1 owners right now.

I'm not taking sides but that's not a fair statement to make either. Product/Mod manufactures are always improving what they're selling. Casing point, V1 to V2. "If you're not moving or growing, then you're dying." It just so happen they're in the crank hub fix and turbo business. When something does go wrong. Parts, labor rental, time, pain and suffering are to the roof. My advise to this said vendor, revised the fine print. Don't guarantee it's 110% bullet proof.

[c4ss]

Originally Posted by Smee

Can you post the links to this "way to many hubs failing" please.

Can't post links to threads that have been deleted

On another note, I just subscribed to this thread. Can't wait for the V3 crankhub fix!

[///BMW Junkie]

Originally Posted by c4ss

Can't post links to threads that have been deleted

On another note, I just subscribed to this thread. Can't wait for the V3 crankhub fix!

Oh man LOL

[aBMWfan]

Originally Posted by jacobe92

I'm not taking sides but that's not a fair statement to make either. Product/Mod manufactures are always improving what they're selling. Casing point, V1 to V2. "If you're not moving or growing, then you're dying." It just so happen they're in the crank hub fix, turbo business. When something does go wrong. Parts, labor rental, time, pain and suffering are too the roof. My advise to this said vendor, revised the fine print. Don't guarantee it's 120% bullet proof.

Disagree apparently the v1’s didn’t bite at all, test products before selling them! You would have different opinion if you bought v1 yourself

[drgmt]

Originally Posted by aBMWfan

Disagree apparently the v1’s didn’t bite at all, test products before selling them! You would have different opinion if you bought v1 yourself

Given that the issue is intermittent and often doesn't occur even on heavily modified cars running a stock hub - did you ever think that they did test it and couldn't make it spin ?

The law of probability is against picking anything up in the developmental stage given the overall rarity of this problem.

[aBMWfan]

Originally Posted by drgmt

Given that the issue is intermittent and often doesn't occur even on heavily modified cars running a stock hub - did you ever think that they did test it and couldn't make it spin ?

The law of probability is against picking anything up in the developmental stage given the overall rarity of this problem.

Perhaps checking to see if it made grooves on the crank where it attaches would've been a good indicator it was doing what it was supposed to do. If it was just a couple rare cases due to "install variance" that would be a different case

[sly1types]

Originally Posted by blackey

So Vargas makes turbos and crankhub that both fail a month apart. Those are the facts and I don't believe even Vargas disputes that. In addition it looks like there was more damage (maybe or maybe not from the failures) and the engine is most likely coming out for a rebuild.

Did I ask for a refund for the parts? You betcha. I think it would have been the least they could do considering their failed parts has put me out 7K and counting. And if offering to not post my experience on the internet was the only way to get me the refund so be it. I'm not going to apologize for trying to minimize my financial impact due to their products. As is I purchased a set of turbos for $3500 and sold them for $2000 so I get to eat $1500 plus shipping for the pleasure of a set of turbos that lasted all of 3000 miles on the street and 1 track session.

The crankhub is an entirely different story as we're still digging into what caused what on the motor, but at a minimum it's a $2500 install bill for a crank hub fix that didn't work.

And I think the comment from Chris on the refund was something of the fact that "Tony has only refunded 1 person since he's been there and that was a customer that had the N54 turbos fail 3 times on him" which also shows where their mindset is/was. It also sounded like there had been multiple V1 failures but they choose not to inform those of us who were early adopters of the Vargas crankhub fix that V1 might not be functioning as intended. Mine didn't bite into the crank at all.

All of that said, I will give thanks to Vargas for extending the warranty to the new buyer of the turbos and offering a V2 crankhub. We don't see eye to eye on what their responsibility was/is, but they did at least make those gestures, which does count for something. Chris has been professional to work with and I do appreciate that as well.

If their CH splines didn't bite, they should refund you the CH and cost of install. You would think they would do a little more testing when they release a product...instead they used the V1 as the test cars until they developed a V2 which may be good.

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Hey guys,

It's true, Bill had some issues with his GC's at the track and is also the first person with a V1 spline lock and CBC that I'm aware of to report slipped crank hub -bummer on both counts.

