-SCANS- Car UK M4 VS C63 AMG

[M4TW]

This review is a bit odd in its inception by pitting a factory-supplied C63 AMG against a beaten-up demo M3 picked up from a dealer riding on replacement tires and with brakes needing service.

Admittedly, our test car provided by a local dealer was not a prime specimen. The brakes had seen better days and the aftermarket Michelins were not the softer compound tyres fitted by the factory.

So what tyres were on it? All-seasons, run-flats . Since tires contribute so much to ride and grip, the magazine's conclusions that the M3's ride was rough and that it struggled with traction are questionable, at best.

Then we learn this little tidbit toward the end:

Brakes? Our BMW could do with fresh pads, but it does feature the optional carbon ceramic discs, so we expect more bite, more instant action, more feedback.

So the dealer already cooked a set of tires and wore out brake pads that are supposed to last about 280,000 kms?!?! Wtf? Something isn't right here. The DSC was reportedly constantly lighting up simply driving the M3 at speed on a normal road. Is this why the pads were worn out?

Even comments about the interior are suspect when those impressions are formed when sitting in the C63 AMG with that delightfully fresh factory smell versus who knows what this Portuguese test mule M3 smelled like after being put through hell.

And then there are no tests, no measurements or any objective criteria whatsoever - just a few driving impressions formed by driving the cars on a few back roads.

The C63 AMG might indeed be the better car for the reasons stated and for the people who would be persuaded, but I'd hold out for something a bit more legitimate before drawing any conclusions.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by gthal

Different focuses for the cars IMO. BMW is building a car that focuses more on track orientation. MB is building a car focused more on street use. Both can work well in either environment but there is less focus on the "track" application with the MB as evidenced by weight, transmission, etc.

Absolutely

I mean, I read this conclusion and think "wow, C63 sounds nice, but what I want is the M3. Hands down"

[FTS]

Originally Posted by gthal

BMW is building a car that focuses more on track orientation.

I would not necessarily categorize it as 'track oriented' as I don't think it has the technical aspects of it quite nailed down to qualify for it to be track-oriented, but I certainly would agree that it has more sportier intent.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by FTS

I would not necessarily categorize it as 'track oriented' as I don't think it has the technical aspects of it quite nailed down to qualify for it to be track-oriented, but I certainly would agree that it has more sportier intent.

Since we're parsing words I'll point out he said "the (M3) focuses more on track orientation (compared to C63S)" and not that the M3 is "track oriented".

One thing's for sure, it's the most track capable M3 out the box yet (CSL&GTS notwithstanding, though the CSL brakes were inferior to the F80s steelies). All I needed to do was slip in some RS29s. Factory adjustable camber plates would be the only thing that would've been nice for certain tracks.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by FTS

I would not necessarily categorize it as 'track oriented' as I don't think it has the technical aspects of it quite nailed down to qualify for it to be track-oriented, but I certainly would agree that it has more sportier intent.

Originally Posted by Carl L

Since we're parsing words I'll point out he said "the (M3) focuses more on track orientation (compared to C63S)" and not that the M3 is "track oriented".

One thing's for sure, it's the most track capable M3 out the box yet (CSL&GTS notwithstanding, though the CSL brakes were inferior to the F80s steelies). All I needed to do was slip in some RS29s. Factory adjustable camber plates would be the only thing that would've been nice for certain tracks.

What Carl said

Clearly the M3/4 isn't a "track" car but it is more track focused, IMO anyway, than the C63. It is also the most capable track car to wear an M3 badge IMO also. It is immensely "trackable" right out of the box (with brake pads).

[amanuuh]

i like the responses in this thread much better haha

[gthal]

Originally Posted by amanuuh

i like the responses in this thread much better haha

Why is that?

I personally expect some journalists will like the M3/4 and some will like the C63. it shouldn't be a surprise because... in reality... these two cars are so close in ultimate performance and ability that preference will come down to individual taste, certain subjective qualities and, to some extent, brand loyalty.

The one win for MB is closing the gap with the new C63 compared to the M3. The gap is obviously as small as its ever been and that's a good thing for everyone.

I will make one prediction... when BMW eventually releases the competition package, I bet $$ that it will make improvements to the car that will be meaningful and make the M3/4 even more competitive with the C63S. Just a bet for now but I bet BMW doesn't like winning some and losing some with the M3 and they will respond accordingly. Wait... then MB will respond... wait... then BMW will again... I love cars

P.S. You know who I feel really bad for? Lexus and Audi. Audi at least has a chance to put something together that is competitive but Lexus has already shown its hand and it wasn't enough.

[ybbiz34]

This is like a heavyweight title fight. These cars are trading punches and getting after each other.

The options that are out there today are just incredible. It's a pretty good time to be an enthusiast.

[amanuuh]

Originally Posted by gthal

Why is that?

