11-08-2013, 11:36 AM | #89 | |
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11-08-2013, 11:38 AM | #90 | |
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11-08-2013, 12:17 PM | #91 |
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I'll add one more thing:
The Porsche 911 (in non-turbo form) has long been "down on power" compared to competitors. I mean, c'mon, a 2014 911 S still has only 400hp - that's less than a 6 year old m3! And that's the up-rated 911. So why is Porsche still a phenom? Because they never focused on power - they focused on what makes them great. They keep weight down, keep a flat six in the rear, and keep the focus on mechanical excellence. I'm not saying the m3 is a competitor for the 911 (a bit), but I look at their evolution in similar terms. |
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11-08-2013, 01:11 PM | #92 | |
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The world has changed. |
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11-08-2013, 01:20 PM | #93 |
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What do we ALL want? We want the Ultimate Driving Machine. I don't care if it has 200hp or 800hp. All I want it to be is a more rewarding driving experience. Part of that experience, for me, is having the ability to mash the gas pedal on the highway and pass other cars with authority. It also includes the ability to know, in the back of my head, that if i wanted to beat that garden-variety muscle car to the next stoplight, I can. Is this infantile? Hell yes.
I could just as easily be on the Caddy or Audi forums bitching about how their cars are either too ugly or too heavy. But I'm not, I am here, because I trust that the BMW experience, the chassis, will be superior to the others. I guess I just do not understand why I have to make compromises - why do I have to choose either chassis or engine? Why can't I have both? |
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11-08-2013, 02:05 PM | #94 | ||
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I think what the F8X has for it as an advantage is the very broad power plateau of the S55 and that the specified output is most likely under rated by a good 20-30ps. Quote:
Probably not, and that is the dissapointing part. Last edited by CanAutM3; 11-08-2013 at 02:16 PM.. |
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11-08-2013, 02:10 PM | #95 | |
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In regards to it being $70k-ish, remember that the base MSRP of a 1998 m3 was $40k. Assuming 3% per year inflation/cost growth, that'd be $62k base for a 2015 model. Now add in typical BMW options, and there ya go - $70k. |
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11-08-2013, 03:31 PM | #96 | |
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On the list for an M4!!
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11-08-2013, 03:51 PM | #97 | |
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11-08-2013, 06:10 PM | #98 | |
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BMW will never make the M3/M4 as good as it can be. They're in it to make money. Reminds me of the episode of Top Gear where they reviewed the Cayman.
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11-08-2013, 06:51 PM | #99 | |
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11-08-2013, 08:00 PM | #100 | |
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11-11-2013, 07:33 PM | #101 |
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For a 4 door , 5 seat multi-purpose car I think F80 M3 is going to remain one of the best
For "track weapon" I think there are better (i.e. more performance / $ choices) in both the used and new car market |
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11-11-2013, 10:24 PM | #102 |
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Some various comments:
Given a choice less weight is always better than more power. One only helps acceleration the other helps cornering and deceleration. Beating the dead horse a bit but it's worth repeating. BMW is not really resource limited with a FI car. Tweak a few lines of code and viola - a trivial 50 additional hp with very little additional reliability concerns. FI changes the dynamic here. BMW simply needs to slot the performance of the car in among competitors and internal offerings. A typical BMW M car probably does have closer to 10% parasitic drivetrain losses than 15% or 20%. This is based on both literature, test and simulation efforts. I most often use 11% in my simulation efforts for M cars. However this is clearly not a large enough factor to account for the performance of some clearly underrated cars such as the E92 335i and F10 M5. As also stated prior the new M4 is IMHO based on both some reasoning and history very likely to be underrated by about 20-30 hp. Unfortunately, the margins by which the BMW M3 has been a class dominating car has and will continues to shrink. "First world problems" here with so many more legitimate competitive choices for us enthusiasts...
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11-11-2013, 10:29 PM | #103 | |
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11-12-2013, 12:31 AM | #104 | |
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mustangs are going to always be better performance cars for the money. same with vettes. although they lack in other areas |
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11-12-2013, 10:22 AM | #106 | |
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A good tune from a reputable tuner will always bring on power sooner, smoother, and keep it on consistently higher in the RPM range. The last few cars I have owned I have had an aftermarket tune and it dramatically improved not only the peak horsepower but the day-to-day driveability, making the car seem refreshed and more alive. This includes the tune I had for my 2007 335i Coupe. |
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11-12-2013, 11:18 AM | #107 |
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Really? My experience has been that the turbolag is either increased or maybe just more noticeable and that with a 335is n54 dinan stage II
I have had others agree with me on this. I have read lots of posts here when people with turbo cars say they have no lag but I have never driven a turbo car that I didn't notice lag in, perhaps different driving technique? or denial? I sure hope that this new engine in the F8x M's is turbolag free. |
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11-12-2013, 02:33 PM | #108 | |
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1. Turbo lag is the time it takes for the turbo to spool up AND produce power from the time you hit the gas pedal. It is almost entirely a function of turbo size, target PSI, and exhaust pressure/speed, though other things impact it too (speed/restriction of intake can impact it, but not nearly as much). That being said, a tune is not going to change the turbo size or exhaust flow - at least, it's not going to make the exhaust flow less! (the point is to get more power, after all, right?) So your turbo lag is not going to increase with a tune. However, your target PSI might increase which leads us to... 2. The second thing is what you are observing: the difference between baseline engine power and fully spooled/loaded power grows. Now at 2500 rpms instead of your turbo targeting 6 psi it's targeting 12. It's aiming to generate a lot more power and spools a lot more as well. So suddenly you are feeling a much bigger difference, occurring over a bit more time, in the engines naturally-aspirated initial power when throttle is applied compared to it's F/I power once the turbo is spooled up. It feels like lag, but it's not that it's taking the turbo so long to spool, it's just that the power differential is greater than it was stock. Just my .02 |
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11-12-2013, 03:33 PM | #109 | |
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Yes, I agree. Bottom line is that the lag exsists and does becomes even more noticeable with a tune for the reason you stated. |
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11-12-2013, 04:15 PM | #110 |
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Putting conversation back on track...
...I was trolling the F30 forums and it seems those guys are seeing no more than 30hp additional to the wheels with a tune. Kind of disappointing, for sure. The tuned N54 engines would blast out 50-75hp over a baseline car all day, no wonder they kept those engines for the 335is. But this makes me wonder if BMW won't leave a lot on the table for the aftermarket for the F80. Unless this motor is seriously underrated and/or there is a lot of power untapped by the aftermarket, I am just going to have to pass on the M3. Especially for $75k+. |
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