Bill reached out to me a few days back when the slipped hub occurred, and caught me up to speed with the previous S55 GC issue he had. It's my understanding that Bill had a wastegate malfunction while on the track with his 100 octane track tune, which persisted after the fact (i.e. something went wonky) and upon inspection also saw some leakage from the front turbo (unrelated to wastegate issue). Of course we had him send the turbos to us, we inspected, gave him new housings, did a fresh rebuild and sent them back. In the meantime, Bill had decided to go a different turbo vendor direction -which saddens us, but being realists, of course we know Bill is entirely entitled to put whatever he chooses on his car.

The V1 spline lock failure is unrelated to the turbo issues experienced earlier, and is unfortunate. V2 is far more aggressive and to date zero reported failures of the V2, and as some of you probably read, the V2 is so much more aggressive that we have our no-slip guarantee where if it's installed at an authorized dealer (EAS is where Bill goes, and they're authorized) we'll back it up with a parts and labor replacement guarantee for the spline lock.

We do understand Bill's frustration and we are engaged. Bill has been communicative, and did tell us that he wanted a total refund, else he would go to the forums with his experience -which, again, is well within his rights to share his experiences. We feel that with the turbos we've stood behind our product with prompt engagement and problem resolution, and that it's a bummer that Bill wanted to go with another vendor, but that part is outside of our control.

As to the V1 spline lock failure, when we introduced the V2 we did extend an offer for those who had new V1's to exchange for V2's. I understand Bill missed this (he installed V1) by about a week or two, and didn't want to pay labor to swap out for the V2.

As a show of goodwill, we're willing to send Bill a new V2, and while we think he should have stuck with our turbos, we will as a one-time offer extend the opportunity for Bill to send those back to us for inspection (make sure they're still fresh rebuilt/not installed/not damaged) and extend a new-turbo warranty to whoever purchases Bill's S55 GC's second hand.

While all of this is non-optimal and we hate to see any issues, we also think it's an opportunity to show some people what happens with us when things go wrong. We do our best to work with you -no secret deals to keep things quiet, real world taking responsibility and working with fellow enthusiasts. Bill, we'll get the V2 spline lock out to EAS right away, assuming that you're still interested in that.

Best,
Chris

I didn't hear this offer. I already have V1+CBC , am I sitting on a time bomb? Can you please let me know what should I do? I'm an international customer from Turkey so sending V1 back will also be costly.

[ment4t]

I remember the statement that VTT “broke” their test rig while developing V1.

I was seriously considering purchasing and installing their kit because of their confidence in the initial product.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

I didn't hear this offer. I already have V1+CBC , am I sitting on a time bomb? Can you please let me know what should I do? I'm an international customer from Turkey so sending V1 back will also be costly.

As stated in the V2 release thread, earlier in this thread, and a few other places, shoot me an email if you would like to upgrade to the V2. Simply chris@vargasturbo.com. Will PM you also.


Chris

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by ment4t

I remember the statement that VTT “broke” their test rig while developing V1.

I was seriously considering purchasing and installing their kit because of their confidence in the initial product.

We did break the test rig with the V1, it bit very hard. A limited number of the V1's had issues with hardness, and if it wasn't noticed at install may allow it to slightly spin.

V2's are far more aggressive, so much so they're backed by our no-slip warranty if installed at an authorized shop. We also perform robust QA on them to ensure no material hardness issues can arise.

Chris

[ASRman]

Originally Posted by jacobe92

I'm not taking sides but that's not a fair statement to make either. Product/Mod manufactures are always improving what they're selling. Casing point, V1 to V2. "If you're not moving or growing, then you're dying." It just so happen they're in the crank hub fix, turbo business. When something does go wrong. Parts, labor rental, time, pain and suffering are too the roof. My advise to this said vendor, revised the fine print. Don't guarantee it's 120% bullet proof.

You've just purchased V1 a few months ago spent a few K getting it installed and today your V1 hub spins and has caused catastrophic engine failure. You then read online VTT have released a 'better' hub that apparently won't spin, and has, a more aggressive 'bite', as it is. You then contact VTT who agree to replace your V1 with V2 but unfortunately cannot subsidize any costs of replacing or repairing an engine. You're left out of pocket.