I personally expect some journalists will like the M3/4 and some will like the C63. it shouldn't be a surprise because... in reality... these two cars are so close in ultimate performance and ability that preference will come down to individual taste, certain subjective qualities and, to some extent, brand loyalty.

The one win for MB is closing the gap with the new C63 compared to the M3. The gap is obviously as small as its ever been and that's a good thing for everyone.

I will make one prediction... when BMW eventually releases the competition package, I bet $$ that it will make improvements to the car that will be meaningful and make the M3/4 even more competitive with the C63S. Just a bet for now but I bet BMW doesn't like winning some and losing some with the M3 and they will respond accordingly. Wait... then MB will respond... wait... then BMW will again... I love cars

P.S. You know who I feel really bad for? Lexus and Audi. Audi at least has a chance to put something together that is competitive but Lexus has already shown its hand and it wasn't enough.

Yeah at the end of the day with these two cars its going to be a toss up. It will probably be close to 50/50 with the reviews on the C63 and M3 but I think the C63S will win most of the time.

Lexus messed up big time with the RC-F. So much potential. Audi probably won't bring anything out to compete with these two. The RS4 was only out for like 2 years wasn't it?

The C63 and M3 are both sitting at the top. If you can get either one of these youre lucky as hell

[gthal]

Originally Posted by amanuuh

Yeah at the end of the day with these two cars its going to be a toss up. It will probably be close to 50/50 with the reviews on the C63 and M3 but I think the C63S will win most of the time.

Lexus messed up big time with the RC-F. So much potential. Audi probably won't bring anything out to compete with these two. The RS4 was only out for like 2 years wasn't it?

The C63 and M3 are both sitting at the top. If you can get either one of these youre lucky as hell

Agreed.

I do think the C63S will win most comparo's with the M3/4 but, as I mentioned, I believe the competition package M3/4 will level the playing field again or maybe step ahead. Speculation at this point.

To me, the C63 and current M3/4 are most comparable with the C63S and M3/4 ZCP being the comparable models. Regardless, until a ZCP M car exists, the reality is there will be comparisons with the C63S and with its extra power and extra good bits will likely come out on top often... especially when reviews are primarily street comparisons.

EDIT: I would still take an M4 over the current C63S given the 10+ track days a year I expect to see. I do believe the car is better suited in that world

[amanuuh]

Originally Posted by gthal

Agreed.

I do think the C63S will win most comparo's with the M3/4 but, as I mentioned, I believe the competition package M3/4 will level the playing field again or maybe step ahead. Speculation at this point.

To me, the C63 and current M3/4 are most comparable with the C63S and M3/4 ZCP being the comparable models. Regardless, until a ZCP M car exists, the reality is there will be comparisons with the C63S and with its extra power and extra good bits will likely come out on top often... especially when reviews are primarily street comparisons.

EDIT: I would still take an M4 over the current C63S given the 10+ track days a year I expect to see. I do believe the car is better suited in that world

I won't disagree with you on it being a better track car.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by amanuuh

I won't disagree with you on it being a better track car.

And for many that's the real appeal. A car that has the feel of a racing car sanitized for street use. The F8X has for sure pushed this further than earlier M3s except maybe the E30. It really feels like a racing car that has had street sanitized parts and tech. added to it and leather glued to it's thin and hollow interior.

The C63 I would guess feel more like a luxury car with performance parts added.

Very different feel and concept but with similar result in many performance metrics.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by solstice

And for many that's the real appeal. A car that has the feel of a racing car sanitized for street use. The F8X has for sure pushed this further than earlier M3s except maybe the E30. It really feels like a racing car that has had street sanitized parts and tech. added to it and leather glued to it's thin and hollow interior.

The C63 I would guess feel more like a luxury car with performance parts added.

Very different feel and concept but with similar result in many performance metrics.

Well said.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by solstice

And for many that's the real appeal. A car that has the feel of a racing car sanitized for street use. The F8X has for sure pushed this further than earlier M3's except maybe the E30. It really feels like a racing car that has had street sanitized parts and tech. added to it and leather glued to it's thin and hollow interior.

The C63 I would guess feel more like a luxury car with performance parts added.

Very different feel and concept but with similar result in many performance metrics.

I think this is a pretty fair description. It was certainly true of the last gen M and C cars.

I will say that in EVERY generation of MB and BMW cars, the one thing MB always owns BMW on is the exhaust sound. The W204 C63 just sounded sensational. The new one will too. IMO, it made the E92 sound wimpy and will likely do the same thing to the F8X.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by gthal

I think this is a pretty fair description. It was certainly true of the last gen M and C cars.

I will say that in EVERY generation of MB and BMW cars, the one thing MB always owns BMW on is the exhaust sound. The W204 C63 just sounded sensational. The new one will too. IMO, it made the E92 sound wimpy and will likely do the same thing to the F8X.