Do you still hold the same opinion?

[Ed_rx7]

Originally Posted by Ed_rx7

So where are those metal filings from?

Any response to this?

[bracer]

We've torn it down as far as I really want to even removing one of the rod bearings and the rod bearing looked good. We inspected everywhere we can and I do not see a source for the metal. Only other thing we uncovered was the teeth on the V1 hub were also very warn especially for 4000 miles. It could be a hardness issue or we've also noticed the tooth chamfer is very different than stock, so hard to tell what caused the wear. It's weird that the wear is only on one side of the teeth, so some metal came from there but not as much as we're seeing.

Otherwise no clue. I'm basically at the spot of either:

1) Pull the engine and rebuilt it with forged internals. All in with install / etc.., I'm looking at 15-20K. I've got 3 quotes to do this. This saves me from some sort of catastrophic failure, but puts the car down for 2 months.

2) Button everything back up with a new crankhub and monitor. Basically we'd flush the system 2 complete times with oil and then monitor the filter to see what we get. If it continues to drop particulate then rebuild it.

I took the opportunity to shop other cars, and for what I need and how I've set up the car, I can't see another car I'd rather have so I'll be keeping this one for at least 3-4 years more. (Work requires a 4 door car). So that's where I'm at. I'm leaning towards #2. One track event should tell the story I think. I'll also do a leak down test, but I can't do that until we have a crankhub installed. I have a few days to decide. Any thoughts?

[f80er]

If it were me I would go #2 as well. Why spend 15-20k if you don't (or may not) have to?

[jacobe92]

I also think option 2 is the better choice if you're only planning to keep her for 3 to 4 yrs. Going forward. You're absolutely right, that's an ugly feeling wondering if it's going to happen again when pushing the car. Reminds me of my own old stupid knee injury from doing Crossfit. Once bitten, twice shy."

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by blackey

1) Pull the engine and rebuilt it with forged internals. All in with install / etc.., I'm looking at 15-20K. I've got 3 quotes to do this. This saves me from some sort of catastrophic failure

It most certainly does not. There's a lot of hack engine builders out there, and nothing is a guarantee. You can do everything right, put good money in, and still blow a $20k rebuild at anytime. I'd vastly prefer keeping the OEM engine if I had a choice.

As others have said, option 2 and good luck!

[Smee]

Originally Posted by ASRman

Smee. There's several cases, I don't like to spread misinformation so I am going by posts I have read personally. Do a search on here and also on various Facebook groups it will not be difficult to find.

**Like Jacobe92 im not taking sides i just like evidence**

well thats the thing, i have been researching this for a long time and thats the issue i have. VTT seem to get a bad rep from a lot of "Word of mouth" complaints that no one seems to back up.... like the classic my mates wifes donkeys friend heard from his financial advisor XYZ... there never appears to be hard evidence like this thread... and when you question those that seem vocal about it you get the "Thread was deleted", no offence but im calling bulls**t... you just couldnt hide that information. it would get reposted and spammed across all forums and Facebook.

From what i can see online, these are all the issues i know with regards to VTT and they all point to the V1 hub

1. This thread - full V1 hub with CBC
2. 2 failed N54 where they wasnt running a CBC
3. 1 post showing that the Splines had laid flat but the post didnt mention he had spun the hub only the spline went flat on install.

Rumour mill would have you believe its a lot more but on what evidence?

Let try another one here.. MAX PSI hub is stop sell because "High Production Cost" and "other manufactures copying and producing the same kit for less". how can it cost MAX PSI so much yet others so little? Insane Performance hub is a knock of of the MAX PSI and is half the price. SRR have taken over the MAX PSI kit same design from same factory so must have the same high costs yet SRR dont seem to have an issue with the costs?

why would MAX PSI pull what is viewed as the best solution on the market?? not wanting to start a massve rumour but was there a massive failure they have hidden, lost confidence in the product and pulled it??? again we will never know as there is nothing online or evidence to suggest such a thing.