The AMGs do sound like big beasts but personally I prefer the much more exotic, urgent and high strung sound of the previous M engines. It made the AMGs sound lazy and soft in comparison.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by solstice

The AMGs do sound like big beasts but personally I prefer the much more exotic, urgent and high strung sound of the previous M engines. It made the AMGs sound lazy and soft in comparison.

agreed. I recognize we may be in the minority (even on these forums), but I always thought the e92 V8 was spot on. it didn't have the deep rumble of the AMG, which sounded more akin to American muscle cars but way more badass, but the howl of the intake of the S65 when wringing it out was untouched. I also thought the exhaust made incredible noise as well, even stock.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Brosef

agreed. I recognize we may be in the minority (even on these forums), but I always thought the e92 V8 was spot on. it didn't have the deep rumble of the AMG, which sounded more akin to American muscle cars but way more badass, but the howl of the intake of the S65 when wringing it out was untouched. I also thought the exhaust made incredible noise as well, even stock.

I think it sounded good but was too muted and quiet. You could hardly hear it UNLESS you were winding it out. Regardless, this stuff is so personal and subjective anyway

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by solstice

The AMGs do sound like big beasts but personally I prefer the much more exotic, urgent and high strung sound of the previous M engines. It made the AMGs sound lazy and soft in comparison.

I would agree with you that the S65 could also sound phenomenal, with the right set-up. I would'nt say it sounds better or worst then the old 6.2L since it's very subjective, but for sure it hold its own against the competition. While with these new generations, BMW is simply not there in terms of sound, the C63 has'nt lost one bit of it's bark while BMW seems to have capitulated and decided to rely on fake sound into the cabin.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by solstice

And for many that's the real appeal. A car that has the feel of a racing car sanitized for street use.

You know I am a recent convert and loving it. It may be the most track-ready M, however in honesty there is nothing with the M4 that makes me feel even remotely related to a race car. To me it is a luxurious tourer and I have no idea how it going to hold up at the track.

[Damasconian]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

This is like a heavyweight title fight. These cars are trading punches and getting after each other.

The options that are out there today are just incredible. It's a pretty good time to be an enthusiast.

I couldn't agree more. When have enthusiasts ever had so much to pick from? There is good product coming out of England, Germany, Japan, USA...heck even Korea is building somewhat desirable cars.

I spend a lot of time in France for work and can tell you guys we don't want those cars. Well, maybe a few of the Citroens. At least they look different.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I would agree with you that the S65 could also sound phenomenal, with the right set-up. I would'nt say it sounds better or worst then the old 6.2L since it's very subjective, but for sure it hold its own against the competition. While with these new generations, BMW is simply not there in terms of sound, the C63 has'nt lost one bit of it's bark while BMW seems to have capitulated and decided to rely on fake sound into the cabin.

Not entirely true, the S55 as earlier M3s sound best at high rpms. The "problem" is that now there is no need to visit high rpms in DD driving, the S55 is such a beast in the mid-range and here it doesn't sound as exciting. It's not terrible though and an ok price to pay to enjoy the wonderful chassis with the big power. There's no way I'll trade for a C63 or RC-F due to this that's for sure . Do I miss the NA engine, yes but no FI engine is a match for it, Benz or other.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

The C63 handling caracteristics you are talking about are all things that can be experienced only on hard driving, like when tracking, for a daily driver with 3-4 track days a year, those compromise are worth it IMO, at least I think so since I have'nt eard any complain about the handling of the C63, in fact reviewers seems very impressed by it. For all the benefit you get elsewhere, like stupidly awsome engine(performance and sound) and added confort as well as more luxurious place to sit in, I'd get the Merc, that's probably also why they say in the Portugal magazine review that eventhough their choice is the M3, they think the C63 is the better car for 90% of people!

As for the comment about having to pay for the seats, well for less then the price of the BMW Performance exhaust(which does'nt even sound good IMO), you have the AMG sport exhaust + sport seats, so it's clear that the big loser is the BMW costumer if you ask me! And that's without speaking of the free alcantara steering option at Mercedes, which BMW will ask ~$1k for!

And if you are still wondering why I like to come here to compare cars against what should have been my next car(F8x), just go on the E9x forum and you'll realise that not many people there care about the new cars that are coming to the market, I'm not even sure they are aware that the new C63 has started to get reviewed!

Hard driving is not limited to the track. The reviewer didn't even go on the track if you read the article, they did almost all backroad driving which is done quite a bit by people who like to enjoy their cars on the road. If you base your car based purely off your commute then you probably picked the wrong brand.

I didn't say the handling was bad, only that it was noted in the scans as inferior to the M3's. Please argue against points I actually make.

Lastly, you're not comparing cars in good faith here. You've clearly got an agenda as you have nothing but negative things to say about the M3 even in threads that aren't even comparing it to others. You keep bringing up active sound assist as if it's some travesty when it's barely even mentioned in the article and not a panned feature. If that's seriously your best argument as to why this is a terrible car then you need to reevaluate your entire case.