Originally Posted by aBMWfan

Perhaps checking to see if it made grooves on the crank where it attaches would've been a good indicator it was doing what it was supposed to do. If it was just a couple rare cases due to "install variance" that would be a different case

this is what its meant to look like after a V1 is removed. Spline marks on the crank.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=304

so does that make this an install issue or a bad batch? i dunno and i guess we will never know





Re the V2 im not sure how it can slip. the splines are more aggressive and made of hardened stronger metal. from speaking to installers its a pig to install and torque up because its so tight from the bite.

Blackey - Sorry to hear about your problems and sorry for crashing your thread! out of your options i think id go for option 2. what HUB are you going to try? cant blame you if yourconfidence in VTT has dropped and go else where. be interesting to hear what you decide.

[Ed_rx7]

I concur, option 2

[allinon72]

I wouldn't want to be in the crank hub solution business...I'm sure the margin is decent, but the volume is low and the risk is through the roof. Every engine problem will be blamed on the product or the installer. I'm not surprised Max PSI got out.

[ASRman]

Originally Posted by Smee

**Like Jacobe92 im not taking sides i just like evidence**

well thats the thing, i have been researching this for a long time and thats the issue i have. VTT seem to get a bad rep from a lot of "Word of mouth" complaints that no one seems to back up.... like the classic my mates wifes donkeys friend heard from his financial advisor XYZ... there never appears to be hard evidence like this thread... and when you question those that seem vocal about it you get the "Thread was deleted", no offence but im calling bulls**t... you just couldnt hide that information. it would get reposted and spammed across all forums and Facebook.

From what i can see online, these are all the issues i know with regards to VTT and they all point to the V1 hub

1. This thread - full V1 hub with CBC
2. 2 failed N54 where they wasnt running a CBC
3. 1 post showing that the Splines had laid flat but the post didnt mention he had spun the hub only the spline went flat on install.

Rumour mill would have you believe its a lot more but on what evidence?

Let try another one here.. MAX PSI hub is stop sell because "High Production Cost" and "other manufactures copying and producing the same kit for less". how can it cost MAX PSI so much yet others so little? Insane Performance hub is a knock of of the MAX PSI and is half the price. SRR have taken over the MAX PSI kit same design from same factory so must have the same high costs yet SRR dont seem to have an issue with the costs?

why would MAX PSI pull what is viewed as the best solution on the market?? not wanting to start a massve rumour but was there a massive failure they have hidden, lost confidence in the product and pulled it??? again we will never know as there is nothing online or evidence to suggest such a thing.





this is what its meant to look like after a V1 is removed. Spline marks on the crank.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=304

so does that make this an install issue or a bad batch? i dunno and i guess we will never know





Re the V2 im not sure how it can slip. the splines are more aggressive and made of hardened stronger metal. from speaking to installers its a pig to install and torque up because its so tight from the bite.

Blackey - Sorry to hear about your problems and sorry for crashing your thread! out of your options i think id go for option 2. what HUB are you going to try? cant blame you if yourconfidence in VTT has dropped and go else where. be interesting to hear what you decide.

I would suggest you join a facebook group called M3 M4 Owners UK, try searching for Vmax VTT spin, I will say no more. Its up to you if you want to close your eyes and pretend nobody else has suffered failure with V1. By all means go ahead and purchase a VTT hub nobody is stopping you. There is no conspiracy here like you have alluded to. VTT V1s are trash, otherwise there would be no need to release a 'better' version.

[Smee]

i am a member of that group and i know the post your on about and even the person who said it even admits there is no evidence (thread/post etc) other than he saw it first hand. even adding that to list thats 5 failures out of hundreds of V1's.

please dont get me wrong i my self would be worried seeing post like this if i had a V1. i just think its harsh that people seem to give VTT a lot of stick.

as for releasing better version... why are we on Iphones 11 or Samsung S10... things change, your approach to solution will change with time. better techniques for manufacturing etc etc the overall idea of a spline is still the same its not like they have given up on their solution, just refined and made it better.

anyway Litchfield and MMR must be shitting it as their solution is a 1 piece hub not pinned / keyed / splined to the crank!!